Confusion among the immigrant Bachiler, Sanborn and Tuck families

+4 votes
1.4k views

It would seem that John Sanborn's mother has become confused with his mother-in-law, thus  Robert Tuck's wife has become a Bachiler and an unwanted daughter, Joanna, has become associated with the Rev. Bachiler.  

  • Robert Tuck/Tuck-29 has his wife as Joanna Bachiler/Bachiler-61, dau. of Rev. Stephen.
  • Robert Tuck/Tuck-224 also reports wife Joanna Bachiler/Bachiler-61. (Also reports problematic parents, "Robert Tucker" and "Johannah Tuck Mn.")
  • Robert Tucke/Tucke-9 reports wife Johanna Bachilar/Bachilar-2.

This morning I adopted a yet another Robert profile, to which I added a few comments and a preliminary group of references. See Tucke-7. 

That the two personalities, Ann Bachiler and Joanna ___, have somehow become confused might be even more apparent on the WikiTree profile of John Sanborn's mother, Ann Bachiler/Bachiler-17. 
  1. Profile reports death "February 14, 1673 at Hampton, New Hampshire ..." for Ann Bachiler, John Sanborn's mother, when historical records support this date/location as death of John's mother in law (See Unknown-233273)
  2. Ann Bachiler's profile contains one note saying, "Conflicting death dates for her from 1632 to 1649 to 1673. Most say Rockingham, NH. Need cited info for her death." (These G2G comments hopefully explain dates as 1673/1674 [see item 1]. The 1632 date is no doubt explained as partial or erroneous entry, as that is when Ann m2 at England to Henry Atkinson [20 Jan. 1631/2; Great Migration]. It is likely "after 1632" had been intended at one time, many "shares" ago.) 
  3. I presume because of the confused death information, Ann Bachiler's profile has been protected as "Puritan Great Migration," when it was John Sanborn's mother-in-law who immigrated, not his mother. Ann Bachiler/Bachiler-17 profile contains note, "Early reports were uncertain whether Ann came to New England with her sons, but according to the latest by Robert Charles Anderson in "The Great Migration Begins," she did not (pg. 68)." Separately, hope someone will share details of any "early reports" claiming she had migrated.  

As this crosses a number of early family lines, it seemed a good idea to post the information to G2G. References, thoughts and challenges of others welcome. --GeneJ

See: 

Ann Bachiler http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bachiler-17

Rev. Stephen Bachiler http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bachiler-22

Joanna Bachiler http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bachiler-61

Johanna Bachilar http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bachilar-2

Robert Tucke http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Tucke-9

Robert Tuck http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Tuck-29

Robert Tuck http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Tuck-224

Robert Tucke http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Tucke-7

Joanna ____ http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Unknown-233273

John Sanborne http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Sanborne-2

P.S. Wouldn't it be great if we could link a discussion like this to multple WikiTree IDs. 

 

WikiTree profile: Robert Tuck
asked in Policy and Style by GeneJ X G2G6 Mach 4 (49.5k points)
edited by GeneJ X
Gene, could you please map out what the appropriate pedigree *should* be (preferably citing the right sources)? That way we can help you put humpty dumpty back together again.

(I searched for Robert Tuck on Americanancestors.org without finding much in the way of his wife.)

Thanks!

Hi Jillaine Smith:

:-) in two parts.

You wrote, "please map out what the appropriate pedigree *should* be (preferably citing the right sources)?"

Perhaps I didn't quite follow, and if so, I apologize. The records about two women are confused, and this confusion seems to have found its way to WikiTree so that it impacts on any number of profiles. I'm hoping the records about the two women can be untangled. As it pertains to Robert Tuck/e and his wife/widow, sources on this topic have been posted to Tucke-7 and Unknown-233273.

Robert Tuck's widow died 14 February 1673/4. Joanna (____) Tuck, the wife/widow of Robert Tuck died Hampton, New Hampshire, United States, 14 February 1673/4. The date and location of her death are found at the top of her inventory (Essex County probate files, case 28217; sources and links posted to Unknown-233273. See also no. 3 in separate response.

