Beware of Fake Ancestries on Find a Grave

+69 votes
1.9k views
Just recently I noticed that a proven "fake ancestry" of Abraham Lincoln  has been recreated on Find A Grave.   When presented with the facts, the memorial owner basically told me I was "wrong" and did nothing.

Once again, I am starting to feel like we should not put any faith into what we see on Find A Grave unless there is a headstone photo or other documentation attached.   And even in that case, you need to validate any relationships shown.   Currently I am working with a conflated profile on Wikitree that exactly mimics a conflated profile on Find A Grave.

I see more and more "new" genealogists who put too much faith into what they see on Find A Grave, and I see too many data doctors changing data to match what is on Find A Grave.
in Genealogy Help by Robin Lee G2G6 Pilot (846k points)
Lately I have been finding a lot of Find a Grave entries that include obituaries. I love those, and am grateful to whoever does the work to track down the obit.   I don't think we can paint the whole Find a Grave system as bad, it depends on the individual doing the documentation.   I have found many errors in books too.
I did not intend to indicate that all of Find a Grave is bad, this is just a reminder about using it as a "source".   And a heads up that some "fake ancestries", that Wikitree has worked hard on to document and dispel, are now showing up on Find A Grave.
I agree, Wendy, obits at FaG are gold.  I've seen quite a few lately that include a death certificate, too.

I usually add the memorial to the sources for the sake of thoroughness, with a comment about whether there's a headstone image, whether the headstone has complete dates or just the years, nonsense in the text, etc.
Leave a flower and include the information that it's wrong.  Then when that flower gets off the main page, add another flower.  And another.
I treat FindAGrave with the same scrutiny as any source, print or online. I now recognize names of  certain FAG volunteers who are careful and thorough. When I search endlessly for a death certificate--and then discover a FindAGrave memorial in a random state, where the subject was probably in the care of a child-- I'm always grateful for the hint to follow.
My entire life my parents would drive to certain cemeteries to place flowers on the graves of our family that has gone before us. Grave-markers on some were maybe non-committal, and only that my parents knew where the spot was and then they honored it quietly with us 'hanging' around or in the car on the road in the cemetery. This was 'the only way' people learned about their family members that had gone on before them. My mom eventually got brave enough to begin to order birth certificates of nearest relatives, her mother who'd died when she was three, etc. Those would remain in a lock box or someplace safe.

Now we have the internet, and people who are very enthusiastic about a pastime that brings grave-markers to person who may not be able to travel to their location. And then there is the advent of this great source, Wikitree, and other genealogy programs.

I am really familiar with many of my family from myself back about four or five generations, but cousins and their children, Aunts or Uncles, well only do I recognize them from the resource such as FAG or more and more articles and others who've created a family tree, a living breathing source specially when modified frequently.

There is historical data pouring out of small towns, villages, rural groups everywhere. The only place I haven't seen any of this yet is Africa or South America, and various others, such as Iran and Pakistan, which I, after taking a DNA test see I have genetics that lead me to the middle east north of Saudia Arabia. Who knew?! Not me.

I work with Norway Heritage and also have used Danish Family, the persons who respond to me are very quick in their response and really very knowledgeable. Correct and guide me when I veer off.

I think as more of us have our own family tree created 7 - 10 generations out, we've worked with the  tree enough where confidently we know what is expected from us and have more confidence to enter information and know what not to put in the bio.

Sometimes when working on a profile initially, I'll put information in the bio area and go back and find others have edited it and made it 'pretty' (my dad's way of saying), That is good. Collaborative effort!

It is important to know a person whether they are famous or not. Did they languish joyously at home near their kitchen table smoking a cigeratte and shooting the breeze? Is that going to be known to anyone other than immediate family? Maybe that is the best thing they did in their lives, be in the house near the kitchen table and all of the family knew where that person was. Sometimes that is everything to a person and what a good thing that is. But where would that be documented.

