Need help confirming name on baptism record

Question

There is a pending merge for Ysabeau "Carren", mother of Jean Bellan, a pioneer from Rouen (Normandy). Here is Jean's baptism record:

http://www.fichierorigine.com/dossiers/240284.jpg

Fichier Origine gives Ysabeau's name as "Carren", but I am not entirely convinced. What name do you read?

Thanks !

EDIT: a better copy:

http://recherche.archivesdepartementales76.net/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad76%2Fdatas%2Fir%2Fserie_E_seigneuries_familles_notaires_etat_civil%2FFRAD076_IR_E_etat_civil%2Exml&page_ref=2956207&lot_num=1&img_num=26&index_in_visu=

Comments

The merge has been completed into Carren. If something surfaces that would require the name to be looked at again, a new thread could be opened.

Answer 1

PRDH  fiche 4636: Elisabeth CAVRAN . I looked at the hand writhing and it is realy not obvious.

I dont think the two profiles have anything common. I would reject.

Comments

They do have something in common and that is the husband. The profiles were initially both mothers of Jean Belan the pioneer, but the two Jean Belan profiles have now been merged and you can no longer see the son attached to Cavroin-1. But the profiles were both for the mother of Jean Belan. Same person.

Answer 2

I can see why you question "Carren"; it doesn't look much like that to me, either. If I were to venture a guess, I would say "Caudy," but I'm not entirely sure of that, either. It does help that the godparents appear to have the same last name as her, giving three instances to look at instead of just one. It might be helpful if you can find baptismal records for any siblings of Jean, as they may possibly be easier to read.

Comments

Here's a sibling (top left) http://recherche.archivesdepartementales76.net/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad76%2Fdatas%2Fir%2Fserie_E_seigneuries_familles_notaires_etat_civil%2FFRAD076_IR_E_etat_civil%2Exml&page_ref=2956207&lot_num=1&img_num=10&index_in_visu=

I think it's Caran or Cavan.

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And another one (the second one in October, right page). Cavin?

http://recherche.archivesdepartementales76.net/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad76%2Fdatas%2Fir%2Fserie_E_seigneuries_familles_notaires_etat_civil%2FFRAD076_IR_E_etat_civil%2Exml&page_ref=2956207&lot_num=1&img_num=17&index_in_visu=

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And this: last baptism on left page:

http://recherche.archivesdepartementales76.net/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad76%2Fdatas%2Fir%2Fserie_E_seigneuries_familles_notaires_etat_civil%2FFRAD076_IR_E_etat_civil%2Exml&page_ref=2956170&lot_num=1&img_num=74&index_in_visu=

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Top left:

http://recherche.archivesdepartementales76.net/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad76%2Fdatas%2Fir%2Fserie_E_seigneuries_familles_notaires_etat_civil%2FFRAD076_IR_E_etat_civil%2Exml&page_ref=2956170&lot_num=1&img_num=62&index_in_visu=

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This one (11 June, right page) looks like Caron:

http://recherche.archivesdepartementales76.net/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad76%2Fdatas%2Fir%2Fserie_E_seigneuries_familles_notaires_etat_civil%2FFRAD076_IR_E_etat_civil%2Exml&page_ref=2956170&lot_num=1&img_num=57&index_in_visu=

And on this one as well (left):

http://recherche.archivesdepartementales76.net/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad76%2Fdatas%2Fir%2Fserie_E_seigneuries_familles_notaires_etat_civil%2FFRAD076_IR_E_etat_civil%2Exml&page_ref=2956170&lot_num=1&img_num=46&index_in_visu=

On 2 December 1640:

http://recherche.archivesdepartementales76.net/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad76%2Fdatas%2Fir%2Fserie_E_seigneuries_familles_notaires_etat_civil%2FFRAD076_IR_E_etat_civil%2Exml&page_ref=2956170&lot_num=1&img_num=40&index_in_visu=

Answer 3

I do  not see Carren. Looks to be Cau.. but no matter what, I can't see Carren. Good luck.

Comments

I've updated the question with the original scan from the Archives de Seine-Maritime and I think it's Cavin. No idea how they determined it to be Carren. That's not a well-known name and seems more Breton than Normand.

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I could see Cavin before Carren but still remain unconvinced. That final letter really throws me off.

Breton or Normand? Haven't a clue. Your knowledge of that far exceeds my own.

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In the first record, I suspect CAVEN but one letter sems missing, the "e".

For the second record, looks like CAVEN but much more clearly and would fit. However, the "e" at the end looks like an "i".

