Do you have a well sourced ancestral trail to a Magna Carta surety baron?

+15 votes
1.1k views
Can you identify a living person in WikiTree who has an ancestral line back to a Magna Carta surety baron where each parent/child relationship in that line / trail is sufficiently* sourced (in WikiTree)?

*Sufficiently: to the degree that those sources would be acceptable by most reasonable genealogists
in WikiTree Tech by Peter Roberts G2G6 Pilot (688k points)
retagged by Liz Shifflett
Honestly, Peter, where to begin? There are multiple descents from each of the MC barons with living descendants. And I have done trees for several people (up to 8th cousins) with the same. For one, for example, we share the same 6x great grandparents.

Why the interest? If you want to see a good example of such a line, look at the royal family or anyone in the current peerage.
Hello Monica,

To begin, please provide one of your lines back to a surety baron where each parent child relationship is sufficiently sourced in WikiTree.

Thanks and sincerely, Peter
I keep my own tree open to help researchers, so you are welcome to roam it, like anyone else. If you want to discuss anything on it, contact me privately. I can also direct you to some of my profiles (cousins) with more rewarding lines. I keep their profiles private, but can link you in to their immediate ancestors if you are curious.

It occurs to me that if you want to really see what I mean, the best thing would be to go to the peerage pages, and check the various people out on Wikitree. You'll likely find most of them well documented for the full 20+ generations.

Thomas, WOW, Your answer is so true, and goes to show that some reliable sources can be wrong sometimes. 

The corrections which Thomas points out can be explained on the relivant WikiTree profiles.
I am amazed and shocked to find that I am related to every one of the people on the list of Magna Carta Barons through my grandfather who I assumed was mostly Spanish and Indian.  A Stewart is the link, and its interesting to see how confident for the most part the connections are. Looks like a lot of work ahead for me figuring out how to link these people to those I have already, really exciting to have a clear direction and for once some connections! Also interesting that that same Stewart line links up to Queen Victoria and Burl Ives!

Ok to answer your question:

Robert de Vere is my 25th great grand father

Saier (Quincy) de Quincy is my 26th great grandfather

John (Lacy) de Lacy Knt is my 26th great grand Uncle

His Father Roger de Lacy is my 27th great Grandfather

Gilbert (Clare) de Clare is my 25th great grandfather

John (Clavering) Fitz Robert is my 24th great Grandfather

It will take me as a novice a long time to link and find sources, but its pretty amazing that information is documented to give me those results!
Monica I too have a fair number of Gateway Ancestors but that's because I'm 85% English by DNA and genealogical results. The research shows that during the mid 1500's about 3% of all English (population about 3.5m at that time) descended from the Plantagenets alone.
I have done that, personally, however I would not dare carry my trail to any organization to join them

  According to WikiTree I am descended from a number of the Shurety Barons have played with those lines back to Vharlemain and to William the Conquerer but just for a lark.
John (Clavering) Fitzrobert is a confident 23 GGF of mine. I read that after 20 generations we have over a million ancesters at that spot. I have 42 connections to the above person.  Also connections to 5 of the Barons. My email is  marymc70gmail.com. I am just starting to connect to these people Greetings from a 23 or 24th cousin
This is more a question about documentation than ancestry. It's likely that for most people with European ancestry, they do have such an ancestor. But the scarcity of old documents prevents a large percentage of them from knowing exactly how they are descended from those long ago people.

13 Answers

+14 votes
 
Best answer
Peter, I believe I know where you are coming from on this, I have wondered basically the same thing myself at times.  I tend to think of it as whether or not there is a verifiable paper trail from the present back to those historic personages.  And by verifiable I mean that the documents actually exist, transcriptions have been checked to verify that they are accurate copies, the orginals are in a records facility of some type (archives, libraries, etc) that can be checked, and hopefully all the records are usually supportable by other records.  Particularly that last aspect, generally something more than casual comments by an obscure cleark that Mr. Smith was married to Miss so and so, dau of Sir such and such.  I suspect tht all too often, particularly the further back in time we go,  we are forced into having the obscure comment type of source as the only evidence of a relationship, resulting in a link of uncertain or low confidence level.  So I believe your question concerns any whose paper trail only contains links that are verifiably certain or high confidence. And not those of modern royal descent, but rather those of us who are of ordinary descent, citizens of former British colonies.