Good to help new persons pick through data, and make sure of accuracy's.  For famous people, such as Abe Lincoln, isn't all of the famous profiles created? Is there any left to start up? I imagine the persons who first began them and how that must have been for everyone. Exciting and daunting!
No source is perfect just like no person is perfect! And people are the ones who create these sources. I have found errors in just about any source we use; census data, marriage records, draft registrations, etc., etc. That is why I almost always try to get 3 to 4 sources to backed up my data. Sometimes that is not possible on the first pass, but that is why we continue to research.
Find a grave had every thing about my grandfather correct with photo of his grave marker except it listed a woman unknown to our family as his wife and not my grandmother's name. Initially I thought who in the world is this woman and it quite upset me. I realize now findagrave is not exactly a reliable source .
I had a person listed as my G3 Grandmother who was on the FAG as the G2 mother. I added her to my tree, and another wikitreer knew that name to not be correct for our family and advised me to change it. I begged and pleaded with her to let me keep the one that was there because simply, I like the name better than the one she said belonged to my family. I laughed and communicated with the FAG source person and asked her to check the records. She found a discrepancy and made the change. So I began looking for the correct person with the name I did not want to use, and have come up against a brick wall. Then later I noticed the FAG had gone back to the original name of the person that I liked and was actually a descendant of the Sauyle from the Mayflower. So what did I do, nothing? No. I contacted Governor Scott Walker and Senator Janet Bewley of Wisconsin, because, well I have an issue with racism from several former employers and I am trying to figure out who my predecessors are to discover why persons were so aggressive to me at so many of my jobs. I can only say, I think a lot of people have been trying to figure out who owned who and they want reparations and up front data. So where is the data? For some I do not know. I am waiting for the information to unfold from the data reserve bank I think. It does effect the emotions of persons. It is important to have the right people in the genealogy tree, so as a society we can move forward together. I do like the Sauyle name, but I still don't think I can use it. I think I have to use 'Samples' because Jennie says so.
Hi Jodi, is this a matter of accurately confirming a relative and your former employers were aggressive towards you because of who that particular relative was?  Did they know each other? I'm trying to understand what happened there with find a grave.
I have been working on my genealogy for a long time, but the old fashioned way. My parents would travel to cemeteries and obtain gravemarker information and then look for birth certificates, etc. That is how it use to be, and so I am just saying that it is important to respect the people who are going to cemetery's and taking pictures and taking the time to look person's up and add a little bio. I really do appreciate that which they do on FAG. But as typical errors do occur, like the Sauyle name verses Samples. That said, there was a lull in my researching my genealogy, and I was head-long back into because of an accumulation of aggressiveness from persons at my employers over a ten year period when it appeared to be something to do with racism. Technology being what it is, I began to wonder if I had been categorized in a data base of possibly black and I did not even know it. As stated, mistakes or errors do happen. Affirmative Action Plans did not work for me in the work place. Any how it is interesting the topic began with an Abe Lincoln profile. I did not really connect that aspect of it. Just thinking we should be kind to those that do the research and offer a bio on FAG. It is a very nice thing to have. That is my opinion.
It has been a long time since I took anything on f-a-g as FACT unless there was a headstone that was actually  legible..and I think we, wikitreeers  use it first as a source and not just a place to maybe find a hint as to where to look also.  And another one with  misinformation, but I go there a lot for HINTS  is rootsweb.com which is aka: ancestry........
FAG is good for finding missing dates, particularly Date of Death/Burial since they are usually based on what is carved on the stone.

I understand that there can be errors there, and I've found a few, but I am willing to use F-A-G dates if my other sources don't have any.

At least F-A-G can point you in the right direction.... sometimes.

rsl
Absolutely correct, FaG is good as a second source for information you hold from another source, and for a reasonably accurate record of where someone is buried, but so often, the material presented there is the same source you already hold for that person.

If there is a photo of the gravestone, it becomes a little more trustworthy (IMO), but given that people have been moved from one cemetery to another, even that can be suspect.

19 Answers

+47 votes
 
Best answer
This is why we have the capability to mark it as a false error. This will remove it from the report unless someone modifies the FAG entry.

I tend to use a FAG to confirm or to give hints, not to "verify" info. If I have a source that conflicts with FAG and they don't have a source I can check, I ain't changing it. LOL
by Steven Tibbetts G2G6 Pilot (406k points)
selected by Jerry Dolman
I use Find A Grave in the same way too, to give hints and as a starting place.

I still don't like the Data Doctors error report. So what if it gives me the ability to mark it as a false error. That just makes more work for me, for very little return on my time investment. I'd rather that whole class of errors just goes away. We have enough errors on the WikiTree database alone without trying to compare it to another website.
This thread is about a more serious problem than that. It is about FAG memorials for people who did not exist or including false family connections.

