Michael Joyce 1860-1890 can't find correct parents

Question

Hi

I hoping someone can help me . I am putting my tree on wiki and checking the details as I go. I received the tree from my dad who received it from my grandmother.

We believe that all info further back than Michael is incorrect .

We have Michaels marriage certificate which states he married Grace Ann Mahar in Bradford 31/07/1880 aged 21 and his father is Martin a Tailor and deceased. The marriage cert states he is living at 13 Southgate Bradford. After marriage he and Grace are boarders at 5 Kent St Horton where my great grandfather Martin is born .

Michael passed away in 1890 and Grace remarried 2 years later to Michael Timlin.

I am struggling finding Michaels father Martin on any records. There is a Martin Joyce living around the corner at 3 Goitside and a family of Joyce's next door to these at 1 Goitside. There are a few Martins and Michael Joyce's at these addresses in the 1861/1871/1881 census' but non of the ages seem to match up. There is a Michael at 1 Goitside age 11 in 1871 which would be correct but his father is listed as Patrick . The martin at 3 Goitside aged 50 in 1871 would be a possible but he already has a son Michael  who at the time of the census is 17 and working so too old to be the Michael or Martin I'm looking for.

The family story is we originate from Galway Ireland and I can't find anything there either.

I would be eternally grateful if anyone can help.

Sorry about the novel but I wanted to post as much info as possible

Comments

Many problems here ... why can't I find the birth of Michael's younger sister Mary born in Yorkshire, or the death of his mother Catherine? These should be straightforward to locate but I've drawn a blank.

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That's the problem I've had , nothing seems to match , it's so frustrating , I don't know where my gran got things wrong but like you say it should be easy .

We know that the Marriage of Michael to Grace Ann Mahar is correct because my dad remembers his dad talking about his Grandma Grace and his grandad Michael who died young and that his grandma Grace married Michael Timlin a couple of years after his grandad died.

My Dad has just said something sticks in his mind that Michaels Mother could be called Bridget not Catherine , maybe that's the problem , I'll have another look . Thanks for helping ...I'm glad it's not just me that can't work it out Lol

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Hi Marie, I also have a Michael Joyce from County Galway, wonder if they are connected somehow?

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Joyce-2787

I notice a lot of repeating name patterns but I'm sure that is common.

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Hi

I've just had a look , could be but I don't think so , from 1920 I knew most of the people in my tree up to that point and my dad knew them all going back to the ones born 1900.

Who knows though , that's the problem with our Irish relatives they are all Patrick's , martins, Michael, Catherine's and Bridget's Lol .

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Name:	Catherine Joyce
Estimated birth year:	abt 1828
Registration Year:	1898
Registration Quarter:	Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death:	70
Registration district:	Leeds
Parishes for this Registration District:	View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County:	Yorkshire West Riding
Volume:	9b
Page:	295

 FreeBMD. England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2006.

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Hello  Marie Joyce, 

Being a relative of the "Joyce" family (born Joyce) in Victoria, Australia, I can empathise with you.

It can indeed be confusing, especially when the males took on the same name as their paternal father or grandfather and just mixed it around.   eg. Thomas Michael Joyce, Michael Thomas Joyce etc.  

I noticed in the "Joyce book" Co. Donegal to Winton, (which is in Victoria, Australia)  Author's name Carolyn Joyce.  

Isbn no:0-646-646-41029-6 (book no 37 of 200)

For part of the tree, Ralph Joyce and his wife Mary (Middleton) boarded the Castilian Ship as free people late 1856 or early 1857 and emmigrated to Australia with 4 of their children, William, 36, Thomas 23, Sarah 28, & ELiza 26  & their 12 year old grandson and nephew John McMonigle.  It is stated in the book to appease the authorities to board the ship they may have changed the ages to gain permission to travel. 

Shipping documents (Assisted Bounty Immigrants to Port Phillip 1839-1871 - Book 11)

Wishing you all the best in your family journey.  