As for my interest, many months ago I came across the relationship finder page for the MG Barons.  Thought it might be interesting, I checked my relationships and found that, to my amusement, all of them were ancestors according the info returned.  I checked the connections on a couple and found several uncertains in the lists, which for me means speculative.  I'm sure this happens to many of us, my DNA "ethnicity" values are heavily weighted toward England and the surrounding lands so I suppose it is "possible".

Over the last five or six decades, my interest in genealogy as become more oriented toward genetic descent, particularly the last decade.  And do they really expect me to believe that somewhere in those twentyfive or so generations of descent from those Barons that there wasn't a single case of someone not really being the child of their recorded father, for whatever reason?
by Art Black G2G6 Mach 5 (55.1k points)
selected by Doug McAdams
What about our Gateway Ancestors? Aren't they well documented by most standards?
+6 votes
I may. I am a descendant of William Skepper (1597-1646). His daughter was Sarah (1639-1710) married to Walter Fairfield (1631-1723).

I will have to see if everyone on the line is well sourced though. Why?
by Lucy Selvaggio-Diaz G2G6 Pilot (816k points)
Because the longest sufficiently sourced ancestral line of a living person in WikiTree which has been identified is only ten generations:

https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:Relationship&action=calculate&person1_name=Lo_Cascio-93&person2_name=Cascio-10

But that person's father is now private as a result of GDPR.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:WikiTree_Tops#Ancestry

Surely there is a more extensive one which can be found?
I'm sure many people on Wikitree have sourced lines from living persons much longer than 10 generations. Where did that 10 figure come from?
I added my daughter whose 11th GGF was Mayflower passenger James Chilton. That's 13 generations, and she has an infant daughter.

John Kingman
Maybe I'm confused as to what you mean. If you looked at Prince Charles, for example, I'm sure you could find a reasonably well-sourced ancestry for him on wikitree of at least 30 generations. And he is a living person.
But Prince Charles no longer has a public profile on WikiTree because of the recent EU privacy law (the GDPR Peter mentioned). If the person is living, their profile is unlisted unless they are a member of WikiTree.

see https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/616172/why-was-the-windsor-royal-family-tree-removed-from-wikitree

Hi Lucy! [William Skepper] is one of the Gateway Ancestors documented by Douglas Richardson. A trail for him was reviewed/approved by the Magna Carta Project in 2016. I'd want to re-review the trail in WikiTree before saying it's still good here, but it was in 2016!

Then maybe (for the purposes of the original question) we should not be looking at trails from a living ancestor, but from people a generation or two back, who are deceased, but who have living descendants. For example, Charles' grandparents. It works out to the same thing.

I don't even understand the point of the question, unless it's to ascertain how possible it is to have such a trail. And, for people such as the royal family, especially, it's very possible.
I think you misinterpreted that list. That is 10 generations along the strictly maternal branch. The longest along the strictly paternal branch (also in that list) is longer. And the deepest ancestry along any mixed line is surely much longer still.
I to am a descendant of William Skepper through his daughter Sarah Skepper Fairfield
+7 votes
My husband probably and thus our descendants.  But I haven't written them all up fully. Falls down for me when he was joined to the early profiles whose sources and reasoning sometimes leave me baffled. Perhaps this is a good day to do some more work on this!
by C. Mackinnon G2G6 Pilot (329k points)
+8 votes
Not sure if you are only meaning American wikitreers as you mention gateway ancestors, but Queen Victoria seems to have a pretty solid descent from Bohun-7 and various living Windsors like Windsor-1 descend from Victoria. But they are living people in WikiTree but not active users.

Tim
by Tim Partridge G2G6 Mach 4 (40.5k points)
+7 votes

Hi, Peter --

I am allegedly the direct descendant of five of the surety barons. The line that I connect through involves my Stanborough ancestors, and I am not the one who has done the research on these lines. So, I can't speak to the accuracy of the connections -- I have to say that my confidence isn't high because there doesn't appear to be good documentation to back up the connections.

If anyone has an interest in filling in some of the blanks, I could use some help. The pre-1700 connections are not in my comfort zone.

Here are my alleged grandfathers:

by Julie Ricketts G2G6 Pilot (479k points)

Julie - I looked at a few of your trails & found one that looks promising. RF says you're a descendant of [Olive (Ingoldsby) James], who is one of the Gateway Ancestors documented by Douglas Richardson. A trail for her was reviewed/approved by the Magna Carta Project in 2015. I'd want to re-review the trail in WikiTree before saying it's still good here, but it was in 2015!