Like this one: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/148065908/charles-de_longueval-de-sivry (with a list of ancestors which is unfounded and has been rejected by serious genealogists).

Or this one: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/60245318/sarah-gilbert-crockett (did not exist)
+44 votes
Great points, Robin.

I really think that the Data Doctors report should be modified. It's not an error if WikiTree does not match Find A Grave.
by Eric Weddington G2G6 Pilot (511k points)
That's probably why someone insisted that they change it from "error" to "suggestion."

Lucy, I think errors became suggestions before FaG mismatches became either one.  smiley

I pay almost no attention to the FaG Suggestions.  I mark them False, "FindaGrave is unsourced," and move on.  Waste of time.

If the FindaGrave template is used {{FindAGrave|000000|sameas=no}} the error will be prevented. This sameas parameter was meant to be used if a PM uses more than one FAG memorial in a profile (such as using the wife's FAG memorial as a ref on her husband's profile), but I also use it when the dates don't quite align or there is missing death place information that I cannot change at FAG.
Thanks, Natalie!
Are 0's the FG id?
Yes, the numbers are for the Find A Grave memorial ID number.
I find that the Error/Suggestion report is sometimes more useful for submitting edit suggestions to FindAGrave.
+29 votes
I have long been against the suggestions that compare our data to that on FAG. I personally will not even use FAG as a source as long as there is any other source and remove any such "sources" as soon as possible. I continue to find memorials for living people as well as graves listed in the wrong place for people I have proof that they are not buried there. Whenever you start comparing our data to a site that has even bigger quality problems than we do you are asking for more errors.
by Dale Byers G2G Astronaut (1.7m points)
My tombstone is already in place in my favorite cemetery where many of my ancestors are buried.  But the last date hasn't been entered yet.  I keep looking for my find-a-grave entry, but nobody has created one yet.  Hopefully, they're waiting to find the obituary!
On a similar note, I'm always puzzled when I see Unlisted profiles in cemetery categories.
Just use their site to report the error. They are pretty good about fixing things when brought to their attention.
Roy, with limited time available to me I will not waste it on Find A Grave. If they do not want to improve their quality I will just ignore them as a source.
+28 votes
I do not know if it is a new trend or not. There are Find A Grave memorials which are completely virtual - memorials with no known place of  burial, memorials for people whose death is unknown (we only have a very rough idea of their date and place of death) and memorials for people who did not exist.

Those certainly represent a tiny fraction of the Find a Grave material, but like you I am distressed to see these used as "source" in WikiTree profiles. A Find A Grave memorial (with no source and no picture) is not proof that a person existed, and still less that the family connections represented with the memorial are valid.

I hope this thread is not going to be hijacked by the old subject of the database suggestions about date discrepancies and the like between Find A Grave and WikiTree (which has its merits but has already been frequently discussed in other threads), because this is a different subject entirely and deserves its separate discussion.
by Isabelle Martin G2G6 Pilot (558k points)
+23 votes
I don't know where the people get their info, but the spelling of my grandmothers maiden name was totally wrong. I was shocked at how poorly a job some people can do. Why do they even bother?

With Find a Grave, look at the headstone photo and ignore the rest.

Harold
by Harold Robertson G2G2 (2.4k points)
And even then, Harold, some of dates in the photo might be wrong. Always better to back the photo dates (where they can be read) with other sources. I have an ancestor whose gravestone has a correction cut right over the old date. The death certificate gave the correct year.
Also, there have been cases where people attach the wrong person to the headstone. Or there are two entries for one person, with headstones that are for entirely different people and in different cemeteries.

IMHO, Find A Grave is at its best when manned by cemetery volunteers/photographers and people working specifically from cemetery records. There are people who love working and volunteering in these old cemeteries. It should be a great database of gravesites, not a free genealogy site with poor editors.
I agree completely, Dina! And the issue here is some users using Find A Grave as a repository for their sometimes inaccurate ancestry, without any links to actual burials. This should not tarnish the reputation of the volunteers who spend so much time visiting and photographing cemeteries and then sharing their data.
Thanks Pip. That's good advice.

"This should not tarnish the reputation of the volunteers who spend so much time visiting and photographing cemeteries and then sharing their data."