Kindest Regards,  Jenn Hornstrand 

(ne: Jennifer Anne (b:Joyce) Hornstrand

Living in Riddell's Creek, Victoria, Australia - 23rd, Feb, 2022

Answer 1

What sources have you examined for county Galway?

Comments

What Horton in England? Censuses usually list counties of Irishmen.

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I am using ancestry so checking baptism , marriage death etc .

All info further back than Michael we believe my grandmother got wrong , she began our tree 30 years ago and resources were not as easily searched. All we really have to go on is that Michael according to marriage Cert was born in Bradford 1860, his father was Martin. We have also been told by family stories that his father Martin was born in Galway around 1825 , died in 1875 age 50 and that he was a Tailor .

That's all I have

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I can't find any baptism or anything for Michael apart from the civil registers which give no info apart from his name year of birth and where born , no mention of fathers name birthplace etc

Michael and his wife Grace  were living in Horton Bradford . Michael was born in Bradford . He and Grace had my great grandfather in Horton Bradford .

There are gabillions of Martin Joyce's in Galway I have no way of knowing where in Galway Michaels father was born.

Answer 2

It would seem that there is no Michael born Ireland around 1857 (see 1881 census and age at death) in Yorkshire in 1861.

There is a John, son of Martin, born 1857 in 1871.

I think you have to go back to Ireland but with date 1857 +/- 1

Comments

Michael was born in Bradford Yorkshire , it's his father I am having difficulty with , Michaels father Martin was born in Ireland but I can't find him , from what I understand Martin came from Galway born about 1825 died about 1875 in Yorkshire . I have found a Martin died in Bradford 1875 but it's on the civil register of deaths so it's just Martin Joyce died 1875 Bradford and that's all I can find

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Not according to the 1881 census - born in Ireland.

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The 1871 census has Michael born in Ireland and aged 14 implying a birth year of 1856/7. His marriage certificate claiming 21 in 1880 implies 1858/9 and an age at death of 39 in 1890 implies 1850/1 as his year of birth. Are these even the same person?

The 1875 death for Martin looks right. His age was 50.

JOYCE, MARTIN    50

GRO Reference: 1875  J Quarter in BRADFORD YORKSHIRE  Volume 09B  Page 90

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I know Michael and Grace Ann is correct as per birth certificate because great grandfather Martin (Michael and Graces Son) used to talk about his mum Grace Ann with my grandfather .

My great grandfather Martin (Michaels son) was born at 5 Kent Street Horton , he had a sister Margaret who died in infancy. This much I know as fact .

Michael is listed as living at 13 Southgate Bradford at the time of his marriage with a family of Joyce's , just around the corner at 1 and 3 Goitside are two other families of Joyce's . All the families come from Galway . Our spoken family history has always led us to believe we are related to these families .

Michaels marriage certificate lists him as being born in Bradford and age 20 , with deceased father Martin

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The death record for Martin 1825 - 1875 and the marriage cert for Michael with Martin listed as deceased is the only info I can find concerning Martin

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Thanks everyone for your help so far , it's been frazzling me for a while now

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Have you actually looked at 1881 census for Michael and Grace? He is listed as age 24 and born in Ireland.

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Can you show us this marriage cert?

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I have added the cert to Michaels profile Joyce-2923.

My Dad scanned it to me (I live 200 miles away from him) my dad has the hard copy

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Many of the  Michaels I have come across have different ages etc between each census , nothing tallys up. I think a lot of confusion is because my great great grandfather Michael was illiterate as seen on the certificate and I wonder if they actually knew for certain how old they were :)

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Well, if we go for the 1861 Michael his mother's maiden name was Newall.

And his father was Patrick.

I still think yours was born in Ireland.

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This is my problem Martin , I can only go off the documents I have , why would he say hid father is Martin if he isn't .

Thanks so much for your input Martin , I'm new to all this so I need all the help I can get Lol

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The marriage certificate doesn't say he was born in Bradford. It says he is currently resident in Bradford. (I've never seen an English marriage certificate list a place of birth)

As others have suggested, your next step is to follow up the place of birth given in the census records.