I am working on eight G and G2 born in Norway

+5 votes
145 views
I am certain my contributions will benefit myself and others, for the getting to know of it.
WikiTree profile: Trogstad-3
asked in Requests for Project Volunteers by Anonymous Trogstad G2G6 Mach 1 (11.1k points)
retagged by Eva Ekeblad
Jodi, please forgive my ignorance - what do you mean by G and G2?  (Probably sounds like a dumb question to you, but they aren't something I recall seeing before.)
From Norway, 8 Great grandparents and 2 grandparents.

I think that you should take a look at the Norway Project FAQ and reconsider the naming scheme for your Norwegian ancestors. A name like "Johanna "Hannah" Mickelson formerly Kristoffersdatter of Sandsnes" picked at random from your family tree is wrong at several levels.

Women did never adopt their husbands' patronym as their married name. (If they married in America, it's probably okay.)

A Last Name At Birth (LNAB) like "Kristoffersdatter of Sandsnes" will probably never show up as a possible match for anybody, while a plain "Kristoffersdatter" might. We're here to collaborate, not to make up funny names that nobody can find. The farm name should be entered either as Current Last Name, or in the Other Names field. Personally I prefer the latter; people weren't married to their farms. Although the entire name handling in WikiTree is abysmal for Scandinavian names, we should try to make the best out of it.

Besides, always spell out the "-datter" part.

I'm sorry if I appear grumpy, I'm only trying to be helpful.

Thanks for the delivery of your observation. Johanna's father and husband are both Christopher or Kristopher, hence the LNAB. When initially given the information from Norway Heritage, I inquired about the farm names, not understanding how or why they applied to the patronymic writing or display and reference. I was told that the 'of' 'such and such' is expected for delineating the farm they lived on at birth and would go with that as a birth name. That it is in the bydeboke(?) and the digitalarkivet. Thanks for catching the datter part. I haven't gone back and touched up the profiles yet. I did read the Norway FAQ and saw that it said the farm names should be included in the Current Lastname and to the best of my ability as I've just begun working on these profiles again after taking some time off, I have presented names of add'l farms that a person has lived.

So, LNAB would and should include the farm name they lived on at birth, and then consecutive farms of residence should be listed in Current Lastname. Is how I interpreted the FAQ.  Where we are to become more familiar with 'how it actually was', and not modernize until as you've mentioned they are now in America and maybe taken on their spouses name, Which is the lastname of Johanna Mickelson. I'm working on her arriving in America and have dialogue going with NH forum, which I've not checked recently.

I agree with you on the form to enter names, it seems to me the webpage could be updated to incorporate a more accurate entry of Scandinavian names and others. It looks like more people are working on profiles with me and entering data. I have had a lot of emails and updates to profiles, so it must not be to difficult to locate with the farm in the LNAB field. In fact if you view it in the tree, it does make a lot of sense, and persons should get used to it. I just contacted the Norway project getting further along in my profiles on my father's side, and was going to discuss this 'of farm' issue. It looks good, reads well and represents the person properly.

The FAQ says simply: Use the patronymic as LNAB for most Norwegians born before the legal requirements for surnames."

About the Current/Married last name: "For most Norwegians before 1923 this would be the farm name where they spent the most time in their life or the last part of their life."

Never, ever put a farm name in the LNAB unless the patronym is unknown.

I just posted comments on the project page and am posting them here as requested...

And I just noticed Eric's 12:21 GMT message when typing the one below...when researching Larsen-4777, I was told he was 'of Putten' and that was how to identify him. Because there are so many similar names these farm names are important identifiers, for the person and time periods. It isn't a matter of the person being called out, 'Good Day! Larsen of Putten. It is for the recording of the place they are at a particular period. I also did put the 'of Putten' in the other field. Isn't that what we are supposed to do. I did not list it in LNAB, because I was given to believe from Norway Heritage that it was a farm he was at before coming to America. 

*********

I just exchanged a G2G feed regarding the LNAB with a 'of farm' associated with it in the Bydebok or Digitalarkivet. When exchanging communication with Norway Heritage, and just learning oh about a year ago, I was told the 'of farm' listed at birth is important to identify the persons location and as such should be included with the lastname at birth, but this actually will change if they move through change of farm or marriage, etc. Then they still are of the initial 'of farm', but incorporate the additional 'of farm' for reference, and the recorders have gone to great detail in acknowledging all of the farms. I do believe if the birth farm is known it should be a part of LNAB because it is the way it used to be, and not doing is modernization and corrupting the way it was done. 