I totally agree Isabelle. Sometimes trying to find the correct info is far worse than trying to find a needle in a haystack because there seem to be so many fake needles. smiley

Harold

Thank you! I'm learning more fascinating things every day.
My great-great-grandfather's gravestone has the wrong years for his birth AND death.  The gravestone appears too modern to have been erected when he died, and is shared with his wife, two children, and a son-in-law.  The dates that were engraved may have been someone's best guess long after he died.
Harold, I find names not spelled correctly in several different places. IMHO I think it is just someone that was  not careful and checker their sources.

I guess I should be more forgiving. My doctor once told me I was anal, later he denied it and said he said OCD...smiley

K_Yager, I can't imagine not double checking for something as permanent as a gravestone, but I suppose it's possible they had no one to ask or a way to double check, and I think for a lot of people most things are "close enough." I'm from the measure three times, cut once, then measure again crowd.smiley 

I'm a retired graphic designer and once I had go create the layout for a bronze plaque that would grace a public monument. The text I was given was grammatically incorrect so I went to the vice-president in our organization and told him about it. He told me that the customer had spent so many hours on the text to get something they could approve that he didn't want to send it back to them and just do it the way it was written.

It still annoys me. <shrug>

I helped a friend create the Find a Grave memorial for her father found here (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/169619052/lieu-dang)

They didn't know when he was born since they fled Vietnam in a fishing boat and never had any kind of records. I added that note to the page but anyone who goes in person isn't going to know that cause a date is engraved on the stone.
+17 votes
I have recently seen plenty of wiki profiles where the only source is ancestry trees, that are totally inaccurate.  I was going through some Data Doctor suggestions about the FAG ID not being valid on a wiki profile, which means it references www.findagrave.com, but no ID is stated.  I found plenty of the actual FAG pages, which had different maiden and middle names in wiki profiles.  When I did some research, I found and included the sources, as well as posting a message, that the middle name / maiden name is incorrect in wiki.  FAG matches the family search info, but does not match the ancestry tree sources which is the wiki profile.  The problems exist in wiki very often when they are being created from ancestry tree sources only.  

I have dealt with many Find a Grave people who will not make a change unless you give them a valid source because they have already sourced the info.  Unfortunately, many people will create a FAG page as a way to link siblings, as well as post a cemetery where they 'think' the people may be buried since other relatives are in that cemetery or that is the 'primary' cemetery in the town where they lived.
by Linda Peterson G2G6 Pilot (758k points)
+19 votes
From my viewpoint, FAG has been slowly going downhill for several years now, ever since it was acquired by Ancestry.com, who runs it now I believe.  There was always some errors in the original website, but most contributors usually attempted to follow the rules.  While the rules seem to still be in place, more and more people are ignoring them since that acquisition.  For example, as I recall, there is a rule that all memorials should be for an actual grave; no guesses, no "grandma said", a memorial was an actual grave and people were asked or could ask for photos to be added.  For the last few years its become more noticeable that this rule is being ignored.  Many memorials that have appeared are for people whom no one knows where they are actually buried.  FAG was not supposed to be just another genealogical site, it was supposed to be about graves and recording them.  I believe there are (were) rules requesting that people not upload death certificates or obits but they are becoming fairly common; helpful sometimes yes, but that was not the original purpose.

As mentioned earlier, some people have the urge to make connections and link to anbody that sounds good, without sourcing.  Last year, one day I found that someone had linked a person to one of my great-grandfathers as a daughter.  I know my family very well and he only had one daughter and it wasn't this woman.  I wound up havilng to construct a genealogy for the woman with sources (wasn't easy, she was pretty obscure) and send it to the memorial managers to get them to correct it.  Instead of correcting it, the next day I found that the memorial had been transferred to me, without even asking for it.  So I took it and corrected everything giving links to her correct family.  They may be extremely distant cousins, but I never could find a connection.

Another amusing example is the supposed grave of a pair of 18th century ancestors who it has never been known where they were buried; no marker was ever erected as it could be any of several church cemeteries in Virginia county.  Within the past few years, someone put up a totally modern stone (including a bit of misleading information carved into it) and stated that it was a replacement for the original.  None of my inquiries asking for documentation of an "original" stone were ever answered.  So be careful when the gravestone appears to be considerably more modern than for the burial timeperiod.