Ann (Bachiler) Sanborn married Henry Atkinson at Strood, Kent, 20 January 1631/32. (a) Without further reference, this was reported by Robert Charles Anderson in his report on Stephen Bachiler, _Great Migration Begins…_ p.62. (b) Citing "Strood, Kent, parish register, Kent Record Office, Maidstone, Kent," see George F. Sanborn, "Rev. Stephen Bachiller of Hampton: Some Additional Information," _The New Hampshire Genealogical Record_, volume 8 (1991); Sanborn reports the license for the marriage was issued Rochester. Sanborn's article has been reproduced, with permission, by Lane Memorial Library, see http://www.hampton.lib.nh.us/hampton/biog/bachilerdeath.htm

 

Ann (Bachiler) (Sanborn) Atkinson's death date and location are unknown; seems sometime after 1639.

  • The Bachiler articles by Anderson and Sanborn, above, refer to 1639 suit filed over a debt due from John Bate. From both accounts, it appears Ann (Bachiler) (Sanborn) Atkinson survived at the time the action/actions were being pursued.  (a) As to his remarks, Anderson cites "PRO REQ2/278/64." (b) Sanborn references the work by "Charles Edward Banks in an English court record (Court of Requests, Public Record Office, London. REQ2/678/64, dated 2 November 15 Charles I [1639]), and preserved by Charles Hull Batchelder in his extensive manuscript collection on the family at the New Hampshire Historical Society in Concord."

  • In his article, Sanborn further writes, "What became of the Atkinsons is still not known."

 

Rev. Stephen Bachiler/Bachiler-22 is not known to have had a daughter Joanna.* See Robert Charles Anderson, _The Great Migration Begins : Immigrants to New England 1620-1633_, 3 vols. (1995), 1/A-F:62-63; digital images, _AmericanAncestors.org_ (accessed 2013) for children as, (i) Nathaniel, (ii) Deborah, (iii) Stephen (iv) Samuel, (v) Ann and (vi) Theodate.

 

*He is also not known to have had children (a) Unknown (Bachiler) Batchelder, (b) Frances Bachiler, (b) John Bachiler, (d) Henry Bachiler and (e) Sarah Batchelder, all of whom are associated as such on WikiTree.

 

Part 2. :-)

You wrote, "please map out what the appropriate pedigree..." As Joanna's maiden name is not known, I assume your question of pedigree pertains to Robert Tuck/e. Comments follow; see also Tucke-7.  Hopefully the comments below address your question. If not, please advise. Likewise as to any sources that are not the right sources. Pardon typos.--GeneJ

If there were birth records and/or parentage to be reported and cited about Robert Tuck, would like to think I'd have done so. Robert Tuck's marriage took place at England, where all of his children are said to have been born--but no record of the marriage and/or children's births was known when the various cited references were published. 

  • From V C. Sanborn's 1917 article about the Hampton grantees, "The English ancestry of Tuck should be traced," to which he further notes, "Norwich wills have not as yet been calendared. They would undoubtedly furnish the English ancestry of many an early settler." Sanborn also wrote, "[Robert Tuck] left one son, Robert, in England, who appears on the Suffolk Hearth Tax in 1674 at Bungy Boyscott." https://archive.org/stream/essexinstitutehi53esseuoft#page/246/mode/2up
  • In Dow's much earlier _Tuck Genealogy …_ (1877), p. 5 there is a lengthy passage from 1872 correspondence with Amos Tuck who had investigated church records at Gorlston. He recounts being told that Cromwell had ordered many records destroyed. Tuck wrote that he "found nothing earlier than 1683." The records that were extant, however, did report about persons of the surname Tuck. https://archive.org/stream/tuckgenealogyrob00dowj#page/2/mode/2up  
  • Same work, p. 10, "Robert Tuck was married and had children before his emigration. The time of his marriage and maiden name of his wife are both unknown to the writer. Her baptismal name was Joanna (also variously written Joanah, Johana, Johannah). The had four children that lived to mature age, all born in England; but as nothing has been learned of the time of birth of either parent or any of the children, the the order in which the children are here arranged may not be the order of their births." https://archive.org/stream/tuckgenealogyrob00dowj#page/10/mode/2up 

In History of Hampton (1893), Dow introduced the surname with this passage, "The name, Tuck, was in early manuscripts written variously, Tuck, Tucke, Tewk, Took, indicating that the modern names Tuck, Tooke, and Tewk had a common origin." http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uva.x000402899?urlappend=%3Bseq=454   

Most seem to defer to the works by Dow, 1877 (above) and 1893 (_History of Hampton, N.H…._) for details about the wife and children. As to the latter, http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uva.x000402899?urlappend=%3Bseq=455 

Miscellaneous

1. Martin E. Hollick has updated this, but in his _New Englanders in the 1600s_ (2006) there is no entry for Robert Tuck. The 2006 work is subtitled "A guide to genealogical research published between 1980 and 2005." 