**********

Before reading this, and just getting used to the patronymic, LNAB and farms and then any additional farms, I initially entered persons of my family tree when I knew it with the LNAB with 'of'. It reads well in the family tree. See Haagenson_of_Trogstad-1, or Larsen-4777, where I do not know if the farm, of Putten was at his birth. This latter does not show on the tree. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I would like to see the farm name for Larsen-4777 show on the tree, however, I do not think it should be in the LNAB field since this was where he lived before coming to America and I don't believe I had the one he was born at. I'll need to check on that. 

At least, you have the correct LNAB for your Larsen-4777, and that is what really counts. The rest is basically decoration. Although I would have entered his proper first name as Edvard Anton, if that is what is entered at his baptism in the parish register. Maybe he was called "Edwin" in America? Then that would be either his preferred name or other nicknames.

It's generally not a good idea to use the Middle name for anything for Scandinavians. My own middle name is Biberg, but if I enter that in the middle name field here, my name will mostly show up as Leif B. Kristensen. I prefer to have my full name shown, so I have entered my proper first name as Leif Biberg. This is obviously culture-specific, but the WikiTree name handling doesn't know about any other culture than the North American 20th century variety. And please ignore the software whining about multiple first names.
Here's his baptism, second row (no. 176):

SAH, Vestre Toten prestekontor, H/Ha/Haa/L0006: Parish register (official) no. 6, 1856-1861, p. 96
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070205610274

His full name is entered as "Anthon Larsen Putten", his parents are Lars Olsen and Marthe Christoffersdatter Putten Gaardf. ("Gaardfolk", ie. farmers). It's highly unusual that the farm name is listed with the child's full name, so this is an exception, and I would still enter his LNAB as Larsen.

He's not called Edward here; it's either an oversight from the pastor (which happened quite often) or maybe his family started to call him Edward later.

I was getting curious, and here's his confirmation, no. 42:

SAH, Vestre Toten prestekontor, H/Ha/Haa/L0008: Parish register (official) no. 8, 1870-1877, p. 165
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070205630337

No Edvard here, either. Where does that come from? Just guessing: Maybe he has been mixed up (conflated) with an Edward A. Larsen somewhere? I'd look again for an Anthon Larsen among the immigrants or settlers if I were you. Anthon is obviously his proper first name. as both the baptism and the confirmation show.

Or, alternately, you should look for an Edvard Larsen who may be a better fit for your data.
Then their lastname is Putten?

I am unsure where Larsen comes from. He is my dad's grandfather and I'd heard my father state, Edvard and then he is married as Larsen. For me, I was little when my dad spoke and he did so very little, but that is where Edvard comes from.

My dad's dad lived till 1997. Wish I would have talked with him when he was still here.
As he immigrated to America, Norwegian LNAB rules doesn't really apply.

I find it rather more disturbing that if his name in America is recorded as Edvard Larsen, it's highly implausible that he is the same person as the Anton Larsen Putten born 12 Jun 1860 in Vestre Toten. There seems to have been a serious mixup here. He may of course have felt that Anton was too outlandish, and changed it to the more Anglophonic Edward. But there ought to be some proof of it somewhere.
I have looked at this, too. In several census records  his wife is Alma A., with a middle initial, while I didn't find Edward with a middle initial in a single instance.

And, on the other hand there are several Edvard Larsen born in Norway in 1860-61 - just to say that Edvard wasn't an impossible name for a boy there and then. Of course most of them stayed in Norway.
This is how I've seen it written, since I was little, Edward A. Larsen, and then when I received information from Norway Heritage they represented him as Anton Larsen. Edvard was listed on the information I had on Norway Heritage forum, which just goes with how my dad said. I haven't located his FAG. I got off on other aspects of my tree after a while.

I have now read the entire thread at Norway Heritage Forum, and I would have been very worried if one of my great-grandparents' identity were built upon such shaky evidence.

Actually, for a few months at the beginning of my obsession, I had one of my great-grandmothers' identity wrong because of an incorrect birth year on a picture of her gravestone. Never trust anything at face value.