Anyway, I too list FAG as a source for profile where I know they are correct, as supported by other sources or a photo of the gravestone; particularly the photos.  I hope to eventually get to including better sources that the ones when I included the FAG memorial just to have a source that someone could check.
by Art Black G2G6 Mach 5 (55.1k points)
I would love to see WikiTree take over Find A Grave in the grave memorial business.

The one of the down sides right now on our part is that our cemetery categories are not easy to work with and it needs more consistency in how they're presented.

WikiTree has all the tools necessary to do exactly what Find A Grave does, but do it better.
+20 votes

FAG as a source, imho, is only valid for where a person was perhaps buried, the approximate date of death, and potential relationships if they're shown on their stone. All of which is fiction unless accompanied by a photo of the gravestone. If there is a lot of good data on the FAG profile, those are leads to sources, not sources. FAG, like many good indexes, is a great source of clues, but not a true source, except as mentioned above. Use With Caution.

by Bobbie Hall G2G6 Pilot (338k points)
+23 votes
Just sharing an experience today.... I found a will and probate notice that had a specific date of death. The date did not match the gravestone, which was very difficult to read (of course it dates from 1845). I sent the FindAGrave manager an email, with a link to the probate about 3 hours ago. I just received a very nice thank you email, and the memorial has been updated.

So....use FindAGrave for clues but look for supporting evidence. And, don’t hesitate to ask for corrections.
by Kay Knight G2G6 Pilot (590k points)
Since I started mt search into my family, I have found names that were not spelled correctly and dates that were different. SO something had to be wrong. I just try to do my best when I meet missed dates and times.. I do not thin there is one set way of beating the errors. Wish the best in your searches.
Jerry,

I found 12 different spelling for my grandmother’s given name, including the incorrect version on her gravestone. There were 18 spellings for her maiden name. My grandfather is etched on a shared stone with her but not buried there so he had 2 FindAGrave entries. Her brother was a teamster killed when thrown from the wagon and cracking his skull on the ice in the first week of January 1895 - there were several local newspaper articles - and both his gravestone and death certificate say he died in 1894 - the local historical society said they had just started recording deaths and were often wrong.

So much just takes a dose of common sense.
Kay I am sorry about your genealogical problems. I kind of understand.I found spelling mistakes the first day I began. Also I have an uncle with a  Welsh names. I think there must have been at least 6 different spellings in the first 7 or 8 sources that I found, I just noted that I was going to call him by the name that he went by from that point on. I would joke with my brother that they spelled Uncle Garman's  name every way possible except with the letter "z"
+18 votes
What Robin Lee, Isabelle and others are saying is while you can use FindaGrave for hints, you have to be cautious.  If there is no picture of a gravestone, or a picture of the person and an obit, you might as well look at family trees on Ancestry or Family Search or Geni or My Heritage.  Maybe the FindaGrave volunteer is meticulous and maybe he/she isn't.  And, even when there is a picture, ask yourself if it matches the memorial that has been created.  Is the information credible?  Use the same scrutiny with FindaGrave that you would use with any secondary source.

There are some really good memorials on FindaGrave and there is a bunch of poppycock.  Anyone viewing the memorial with some scrutiny will know the difference.
by Kathy Zipperer G2G6 Pilot (462k points)
+20 votes
On the continuum of sources, if you're addressing an unsourced profile, and all you can find elsewhere is find-a-grave, it seems like an improvement to add the material from find-a-grave, even when it's unsourced and has no headstone.

BUT -- if finda a grave contradicts something which is already on the profile, it should never be used to change the profile.  

Biographies are fine places to say,  "Original records for John Jones have not been found.  An unsourced Ancestry.com profile says he was born in Ohio, and an equally unsourced Find-a-Grave site says he was born in Indiana.  Further research is needed."

That's why we have an optional heading called ==Research Notes==!
by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (454k points)
+15 votes
My (beginner's) understanding is that FAG may qualify as a primary source for data visible in a photograph of the marker.  I don't list memorials on wikitree if there is no burial and no sourcing.  My family has declined my offer to post memorials of family members with no burial, although it would seem useful to have a minimal explanation there.  

As you said, posted text without sources is unreliable.  Much of my wife's tree depends on FAG to establish relationships; fortunately these seem usually reliable enough (correlating surnames visible on markers).  I ran into a ggf of my stepdaughter whose grave marker shows 1852 (at least an entire generation off) where his death record is 1867.  