2. The Torrey entry on _AmericanAncestors.org_ is under surname Tucke ("Robert Tucke" and "[Joanna] ____"); refers to about a dozen works consulted. The Torrey abbreviated references are including with that source on both Tucke-7 and Unknown-233273. (Separately, except for Genealogical Dictionary of Maine and New Hampshire_ and _The Ancestry of Frederick Rockwell Gladstone Sanborn_, his works consulted are accessible via open links online.)

3. Any number of details about the probate records of both Robert Tuck and his wife/widow Joanna (______) Tuck are provided on the Lane Memorial Library web site. This is also cited on Tucke-7 and Unknown-233273 as ""Probate records of Robert Tuck of Hampton, 1664"; http://www.hampton.lib.nh.us/hampton/history/probate/roberttuck1664.htm In particular (emphasis added):

  • "Administration on the estate [of Robert Tuck] was granted to 'Johannah Tucke widow & John Samborn her son in law,' Oct. 11, 1664." Also, 
  • "Inventory of the estate of widdow Joanna Tuck of Hampton 'deceased upon the 14 day of februrary 1673' ; presented by John Sanborn, administrator to the estate of Robert Tuck; amount, £33.10.0; attested by John Sanborn April 14, 1674." 

4. Robert Tuck's name appears frequently in the first few volumes of _Records and Files of the Quarterly Courts of Essex County, Massachusetts_. Before developing the initial sketch, I scanned those few quickly in search of a deposition that might include his age. Though quick work often misses something, I did not find an age in that first pass; seemed he was more frequently jurist or clerk rather than plaintiff, defendant or deponent. (Note: Torrey refers only to death dates in his entries for Robert and Joanna.)

5. Robert Tuck's name is associated with some 35 entries in _Essex Antiquarian_; I only attempted to overview three of those before developing the initial sketch. (Note: As I recall, there were no _Essex Antiquarian_ articles referred to by Torrey.)

4 Answers

+3 votes
 
Best answer

So am I understanding correctly that the wife of Robert Tuck-224, who is currently identified as Joanna Bachiler-61 should:

a) be detached as a daughter of Stephen Bachiler because he never had such a daughter, and

b) have her last name at birth be changed to Unknown?

And that Ann Bachiler-17 -- well, I must be tired; I can't tell what you'd like us to do to fix her.

 

 

answered by Jillaine Smith G2G6 Pilot (655k points)
selected by GeneJ X

Joanna Bachiler/Bachiler-61 

Should be severed from Rev. Stephen Bachiler and merged into Joanna (___) Tuck/Unknown-233273, which already exists.

Ann Bachiler/Bachiler-17

  1. Her date of death should be removed (she is not the one who died at Hampton in 1673)
  2. Since she is not known or thought to have migrated, her classification as "Puritan Great Migration"/PPP should be re-evaluated.

Updated: I am not the one who created confused death/migtration data about Ann Bachiler/Bachiler-17--that probably happened a long time ago so as to become shared and shared again before finding its way to WikiTree. I'm also not the one posed related questions about this confusion to the biography of Ann Bachiler/Bachiler-17.  

Would have thought it was a good thing that someone made an effort to get to the bottom of those problems, but maybe that is not the case. 

Okay, I think I've got it cleaned up. Please check; Gene, when you're satisfied, please remove the bulletin board posts. 

1. I merged I think all Joannas into Unknown-233273 (there might be more out there) and cleaned up the narrative.

2. I merged dupes of Robert Tuck(e) into Tuck-224 and cleaned up the narrative; there might be more out there

3. I changed the death date and location of Ann (Bachiler-17) (Sanborn) Atkinson, and cleaned up her narrative. I also de-PPP'ed her.

4. I merged the Sanborn husbands of Ann and changed his first name to Unknown, and cleaned up his narrative.

Let me know what, if anything, still needs to be done. If it's profile cleanup, I encourage others to jump in, following the model I used which follows the current Style Guidelines.

Thanks.

