are Schencks and Van Nydecks the same family?

+8 votes
1.4k views
I was asked about Schenck-12 (does he qualify for New Netherland Settlers project & is his the lowest number - yest and yes, but...)

I'm a little concerned we might have two folks/families getting confused though. Any source information for how Van Nydecks & Schencks are the same group?

Thanks!
WikiTree profile: Marten Peterse Schenck
in Genealogy Help by Liz Shifflett G2G6 Pilot (633k points)
reopened by Living Schmeeckle
oy - I assumed since they were asking, they had info that he settled in New Netherland. I've been looking at the profiles proposed to merge... found one that showed he died in the Netherlands. Unless he died there while visiting after having settled in New Netherland...

No. He doesn't meet the criteria to be included in the New Netherland Settlers category.

This Marten appears to be the father of the immigrant, although I show one source that says that Marten immigrated in 1650.

He has at least three known children, possibly four, all of whom married and settled in America.

So I think it is likely that the family all arrived together, parents Marten and Maria included. Although the oldest adult son Roelof may have instead simply brought his younger siblings with him.

Here is an old source page from 1999. For some reason the name here was repeatedly  listed as Schneck, although virtually all researches say Schenck.

from Manhasset - The People.
http://www.manhasset.org/history/18c-b.html

The Schneck family settled in the present Strathmore area and eventually included all of Munsey Park and large land areas in Strathmore Vanderbilt and North Hills. The head of the family was Roeloff Martense Schneck. He had one son, Martin, who left his two sons a parcel of land that was purchased by his father from the Halsted Patent.

----

In fact, Marten's son Roelof had a large number of children, and several wives.

But that gives us the clue that the son Roelof Schenck purchased the Halsted Patent.

So anyway it appears to me that the family immigrated all or in part in the 1650s, when the children were young adults and late teens.

As for the father Marten specifically, he is known by both names, Martin Schenck, Van Nydeck, as was his father Peter in the Netherlands. I take it as most likely that the family adopted the surname Schenck at some point in the 1400s, with the Netherlands farm or estate that the family is from being Nydeck, hence, from Nydeck.

If you look back on the ancestor tree into the 1400s, you can see that the birth surname for those oldest generations is Van Nydeck, with Schenck evidently as present as well as an adopted surname.

Then there are a couple generations in the tree in the 1500s in which the Van Nydeck is dropped altogether, but then picked up again much later by Marten. So, this could be a case in which Van Nydeck was dropped in error from those two older ancestors.

Supporting the above is my best old source, which lists  Martin Schenck \Van Nydeck\ as son of Peter Schenck \Van Nydeck\ and Johanna \Van Scherpenzeel\.

That source was:

ANNE  GROVES, C/O LINEAGES INC, 1995, Broderbund WFT Vol 2 Tree #3304.  (PO BOX 417, SALT LAKE CITY, UT 84110), Date of Import: Jun 4, 1999  note: has name Martin Schenck \Van Nydeck\.

However, the large number of trees from that same era had him simply listed as Marten Schenck, and left out the Van Nydeck part altoghether. Gven that we do not have any Van Nydeck LNAB variants here to merge, I am inclined to just leave Marten, his father Peter, and his grandfather Derick, all as Schenck, rather than change it to something else like Van Nydeck for birth, of which we are not certain.

However, I would change the Van Nydeck part on Marten from a current last name to an aka instead. Because if anything, he dropped the Van Nydeck later in life, especially if he immigrated.

And for his children, including Roelof, none of them ever used the Van Nydeck variant, that I can see. Even the Anne Groves source lists Roelof simply as Roeloff Martensen Schenck. No Van Nydeck.

So, his children, and virtually all descendants going forward (with perhaps a few careful exceptions), should be Schenck.

And so then the bottom line of all this discussion is that this Schenck-12 should be the final LNAB PPP to merge all the duplicates into.

Just adding my 2 cents from what I ran across when searching this family.

Martin, son of Jan Martense Schenck has sometimes been confused with this Maarten Schenck vanNydeggen,

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maarten_Schenck_van_Nydeggen  The source info for him might be worth looking at.  

Jan Martense Schenck's home is a recorded Historical home (Along with the related Wyckoff House)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jans_Martense_Schenck_house

Again his source info might be worth a look.

I still struggle with sorting this stuff out so I am happy to defer and learn.
Exciting stuff!

Michael, the Wikipedia famous Maarten Schenck van Nydeggen is the WikiTree profile here below, as it was imported on this same Schenck family line we are discussing

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Schenck-26

I detailed his profile a bit. But I cannot vouch for any of his family as it is.