I like to see a reasonable amount of obit or bio.  In the case of my grandfather, whose memorial had been handed off to me, I spent some time gathering material to post, only to have it taken down 2 weeks later with no explanation, after it came up on google.  I referenced only openly available material, some of it copyrighted (but not the titles I posted).  They did adopt my edits showing relationships among burials and cenotaphs.  It helps to provide sources for requested edits, but no one ever corrected unsourced incorrect assertions.  People have asked me to send privately obits and wedding announcements on memorials I adopt; unfortunately, they are frequently copyrighted and/or difficult to access and so seem unsuited to post.

I will try applying the suggestion here, for which I'm grateful, of adding the sameas=no for the repeated complaints in my wikitree suggestions.

On presidential memorials, I think there's a reasonable expectation that people look elsewhere than FAG for most history and genealogy.
by Tim Prince G2G6 Mach 5 (54.3k points)
+15 votes
A few years back a certain person went through my ancestors and put her own spin on the family on findagrave and she also wrote a book and locked down the access to the family on the site.  I always check for outside sources before useing findagrave as a source.
by Anonymous Roach G2G6 Pilot (196k points)
+10 votes
I have a person in my area who feels like it is a contest to get all of the headstones in the cemetery on Find A Grave, but will not update any of the information. I have requested updates from her, but received no response.

I believe she wants the big number shown for how many graves she has created, rather than perfection. She even holds my own family captive. I can't even get their obituaries updated. It is like pulling teeth. I have reported her actions to Find A Grave, but don't get any response from them. If other cemeteries are handled the same way as the five in our area, I would have a hard time using them as a source.
by Cheryl Hess G2G Astronaut (1.8m points)
I'm a photo volunteer and I also see it as a personal challenge to get every stone photographed. That being said if anyone asked to take over a memorial I would hand it over in a heart beat and I always check and add the corrections or additions when they come in. That person sounds unnecessarily obsessive.

God bless you, Leilani for your work. I would really appreciate having you work in our area. I readily transfer FAG files to any family members as soon as they ask. It is funny that you brought this up. Just recently I asked her to transfer a recently deceased family member to me, which request was declined.

Like I said before, though I have requested FAG several times to take action against her, and I have recently found that another person is also having the same problem and have written to them, I am concerned about their future integrity.

If I have an original obituary from the 1800's and send it to her to update a FAG and she refuses, what will happen to the historical impact that FAG is losing out on.

Thank you, and God bless you again. heart

Find a grave is really slow when it comes to handling things on an administrative end. I'm sure they have your requests but just haven't gotten to them yet.

It's unfortunate that she is being both unresponsive and stubborn.
+10 votes
I have found my Warren line to be somewhat imaginative.  And other lines quite a fairytail.
by Anonymous Roach G2G6 Pilot (196k points)
+9 votes
For that matter, watch Familysearch.org (Mormon church genealogy website)--I have had much info added to my family tree that either doesn't add up (example: son born 100 years after father--even with multiple marriages on part of father--just isn't going to happen! :)   The son had the "correct" name and "correct father's name and so someone decided to add to my family tree info. So many times I have complained--just be careful if you are searching. Lois Kastner
by Lois Kastner G2G1 (1.2k points)
+6 votes
Thanks Robin.  When I first started on wikitree I made a merge based on info on find a grave.  I later found that that info was incorrect.  I didn't know at the time that findagrave can be very inaccurate.  I have since found that whole line was incorrect on that site. I am very careful to check anything I see there.
by Anonymous Roach G2G6 Pilot (196k points)
+3 votes
I change dates on Wikitree profiles to match FindAGrave dates if the FindAGrave memorial manager is non-responsive to changing the dates--just to avoid a data conflict, and I always put that information into a Research Notes section. Sometimes, the dates on the grave marker are inconsistent with viewable source documents--again, a good use of the Research Notes section. But yes, FindAGrave should have a disclaimer that the information is not vetted. That being said, I have had very good experiences with most memorial managers. And I like Steven's approach, too, marking the data conflict as a false error.
by Susan DeFoe G2G6 Mach 3 (34.5k points)
+3 votes
by Edward Hogan G2G6 Mach 2 (20.0k points)

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