Thank you, Liz!

I have struggled with that line that goes back to Olive Ingoldsby. I get hung up in the Stanberry/Stanborough families and all of the Ezekiels and Solomons. There are several who sometimes went by one name and sometimes went by the other, and their fathers are named the same, and they lived in the same area.

I'll keep working on it as time permits.
oh dang. Can't help you with Olive's descendants. Good luck!

I didn't mean to imply you should work on those descendants. laugh

I really should probably write a post asking for some help, though. I'm just not ready to focus on it at the moment. lol

+6 votes
Yes, I have well-sourced ancestors on several sides that lead back to the Surety Barons. From myself to Benjamin Cave, born 1703 and his wife, Hannah Bledsoe, and it is through Hannah's line that I go back. Every person from myself back to several surety barons is well-documented.
by Lori Smith G2G6 (7.7k points)

found the WikiTree profile for Benjamin - https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Cave-238

He's outside the timeframe of Gateway Ancestors that Douglas Richardson documents in his Magna Carta Ancestry (immigrated by 1700 & Benjamin's profile has him born 1703).

I can go through both my dad's and my mom's sides to show relationship with 19 Surety Barons. Most of the time the Relationship Finder takes me through my dad's side, even though most of the Barons are related to me the same on both sides. (like 29th grandfather).

Grace Chetwood and Peter Bulkeley are both Gateway Ancestors on my mom's side of the family. Every person from my mom to the Barons through these lines are well-documented. My mom is Freeborn 108 (she is deceased). If you do the relationship finder with Freeborn-108 and Albini-39 you will find a direct relationship and all documented.

I tried to post the results from the relationship finder and it would not paste.
I went through all the Surety Barons for my mom and I am related to many through Grace Chetwood and Peter Bulkeley, both well-documented Gateway Ancestors. Again, I have to go through my mom or it takes me through my dad's line.

Here are the ones I am directly related to- though 2 are uncertain (one person each time) and one is a cousin.

Robert deVere, Geoffrey de Say, William d' Aubigney, Henry de Bohun, Gilbert de Clare, John FitzRobert, Robert Fitzwalter (uncertain), William de Lanvallei (1st cousins, 24 times removed), William Malet, William Mowbray (uncertain), Saher de Quincy, and Robert de Ros.
+6 votes

yes, I have Ros-162, it is marked confident when I search Robert (Ros) de Roos. He is 24th great grandfather. I am positive of research efforts through gen 11 and the rest back seem to be well researched. I also have others but not fully marked confident. 


Sherrie Mitchell-17863

by Sherrie Mitchell G2G6 Mach 5 (51.2k points)
edited by Sherrie Mitchell

Sherrie - RF shows Generation 12 is [Lawrence Towneley], who is one of the Gateway Ancestors documented by Douglas Richardson, although a trail for him in WikiTree has not yet been reviewed/approved by the Magna Carta Project. However, the trail for his aunt, [Mary Towneley], was marked Ready for Review by Jayme Arrington in 2015 (which is probably why his trail looks so good!).

Thanks Liz! I think this one is going to be solid! Sherrie
+6 votes

Just a note about where to find the info about Richardson-documented Gateway Ancestors that the Magna Carta Project might have developed or approved a trail for:

  • See Category:Gateway Ancestors for the Gateways included in the Magna Carta Project's scope - primarily just those listed in the front matter of Richardson's Magna Carta Ancestry.
  • See the first table at the project's Base Camp for completed trails (both reviewed and ready for review).
by Liz Shifflett G2G6 Pilot (622k points)
+6 votes
If I use the relationship calculator to the list of Magna Carta Sureties it is showing I have 3 great grandfathers with confidence and 1 uncertain due to one person. It is showing others as cousins and cousins removed. Does this mean the 3 that show confidence have been sourced reliably or do I need to check each line myself? I was thinking confidence was used to indicate reliable sources. If that isn't the case please let me know.

Thanks,

Sharon
by Sharon Glover G2G6 Mach 1 (13.1k points)

If the Magna Carta Project reviewed the trail from the Gateway to the Surety Baron, it should be listed at Base Camp - see https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Magna_Carta_Team_Base_Camp

From looking at your trail to Albini-39, it does not appear that the trail is one that the Magna Carta Project reviewed/approved.