+2 votes

Per "Rev. Stephen Bachiler of Hampton: Some Additional Information"  by George Freeman Sanborn, Jr., publ. in The New Hampshire Genealogical Record January 1991 - Vol. 8, No. 1:

Bachiler's daughter, Ann, widowed by the time she was 30, married secondly (by a license issued at Rochester) in Strood, Kent, on 20 January 1631/2 (Strood, Kent, parish register, Kent Record Office, Maidstone, Kent), as "Mrs Anne Sanborne," to "Mr Henry Atkinson," and they brought the suit mentioned earlier against John Bate, son of Rev. John Bate, thus establishing the basis of these family connections between Bate, Bachiler, and Mrs. Atkinson, among others. What became of the Atkinsons is still not known. They do not appear to have come to New England. The Rochester marriage licenses do not survive for the period in question, from which further information might have been found. However, it has been established that this Henry Atkinson was not the girdler of that name in London who Charles Hull Batchelder thought must be the second husband of Ann (Bachiler) Samborne (supra).

Have you looked at the Lane Memorial Library online website?  A search for 'Bachiler' here:  http://www.hampton.lib.nh.us/search/node/bachiler turns up several dozen articles.

answered by Darlene Athey-Hill G2G6 Pilot (263k points)

Hi Darlene Athey Hill,

Thank you. I am indeed familiar with the Lane Memorial Library site. They've done such a nice job. Their article on Robert Tuck's probate is cited on Tucke-7. Quoting from their presentation of the Robert Tuck's probate, (emphsis added "Administration on the estate was granted to "Johannah Tucke widow & John Samborn her son in law," Oct. 11, 1664."

Same article reports from Tuck's widow's 1674 inventory for the record of her death, "Inventory of the estate of widdow Joanna Tuck of Hampton "deceased upon the 14 day of februrary 1673" ; presented by John Sanborn, administrator to the estate of Robert Tuck; amount, £33.10.0; attested by John Sanborn April 14, 1674." http://www.hampton.lib.nh.us/hampton/history/probate/roberttuck1664.htm

Digital images of that Joanna (____) Tuck's inventory are readily accessible vita the Essex County probate files collection at _AmericanAncestors.org_. See case 28217 http://www.americanancestors.org/PageDetail.aspx?recordId=248692554

Darlene,

i encourage you to add that excerpt to ann bachilor's profile. Thanks.
+2 votes
I'm in the process of completing the outstanding merges. Do we have confirmation of Robert Tuck's origins/parents?
answered by Jillaine Smith G2G6 Pilot (655k points)

Hi Jillaine Smith,

The problematic parents are associated with Tuck-224, for which an unmerged match to Tuck-29 has been outstanding since Feburary 2013.

(Merge of Tucke-15 into Tuck-29 is only a recent request;  

I am updating the bio for Tuck-29 right now. Hope to integrate a statement as to why no obvious basis exists to assume his name was changed upon migration. (Ala, research shows that Tuck is a historical name in old England; that the name is known to appear about the location from which Robert migrated.)  

Hi Jillaine,

Robert Tuck's parents names are not known. I can't be sure, but the "Tucker" parents associated with Tuck-224 may be explain why that merge has been "unmatched" for over a year.

I added the following language to the bio for Robert Tuck/Tuck-29:

There is no apparent justification for the notion that Robert Tuck was born to a Tucker father, despite that some Internet family files so speculate. Joseph Dow (1893) described variants of the surname as "Tuck, Tucke, Tewk, Took," suggesting modern names "Tuck, Tooke, and Tewk, had a common origin."[4] In 1872, descendant Amos Tuck wrote of his recent experience with Gorlston materials saying, "I found in several places on the records, persons of the name of Tuck, and was agreeably surprised to see the oldest spelling in fact the only spelling of our name was without a final e." Amos Tuck's remarks were published in the earlier work on the immigrant and family by Joseph Dow. Dow added the benefit of his personal experience about the New England records, "Robert Tuck's name, wherever I have found it written by himself or by his contemporaries, is generally without a final e."[5]

 

Completed the merge of Tuck-224 and (e)-15 into 29, cleaned up results and protected 29 from being merged away. Detached parents.

If anyone feels that they contributed substantially to this great cleanup process and wants to be acknowledged for it, please add your name/profile to the Acknowledgments section. Thanks Gene for leading the way.
+2 votes
I am not sure if this helps, but Google Books has a FREE ebook - Batchelder, Batcheller Genealogy. It covers the descendants of Stephen Bachiler of Hampton, NH, as well as Bacheller families in Essex, MA. It might supply answers to some of the questions.
answered by Bob Keniston G2G6 Pilot (166k points)
Hi Robert Keniston,

Thank you! I'll make sure that one is added to the listing of sources.

Keep 'em coming. This is wonderful. --GeneJ

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