The question: Why did PRDH chose CAVRAN? To me, the last A is quite questionnable. Only space for 5 letters, the 2 necessary letters "a" would be obvious and similar, which is not the case.

I amplified the size of the writing up to 225%.

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I'm still hunting baptisms for siblings, and the latest I've seen corresponding to children born 1640-1649 really look like Caron. And Caron is a sensible name. I'm posting them all on this thread.

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Les R de ce prêtre sont ouverts, enfin une bonne partie d'entre eux. On le voit dans les actes en dessous de l'acte de baptême de Jean avec par exemple le patronyme BOURDIN, le prénom Marguerite, le second R dans Robert, le premier dans R dans les mots parrain et marraine.

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Mariage de Barnabé BELLAN en 1674 (vue 122), paroisse Saint-Eloi, avec la présence d'un oncle maternel (?)

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Les bans pour le même en 1673 (vue 42)

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Mariage d'une fille de Marie BELLAN en 1660 (vue 125)

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Que lisez-vous? Caron, Caren?

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Je suis incapable de trancher. CARON semble plus logique.

Sépulture CARON en 1677 (vue 191)

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Sur le registre des mariages de 1635, paroisse Saint-Eloi, sauf erreur de ma part, c'est au 30 septembre qu'est mentionné le mariage de Jean BELLAN (vue 52) et celui de Georges CARRON que je lis plutôt CARRAN ici. 

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Le patronyme CARRAN est représenté à Rouen. Exemple ce mariage de 1647, paroisse Saint-Godard. (vue 62) Pierre CARRAN de la paroisse Saint-Michel et Marie LE CAUCHOIS. 

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Orthographié CARAN ou CARRAN, le nom CAR(R)EN semble moins "étrange".

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Sur l'acte de mariage de Jean et Isabeau en 1635 (cité par Hervé, 3 commentaires plus haut), je lis assez clairement :

"Jean Bellen - Isabeau Carren"

Les cinq lettres que j'ai lues E sont très proches les unes des autres, et c'est une graphie à cette époque assez courante du E. Le fait que Bellan devienne Bellen laisse penser que ce -en se prononçait comme -an, et donc que Carren est juste une variante de Carran.

Dans le baptême de leur fils Jean en 1655, on peut lire aussi Carren, avec le même E. Et dans le mariage de leur fils Barnabé en 1674, le curé écrit Bellan mais lui signe Bellen.

Bref, j'aurais tendance à garder Carren, puisqu'à défaut du baptême d'Isabeau son mariage en 1635 est la plus ancienne occurrence de son nom.

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Merci. J'avais loupé ce post avec la référence de l'acte de mariage. C'est bien de là que les orthographes retenues par Fichier Origine doivent venir.

Effectivement l'écriture est assez pénible à lire. Je regrette un peu d'avoir gardé Bellan pour le nom du mari, plutôt que Bellen, du coup.

Je laisse encore un jour ou deux et je pense qu'on va garder l'orthographe Carren (même si presque tous les baptêmes des enfants ne gardent qu'un seul R), le profil avec le nom "Cavroin" devant de toute façon être éliminé.

Answer 4

I read it as Carin, compare the form of the letters in that name with the word marraine just below it, the priest forms the first R in the same manner as in that name.  The pattern repeats itself on some of the other records you dug up, the one in October, compare to the given name Pierre for the godfather. Doesn't look like Caron, the priest forms his O's quite roundly.

Comments

I'm afraid there will be no concensus on this. I'll give it until the weekend and then set an unmerged match.

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would merge the profiles into existing Carren, the other one with Cavroin has no sources and none of us see the name as that.  No sense leaving it hanging when the rest of the data matches.  If we reach consensus later the name can always be corrected.

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Well, I've seen too many comments hinting that proceeding with a merge before being absolutely certain that the LNAB is the correct one and will never ever need to be changed again is very bad (see https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Matching_and_Merging_FAQ#Is_it_ever_OK_not_to_merge_duplicates.3F, "If the two profiles have a conflicting Last Name at Birth, wait until you know which one is correct. This is important.") to dare proceeding in such a case, honestly. 

I should give one last try at finding the actual marriage record (which is mentioned by Fichier) and then, I give up.

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don't like that situation of leaving unmerged match, puts the husband with 2 wives rather permanently.

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LOL, I don't like it at all, but I'm not ready to propose a rule change either. Carren is surely a better option than Cavroin, but still it is a strange and unusual name and somehow doesn't feel right - and none of us sees the same thing in all the records we've seen.

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Merge has been completed.

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beau travail, j'aime bien ta façon d'expliquer le problème du nom sur le profil.