3 Answers

+2 votes
See my comment on the profile (both in the comment box and in the bio) of Van Scharpenseel-1. The secondary source is GENI but it refers to a lot of other research and sources - apparently this is a baffling line / combination of Schenk van Nydeck; and it is still currently being researched ... seems to me (I'm a novice and do not take my word for it) that the father only made it halfway to New Amsterdam, and that the Van Nydeck - connection applies to one of the female forebearers (might have been an remnant of a important family); on arrival in New Amsterdam the final LNAB would mostly likely be Schenck. The rest seems to be embellished romantized fiction.
by Philip van der Walt G2G6 Pilot (171k points)
I see lots of fiction too. Johanna van Scharpenseel's ancestry seems to go back to a van Scherpenzeel living in New Amsterdam in 1472, which looks quite impossible to me. There's a lot of copy paste stuff here, i.e. references to Ancestry profiles that reference other Ancestry (worldtree) profiles, with no real source whatsoever. I have a temporary subscription there to find real records for my own ancestors, but what I found about Scherpenzeel and variants is all unsourced.

While researching a related question, I found a female Marten Schen(c)k on the Gelderland archive site:

http://www.geldersarchief.nl/zoeken/?mivast=37&mizig=128&miadt=37&miaet=18&micode=0176_1268.2&minr=16633121&milang=nl&misort=last_mod|desc&mizk_alle=marten%20schenk&mip1=marten&mip2=schenk&miview=ldt
Makes sense - that's what I meant that it would refer to a female line but dropped or disconnected when or even before the Schenck's arrived in New Amsterdam ... I agree (once again) that there is a huge amount of algorithmic falsification of genealogical history through the indiscriminate harvesting of data from and on the internet, compounded by the massive ongoing GEDCOM bombing. I only use GENI or other Ancestry worldtree profiles to get to the primary records. In the case of my own proginator Gaele Andriesz (the first Van der Walt in the Cape of Good Hope in 1727, South Africa - see Andriesz-6) we haven't as yet managed to find baptismal records as the church only started keeping records 1 year after his birth. So now I also find (as with your example of 1472) Van der Walt's going back into the late middle ages in Friesland which is totally inaccurate. Unfortunately many databases require subscriptions and I'm still a rookie genealogist.
True, and even a relatively recent event like Marten's birth in 1584 is impossible for me to verify on-line. For both Doesburg and Muiden there are no relevant films for that time on FamilySearch, nor records on the regional archive sites.

There may be old books in the archives themselves, or old genealogies with proper sources, but I haven't seen those yet. FamilySearch has a lot of interesting books on-line. I'm reading a German one on this family right now.
seems as if my concern that two families were being inappropriately merged is unfounded.  Also, the comments make it clear that his children used the surname Schenck, so we can do final WikiTree IDs for them at least.

Should Marten's final WikiTree ID be Schenck-12 or something else?
I'd leave it at Schenck-12. If he were part of the noble family I'd use Schenck van Nydeck or van Nydeggen as the LNAB, but his profile on WeRelate.org made me change my mind:

http://www.werelate.org/wiki/Person:Martin_Schenck_%282%29
I agree.
+3 votes

As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no evidence for the parentage of the three Schenck siblings who immigrated to New Netherland in 1650, except for their patronymic "Martens."  The question is, what is the identity of this Marten.

There has been a lot of hot air generated about this family, with embellished speculation supporting an alleged royal ancestry.  I would like to find out that this alleged royal ancestry is true, but I hope that everyone will agree that, here at WikiTree, we need evidence.

So let's look at the evidence:

Point #1.  The 1883 book, The Rev. William Schenck, his ancestry and his descendants, page 23, states that Marten, son of General Peter Schenck van Nydeck, was born 7 Aug. 1584 at Doesburg.  (Internet sources give Muiden as his birthplace, with the same birthdate.)

This 1883 book then tentatively supposes, without a shred of evidence, that this Marten Schenck was the father of the three Martens siblings who came to America in 1650.

This 1883 Schenck genealogy can be accessed at familysearch.org: https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=16806&disp=The+Rev.+William+Schenck%2C+his+ancest 

For those with a subscription, it is also available at ancestry.com: http://search.ancestry.com/search/db.aspx?dbid=15321

---

Point #2.  There is a thread about this Schenck ancestry at the soc.geneaglogy.medieval forum here:  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/VR9l_oUN7MM

The general thrust of this thread is to support the claimed royal ancestry of alleged ancestors of Martin Schenck van Nydeck.  In other words, it appears that there is a royal ancestry for members of the noble Schenck family, but not necessarily for the family in America.

