Stradling Royal descent

+2 votes
EDITED. Some errors in the first version of this post! [Only edits being proposed and/or made now are marking some connections as uncertain.]

I have been reviewing the family of Walter Dennis, to Alice Poyntz.

It is possibly of Magna Carta relevance so Richardson Royal Ancestry, Vol.2 sub DENNIS 13 "Joan (or Katherine) Stradling" pp.433-5 does contain the words "They had three sons" etc, but this is in reference to Joan/Katherine's husband's SECOND wife. Only Walter and John are given as sons to the first wife who has a possible/probable Edward III descent. So far so good.

Background. While doing Edward III descents in recent years we came across a question for further discussion in the future and never came back to it until this week when it came up in a different G2G discussion

We currently have Walter Dennis as a son of a Ms Stradling (first name has some doubt to it) who is probably/possibly a descendant of Edward III. We've had Walter filled in as a "draft" descendant here: but for reasons I forgot to note well I did not put him on the follow through strict listing here:

I thought to look twice when I looked up the old SGM discussions involving Brad Verity and Richardson as active participants. I did not recall any disagreement between them and indeed there was none. So there might be more to this. I will give to example posts most focused on the primary evidence:

1. Denis Howard gave the most complete transcription of a 16th century family pedigree which mentions Alice Poyntz being mother

2. By Rosie Bevan, giving the IPM of Joan the proposed Beaufort grandmother of Walter Dennis:

A lot of the more enthusiastic debate is about other issues in this family tree, but some of these include remarks about chronology. Discussion of these issues certainly did not stop in 2004.
WikiTree profile: Walter Dennis
asked in Genealogy Help by Andrew Lancaster G2G6 Mach 6 (68.3k points)
edited by Andrew Lancaster

A comment was made in the other discussion about Verity's 2004 article. To clarify, one of the main argument in that article is against Alice fitzAlan being mother of our [[Beaufort-6]]. Wikitree is actually following Verity on doubting that relationship. He does not dispute that Joan[/Katherine?] the wife of Edward Stradling was a daughter of Henry Beaufort.

He also does not focus much at all on the Dennis questions in that article. For that we have to see SGM. Examples:

"Apparently, Douglas Richardson needs to have Alice back as Jane's mother(as it is vital to establish the Edward Stradling/Jane Beaufort marriage prior to 1423 in order for Maurice Dennis's wife to have been their daughter). "

"I think there may still be the question of who was the mother of Walter Dennys.  The evidence is suggestive that he was from a first wife of Maurice Dennys rather than the well-documented wife Alice Poyntz, but it is not conclusive - yet."

He also gives evidence to show that Walter was NOT a son of Alice.

So my reading so far for today suggests that not even Verity thinks there is NO evidence at all for Walter being son of Joan, a Beaufort. He just thinks it is uncertain. I presume we should also mark it as uncertain?

Probably this is the most relevant summary for us:

"Without being able to definitively establish either Maurice Dennys' first marriage or the identity of this first wife using 15th-century evidence, we have to try and rely on estimated chronology to determine if the 1623 Visitation identification could be accurate.  Sir Edward Stradling was born in 1389, and Maurice Dennys was born in 1410.  His first marriage took place after 1422 and before 1437.  His son Walter Dennys was born by 1436, and perhaps as early as 1431.  Chronology does work for Maurice's first wife to have been a daughter of Sir Edward Stradling.

"But could she have been a daughter of Jane Beaufort, Sir Edward's wife?  That chronology gets much tighter.  We know that Sir Edward and Jane were married by 1423, and that their eldest son was born about
that year.  It's possible they had a daughter prior to their son, perhaps as early as 1420.  Establishing Jane Beaufort's birth year becomes crucial here - if the 1480 IPM at the PRO is indeed hers, she could not have been born much earlier than 1405, and certaonly not before 1400.  This makes a birth of a daughter prior to 1420 less and less likely.  So if Walter Dennys was born about 1431, Jane Beaufort could not have been his grandmother.  However a birth for him closer to 1436 could just make it possible (if both Jane Beaufort and Katherine Stradling were teenaged mothers).

There's a lot of 'ifs'.  I agree with the earlier posts in this thread made by Rosie Bevan, Peter Stewart, John Higgins and others. Douglas Richardson has not produced sufficient evidence to warrant the
certainty with which he presents this line of descent in his PA3 manuscript.  His "recent research" - the HOP article on Sir Gilbert
Dennys which states that Bishop Henry Beaufort of Winchester was an
overseer of Sir Gilbert Dennys's will - does not prove anything.  The
Bishop of Worcester was also a supervisor of the will. 

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