Can a Pre-1500 Certified member merge O'Brien-359 into OBrien-12?

+5 votes
174 views
WikiTree profile: Diarmait ua Briain
in Policy and Style by Dennis Gordon G2G4 (4.6k points)
retagged by Darlene Athey-Hill

3 Answers

+7 votes
 
Best answer

Not sure if it is appropriate to make a merge at this time.

In looking at the sources, there is quite a variance of choices for LNAB:

Obrien
O'Brien
Ó Briain
Munster

I don't see any discussion among the PMs as to what the correct LNAB is.  If the LNAB is indeed Briain, then the profile O'Brien-359 will also need to be merged.  If this is the case, OBrien-12 should be merged to the Briain LNAB and not to 359 as this will create excessive redirects.

I would recommend that you start a discussion thread to seek research & consensus on the proper LNAB and post a link as messages to both profiles.  Once the correct LNAB is determined, ALL profiles should be merged into that profile.

by SJ Baty G2G Astronaut (1.0m points)
selected by Pip Sheppard
Also, this post should probably be tagged with Euroaristo & you may consider referencing this page:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:British_Isles_Royals_and_Aristocrats_742-1499
I've added tags for both euroaristo and Irish Roots as it falls within both projects.  I am leaving shortly for a several month trip, and thus don't have time to investigate.  The tag will alert our various project members who can research and take care of this.  Thanks!

I agree with both SJ's and Richard's comments/assessments.  Please start a post, being sure to tag with both Euroaristo and Irish_Roots asking for opinions on what the LNAB should be for the profile.
+3 votes

It seems we have two questions here.

1. Are these profiles the same people? To me I would say yes.

2. What should the LNAB be?

The Annals of the Four Masters for 1118,2 states

In English M1118.2 Diarmaid Ua Briain, King of Munster and of all Leath-Mhogha, died at Corcach-mor-Mumhan, after unction and penance.

In modern Irish M1118.2 Diarmaitt h-Ua Briain, rí Mumhan & Lethe Mogha archena, d'écc h-i c-Corcaigh Móir Mumhan iar n-ongadh & iar n-aithrighe.

So using the language of their time, I would say LNAB should be Ua Briain. The use of h- needs more research.

I have started a side by side English to Modern Irish of the annals at Historical Sources of Ireland

Because this is after 1010 when surnames started to be used in Irish ri's, and nobility, the whole family could be Ua Briain, More research is required

We have also started a page Irish Naming Standards if you disagree or would like to help out.

by Richard Devlin G2G6 Pilot (274k points)
edited by Richard Devlin
Thanks Richard, interesting info - one of the things I love about Wikitree, always learning some new facet of history.

If "ua" is included in LNAB, should it be lowercase or initial cap? (ua or Ua)... Cymru naming guidelines say lowercase ap/ab/ferch (lowercase).

I was hoping that no one would ask that question. I'm not sure. Most of the Annals use Ua,  An etymological dictionary of the Gaelic language uses ua. Looks like another post to start. I'll do some research and see what I can come up with. We also have a new person on Wikitree that understands Modern Irish. I'll see if she knows. 

+1 vote

I requested this merge, writing " O'Brien-359 and OBrien-12 appear to represent the same person because: same name, parent, dates etc." thought it was obvious but it seems that selection of a correct LNAB was a sticking point.

general rule of thumb - both "Ua" and Ó denote a male descendant, "Ua" is used when the name is written in Irish, Ó is what one finds when the name is Anglicized to some extent. When in doubt about the spelling of the name itself as in Ó Briain v: O'Brien, check the name of the clan or sept relative to the period in question - in the case under discussion here, Ó Briain is appropriate. Using the Ó version helps merge the descent line more seamlessly as names change; Ó Briain eventually becoming the better known O'Brien.

re Ó, Ua & mac - "mac" is used in lower case for profiles in the medieval period prior to the general adoption of family names. Some may have observed that the Normans used fitz in this way, often following a given name twice, giving father and grandfathers's names. This system is a big help when locating commonly given names in a descent pattern.

by Valerie Willis G2G6 Mach 7 (72.0k points)
Further note re "Ua" as in male descendant of the previous person - note that Uí denotes the people of a clan, as in Uí Neíll for the O'Neills of Ulster.

Related questions

+3 votes
2 answers
+6 votes
1 answer
118 views asked Jun 20, 2014 in Genealogy Help by Neil O'Brien G2G Crew (470 points)
+5 votes
0 answers
88 views asked Aug 11, 2015 in Genealogy Help by Fred Kokke G2G1 (1.2k points)
+14 votes
2 answers
237 views asked Jun 21, 2019 in Genealogy Help by Valerie Willis G2G6 Mach 7 (72.0k points)

WikiTree  ~  About  ~  Help Help  ~  Search Person Search  ~  Surname:

disclaimer - terms - copyright

...