---

Point #3.  On the thread cited in Point #2 above is the following warning:

"The claimed Schenck van Nydeggen ancestry of the two Schenck families of colonial New York was shown to be unproved and very unlikely by William J. Hoffman, the leading Dutch-American genealogist, in "An Armory of American Families of Dutch Descent: Schenck," The New York Genealogical and Biographical Record 68 (1937):114-118, reprinted in Genealogies of Long Island Families, 2 vols. (Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1987), 2:44-48."

If this is accurate -- a leading genealogist in a leading journal has debunked the royal ancestry of the American Schenck family -- I think that the proper procedure here is to (1) delete "van Nydeck" from Marten Schenck's name; (2) delete all birth and death information, leaving a guesstimate birth year; and (3) detach Marten's alleged parents and add links into the text of a "disputed parents" section of the bio.

by Living Schmeeckle G2G6 Pilot (105k points)
(Philip van der Walt-440 from Smartphone in case I again show up as anonymous) - I would tend to agree Ma(a)(e)rten Schenck was obviously not born VanNeggen but as Schenck or something in that line and was known or got known as from Nijmegen - town to the mid-south of the Netherlands ...

Nydeggen is a town or area and lies in Julich,there a castle named Nydeggen also and also in Julich it´s mentioned in the book 1867 : Geschichte des Herzogthums Julich in Germany.

The van Nydeggen part is most likely just a way of saying were they were coming from ,last name just Schenck and th van Nydeggen or van Nydeck part is just were they or there relatives from long time ago came from, were raised and /or born. Also a castle Nydeggen in Jülich (in oude spellingen ook bekend als Guelich of Gülich, Nederlands: Gulik) ,this is in Germany ,later van Nydeggen changed in ´van Nydeck´ or ´Nijdiggen´,´Nijdeggen´ etc .

I stand corrected.
+2 votes

Per earlier discussion (and this slipped through the cracks until now -- please accept my apology for that), I have created a placeholder Martin Schenck-474 with a "Mistaken Identity" notice, which I have also added to the profile of Martin Pieterse Schenck van Nydeck, as follows:

Martin Schenck was the father of three siblings who immigrated to New Amsterdam around 1650.  The father of these three siblings has often been confused with Schenck-12 -- Martin Pieterse Schenck van Nydeck], who appears to have a royal ancestry.  This confusion goes back to "research" by the unreliable Col. Jhr. W.F.G.L. van der Dussen, "who was a rather well-known genealogist in the Netherlands in the last half of the 19th century... no scientific Dutch genealogist of today accepts Col. van der Dussen's dictums without verification at the hand of the original records."<ref>William J. Hoffman, F.G.B.S., "An Armory of American Families of Dutch Descent," in New York Genealogical and Biographical Record, vol. 68 (1937), p. 115.</ref>
 
According to Col. van der Dussen, Martin Pieterse Schenck van Nydeck "is the Ancestor of the Family in America, being it completely proved to me, by the Arguments that I have received of one of the members of this Family, the 1st Lieutenant of Artillery Alexander Du Bois Schenck van Nydeck of San Francisco, California"  --  quoted in William Hoffman's 1937 article in NYGBR.  
 
Hoffman comments: "One would hardly seem to inquisitive to ask what these 'Arguments' of 1st Lieutenant Schenck consist of, for where the entire case rests on this evidence, it must seem strange that just at this point we are left completely in the dark and at the very instance where the proofs are most decidedly wanted these are entirely omitted.  The request for further proof seems to us the more imperative due to the fact that where Martin Schenck was born in 1584, his supposed son Roelof in America married for the 2nd time in 1675 and had a daughter Neeltje baptized in 1683, that is practically 100 years after the birth of her supposed grandfather.  It is possible--but rather unusual.
 
"The fact that two brothers, Roelof Martensz Schenck and Jan Martensz Schenck and a sister Annetje Martens Schenck came to America in about 1650, does not constitute proof that they had the above named Martin Schenck for a father.  This is especially true when one considers that the surname Schenck is far from uncommon both in the Netherlands and in Germany."<ref>William J. Hoffman, F.G.B.S., "An Armory of American Families of Dutch Descent," in '''New York Genealogical and Biographical Record''', vol. 68 (1937), p. 116.</ref>
by Living Schmeeckle G2G6 Pilot (105k points)

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