So I think we might be of assistance in trying to determine the true origin of Edward A Larson in Norway either proving or disproving the Anthon from Vestre Toten which does seem very suspicious.  Disproving Anthon hopefully involves finding the real Edward/Edvard. I did find Edwin A Larson in the 1880 Census at ED 103, Freeborn, Freeborn, MN.  He is working at the farm of John Ayars who has a daughter 11 yr old Alma so this is certainly "Jodi's" Edward.

19 farm laborer  Nor Nor Nor

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GYBF-3WN?i=1&cc=1417683
Sorry I missed something...

In 1880 his name is recorded Edwin A Larson not Edward.
Something extremely important in this quest is that exact birth date of 12 June 1860.  Jodi where did that date come from?  What is the source?
The date is this book,Andrews, Frank D. 1918. Robert Ayars and his descendents. Vineland, NJ: [s.n.]. . p38
https://archive.org/details/robertayarshisde00andr/page/38. Also, my parents did have the information. Finding the parents in Norway was the issue, and I do not want to speak disparagingly of Norway Heritage who did show me digitalarkivet and the actual books. I do appreciate your concern about having the right individuals, and did express that at some point to the NH forum. I haven't reviewed the dialogue in a while so off the top of my head at this writing. I don't mind reviewing and 'double-checking'. I did feel confident about putting the individuals I did, but if it turns out they are not correct, then of course it would need to be corrected. Thank you.
I believe the farm was in Norway, but Alma was not born in Norway. I found issue with that, but did not obese over it as it is not something I could change, and knew that based on another Wikitreer who had worked with many of the Ayars profiles from the beginning. She is listed on the profile of Edward Larsen. Jacobsen-1098
Hi!
Leif Biberg Kristensen is correct!
LNAB as a main rule - doesn't count for norwegian names before 1923; even if americans wan't them to. Patronyms count.
Thing is that before 1923 there was no written rules for naming standard in Norway. Sweden and denmark had some. We had naming traditions, similar to icelandic.

A female was given a first name, her given namei, then inherited her fathers first name, added "datter" or "dotter" - this combination was her name. When she married, she kept her own name. Did NOT "adopt" her husbands name as in LNAB naming system
When this is said; since this was traditions and priests very often was danes, germans or swedes, there is many varieties in church records.

A male got his given name, his last name was combined by his fathers first name plus "-søn" (oldest variety) "-sen"  (Norway and Denmark for the most). Oldest son also got the farm name in addition to fathers name. Patronym.
If he got or took name of city or place, it was because he moved - and last name could change if he moved again ...
If he moved to a city, he often brought with him the place he was born as last name - and kept it for life - beginning of LNAB system.

Kristoffer, Christoffer, Christopher is the same name with different spelling only. If you search the norwegian "Digitalarkivet" it doesn't matter how you spell them, the datamodel is familiar to the variaties. to 95%.
Hi!

LNAB as a main rule - doesn't count for norwegian names before 1923; even if americans wan't them to. Patronyms count.
Thing is that before 1923 there was no written rules for naming standard in Norway. Sweden and denmark had some. We had naming traditions, similar to icelandic.

A female was given a first name, her given namei, then inherited her fathers first name, added "datter" or "dotter" - this combination was her name. When she married, she kept her own name. Did NOT "adopt" her husbands name as in LNAB naming system
When this is said; since this was traditions and priests very often was danes, germans or swedes, there is many varieties in church records.

A male got his given name, his last name was combined by his fathers first name plus "-søn" (oldest variety) "-sen"  (Norway and Denmark for the most). Oldest son also got the farm name in addition to fathers name. Patronym.
If he got or took name of city or place, it was because he moved - and last name could change if he moved again ...
If he moved to a city, he often brought with him the place he was born as last name - and kept it for life - beginning of LNAB system.