Regarding "Confident"... Magna Carta Project policy previously had been to set the parent/child relationship as confident when the connection was listed in Douglas Richardson's works (Magna Carta Ancestry and Royal Ancestry). Earlier this year, we changed that policy & only set the relationship status as Confident if there is primary proof. However, once a setting is selected, you can't go back to "unknown", so all of the trails developed by the project prior to the policy change will be marked as confident whether or not there is primary proof of the relationship. ([Click here] for details of the Magna Carta Project's current policy.)

I looked around your tree a bit, but didn't see that your immigrant ancestors were ones covered by the Magna Carta Project (see the table on [this page]).

+5 votes

Last week I found that I have at least one confirmed, legit, 100% accurate, Gateway ancestor. Her name is Anne Derehaugh. She connects to:

Robert De Roos

William d'Aubingy (Why is the link name Albini?)

Gilbert de Clare

Richard de Clare (Did not know a father and son signed the document. Huh.)

John de Lacy

Saher de Quincy

I found only one gateway ancestor so far and built a tree all the way back to these guys.  I have no idea if I have others. I've played around with the connection finder and it's the line here that leads me to Anne:
 

by Chris Ferraiolo G2G6 Pilot (753k points)

1. Chris is the son of Diane Hamel DNA confirmed 
2. Diane is the daughter of Natalie Felker DNA confirmed 
3. Natalie is the daughter of Austin Wilfred Felker DNA confirmed 
4. Austin is the son of Gertrude Frances Stevens DNA confirmed 
5. Gertrude is the daughter of Austin Webster Stevens [confident] 
6. Austin is the son of David Webster Stevens [confident] 
7. David is the son of Rosanna (Taylor) Stevens [confident] 
8. Rosanna is the daughter of Curtis Coe Taylor [unknown confidence] 
 

9. Curtis is the son of Mehitable (Lowe) Low [unknown confidence] 
10. Mehitable is the daughter of Jacob Low Sr [unknown confidence] 
11. Jacob is the son of John Low Sr. [unknown confidence] 
12. John is the son of John Low [unknown confidence] 
13. John is the son of Sarah (Thorndike) Low [unknown confidence] 
14. Sarah is the daughter of Elizabeth (Stratton) Thorndike [unknown confidence] 
15. Elizabeth is the daughter of Anne (Derehaugh) Stratton [unknown confidence] 

dunno about Albini.... that was decided way before I became involved in the project. I've wondered that myself!
The world may never know. Or there's records about it. Either way, this is kind of cool. =) There's still a few Magna Carta connections I am not sure of. At least this one is ironclad.
oh - and there were two sets of father/son: the Clares & the Bigods.
Cool. I wonder if I have a legitimate connection to the Bigods. I will check later.
+5 votes
My great-aunt (maternal) did enough research back in the 60s or 70s to be accepted in Dames of the Magna Carta. Supposedly she was related to Roger Bigod. But Wikitree doesn’t show that relationship. I haven’t paid much attention.

I’m proud of my farmer, stone cutter, cockleshell picking ancestors. I leave the “famous relative seeking” to others.

Maybe my great aunt lied to us haha.
by Kim Williams G2G6 Mach 6 (61.2k points)
Kim, we are probably cousins then! Roger is allegedly my MC ancestor, if one trusts the sometimes sketchy documentation. My ancestry is mostly English, but my brain still hurts when I'm looking at pre-1500 profiles.
Some distant cousins, yes! And I think it said we have 27 ancestors in common! My DNA says I’m 48% English and Northern European and 21% Welsh with droplets of other Europeans.
Mine is all Northern European and British Isles (14% Scandinavian, probably from Yorkshire, once the Danelaw). Ancestry once gave me a Spaniard in the woodpile, but further research proved he/she wasn't a thing. (Spanish Armada shipwreck survivor, maybe? Oh well.) :)

I come from a long line of farmers, with skills I've had to relearn.
+5 votes

No I do not. However, nine of the Barons are identified as my 21st or 22nd grandfathers. I've added to my todo to improve the sourcing of a couple individuals that may solidify the line. Here are the nine barons: 

by Mary Baker G2G6 Mach 1 (13.5k points)
edited by Mary Baker
+5 votes
I am descended through several different lines from all the surety barons.

I think your challenge though about whether the line is sourced is a good one. I need to continue to work on strengthening the genealogical sourcing however I have just checked and I am confident in my descent from the gateway ancestor [[Chauncey-8|Charles Chauncey (bef.1592-1672)]]. There is always room for improvement in adding more sources.
by Anne Young G2G6 Mach 9 (92.3k points)

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