Kristoffer, Christoffer, Christopher is the same name with different spelling only. If you search the norwegian "Digitalarkivet" it doesn't matter how you spell them, the datamodel is familiar to the variaties. to 95%.
His last name is Larsen, first name Anton
Place of birth Fjeldsmarke, Putten, 1860

Ås sokn, Kolbu Sokn, Vestre Toten prestegjeld
Ås church Kolbu
https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85s_kirke_(Vestre_Toten)
and in this parish borders
https://kart.1881.no/?query=Vestre%20toten,%20putten

Census 1865, whole family listed
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01038069000695

Btw :)
It seems we are distant family, Jodi. My mothers family is also from the Kolbo, Vestre Toten area. I have not found any direct links in that area, yet - but it seems we are linked back in year 1177 ... funny
AS you and others have requested changes, I am applying them. I do not think there was this many persons listed on Digitalarkivet when I first entered data on this profile. Jennie Jacobsen had created the profile. I added to it and modified it with my family info and what 'was' available. Thanks for the additional information. I have many more connections to locate and enter. I will like to have the help, as I'm sure many of will like to see this increase and be completed.
Jodi,
I really think that there has been a great job done. It's difficult to find the way through alle the "americanizing" of names that happened when norwegians arrived in US, and when settling.
And it get's worse when ancestors try to follow further back on names that does not exist or constructing names in good meanings but wrong traditions.
Let me ask: Did any of the links I sent you yesterday, give any meaning? Maybe the map showing Putten was useful? I believe this was the farm that Lars Olsen and wife Marthe Christoffersdatter lived, gave birth to their children included Anton/Anthon and where (at least) Marthe died June 23rd 1865. She was buried a month later, July 23rd 1865 but unshure where, in Vestre Toten parish. maybe from Kolbo/Kolbu church even if Ås is closer to the farm Putten.
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/267/pg00000001018473
I found that wiidower Lars Olsen later re-married in Ås church Sept 12th 1873, to Ingeborg Pedersdatter (widow)  from a place called Nordberg in Søndre Land-
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/327/pv00000000277501

But, who are you searching for, where do we start? Some hnts would be nice :)
Would you like to look at Larsdatter-1275? I will soon be into quite a few Norwegian profiles, and I believe some will turn into Sweden and maybe Denmark.
Started looking into ms. Larsdatter, something mysterious ab her. Information doesn't "fit"
Also found someth interesting ab our friend Marte/Marthe, Lars Olsen's first wife- when their son OLAUS b. 1853 was baptised, her name was MARTHE HENDRIKSDATTER, not Christoffersdatter
Names was not THAT important those days
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/255/pd00000002950801
I notice, Oddvar, that in the Klokkerbok Marthe is clearly Christophersdtr so I think there was just a "typo"transferring the christening to the ministerialbok :-)

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070603780300
Backing up again to the question of whether Anthon Larsen Putten from Vestre Toten is Edward/Edwin A Larson in Freeborn, Freeborn, Minnesota.

Exact shared birthdate is great, Anton Larsen emigrates April/May 1879 going to Grembota? MN.  Picture a poorly handwritten Freeborn Co and you might get Grembota?  This is compelling but Anton/Anthon becoming Edwin/Edward in America is awful.

I noticed that all 6 children of Lars Olsen and Marthe Chritophersdatter left Vestre Toten between 1878 and 1882 - perhaps the new stepmother didn't fit in really well? :-)

Locating some of the family in America to see if we could put Anthon Larsen somewhere else would help prove/disprove the Anton becomes Edward theory?

I'm going to try and paste the Gjovik and Toten spreadsheet info in another comment.  Not sure how it will work
300 1878* 14.03.1878 MARTIN LAURITS HANSEN PUTTEN 01.06.1838           AMERIKA

(EI HER BUNDET VED NOGET OFFENTLIGT ÆGTESKABSLØFTE. PAA HANS VANDEL HAR JEG INTET AT UDSÆTTE. E: HET EGENTLIG MARTIN LAURITS LARSEN) (01.06.1838 should be 01.06.1858 I looked at the book)

490 1878* 14.06.1878 KRISTIAN LARSEN PUTTEN 28.12.1846           AMERIKA

(INTET SÆRLIGT AT BEMÆRKE)

660 24.04.1879 09.05.1879 ANTON LARSEN PUTTEN 1860           AMERIKA    

1160 08.05.1880 1880 INGE MARIE LARSDATTER PUTTEN 1851           AMERIKA    

1240 13.05.1880 1879 OLAUS LARSEN PUTTEN 1853           AMERIKA    

2320 30.05.1882 1882 OTTO LARSEN PUTTEN 1863           AMERIKA

1 Answer

+3 votes
The Norway Project is here:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:Norway

The thread for joining is still here:
https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/375444/interested-norway-have-norwegian-ancestry-norway-project

- athough you could also respond to this answer.
answered by Eva Ekeblad G2G6 Pilot (271k points)

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