Determining parentage and issue of Thomas Hubbarde

Question

There is ongoing discussion, due to a bad merge a few years ago, with regard to Thomas Hobart and Thomas Hubbarde and children.  See here.

In order to try and finish up with Thomas Hobart, but continue working on Thomas Hubbarde, I have started this thread for discussion.  I think we've all agreed that Thomas Hobart and Thomas Hubbarde are different people.  Now let's see what we can figure out about Thomas Hubbarde...

One of the first things we need to do is try to determine the validity of the following purported record:  "EXTRACT FROM THE MANOR COURT ROLLS OF THE MANOR OF HINGHAM, NORFOLK. AT THE GENERAL COURT Baron with the Leets held for the seaid Manor the Tenth day of June in the Forty Second year of the reign of our Sovereign Lady Elizabeth, by the grace of God of England, France, and Ireland Queen, defender of the faith, and in the year of our Lord God One thousand Five hundred and Ninety NIne, before William Greenaway, Gentleman, Steward thereof. It is amongst other things thus enrolled - Whereas at a General Court Baron with the Leets held for this Manor on the day aforesaid It was found by the Honage of this Court that Thomas Hubbarde of Snoring Magna late Copyhold Tenant of this Manor died since then last Court seised of and in certain Lands and Tenements holden of this Manor by Copy of Court Roll, and that Edmund Hubbarde was his Son and Heir to these Lands and Tenements by a Will dated the Eighteenth day of November in the year of our Lord God One thousand Five hundred and Ninety Eight. And because no person came to be admitted Tenant thereto the first proclamation in due form of Law was made that if and so forth NOW TO THIS COURT comes the said Edmund Hubbarde son of the body of Hellena Hubbarde wife of the said Thomas Hubbarde deceased by the said Thomas Hubbarde lawfully begotten (that is to say) TO six acres of land lying in Hingham WHICH premises the said Thomas Hubbarde and Hellena his wife had and took upon a re-grant from the Lord to them the said Thomas and Hellena for and during the term of their natural lives and after the decease of the said Thomas Hubbarde then TO the use and behoof of the heirs of the body of the said Hellena by the said Thomas Hubbarde Manor the Twenty-first day of October which was in the year of our Lord God One thousand Five hundred and Seventy One, by the Rols of that Court appears. To which the said Edmund Hubbarde the Lord of the said Manor by the hands of his Steward hath delivered seisin by the Rod. To hold to him the said Edmund Hubbarde and the heirs of his body of the Lord of this Manor at the will of the Lord according to the Custom of the said Manor by the ancient and accutomed Rents and Services due, and of right accustomed saving everyone's right. And he gives to the Lord for a fine and so forth, and is admitted Tenants as aforesaid but his fealty is respited until and so forth: Examined by:(signed) Wm GreenawaySteward. Fines: Six acres - fines certain at 4d per acre2:0d. Quit rent 1:8d per annuam. Fees to Steward 10:0d. Fees to clerk 5.0d."

Comments

I located this record (but it's not digitized) at the National Archives.  Note that it mentions landed estate . . .

Exchequer: King's Remembrancer: Escheators' Files, Inquisitions Post Mortem, Series II, and other Inquisitions, Henry VII to Elizabeth I. Hubbard, Thomas: Norfolk.

Held by:	The National Archives - Exchequer, Office of First Fruits and Tenths, and the Court of Augmentations
Date:	17 November 1569 - 16 November 1570
Reference:	E 150/661/7
Subjects:	Landed estates | Litigation

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The website The Snoring Villages has numerous records indexed. Here are some that may be of interest:

BAPTISMS – GREAT SNORING, NORFOLK

	1571	Richard			HUBBARD
	25 Jan 1572/3	Andrew			HUBBARD
	Jan 1573/4	Edward			HUBBARD
	09 Jun 1605	Richard	Edovardi	Anne	HUBBARD
	27 Jul 1606	Sara	Edobardi	Anna	HUBBARD
	21 Dec 1629	Edmond	Joh.	Frances?	HUBBARD				Surname Unclear
	16 Mar 1616/7	Hugo	Eduardi	Anna	HUBBART
	05 Mar 1608/9	Anna	Edwardi	Anna	HUBBERDE				Hubberde

Great Snoring

1570-1578

ANW, will register, Bussell, fo. 611

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BURIALS – GREAT SNORING, NORFOLK

09 Dec 1567	Beatrix	HUBBARD
22 Feb 1563/4	Jellene	HUBBARD						Spelled this way but perhaps means Helen?
25 Jun 1603	Richard	HUBBARD	Son of	Edward	Anne	HUBBARD		Added from extra notes
05 Feb 1572/3	Andreas	HUBBARDE
01 Mar 1577/8	Ellen	HUBBARDE
20 May 1578	Robert	HUBBARDE
25 Mar 1573	Thomas	HUBBARDE

WILLS – GREAT SNORING, NORFOLK

Hubberd, James, of Great Snoring, Norfolk	1554	NCC, administration act book, 1549-1555, fo. 260
Hubbard, Robert, of

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Thanks, Darlene. I went back and incorporated some missing burials and Richard's baptism in Thomas's profile. I think the only one not reflected there is the baptism of Edmond, son of John. I'm not sure where John came from. he doesn't seem to fit as another son of Edward.

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Thanks, Chase.  It's great to have renewed interest in this.  I wish we could get our hands on some of these records in England . . .  

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Re the Edward, son of John baptism. The handwriting on this record is kind of rough and I think it is possibly not Hubbard.

"England, Norfolk, Parish Registers (County Record Office), 1510-1997," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6M4S-JRM?cc=1416598&wc=4J8C-ZZ8%3A29637701%2C29358102%2C29672501 : 25 June 2014), Great Snoring > Baptisms, Marriages, Burials > 1560-1749 > image 25 of 139; Record Office, Norwich.

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Yeah, that's a hard one. . .

Answer 1

 The reasons why the legitimacy of Thomas Hubbarde's will and the copyhold claim of Edmund Hubbarde, his purported son, are being questioned are:

(1) An examination of the January 1573 baptismal record often claimed as being the baptismal record for Edmund Hubbarde indicates that it is actually for an Edward Hubbarde. Additional support for this proposition comes from Great Snoring records for a 1604 marriage of Edward Hubbard and subsequent baptisms of several children to Edward. There thus appears to be no record for the birth or baptism of an Edmund Hubbarde, son of Thomas Hubbarde of Great Snoring.

(2) There are records of multiple other Hubberds/Hubberts in Hingham who were contemporaries of Edmund Hubberte - Simon Hubberd, George Hubberd, Adam Hubbert, Stephen Hubbert, and Robert Hubbert - and no evidence that any of them had any connection with Great Snoring. The suspicion is that the Hubberd/Hubbert family was well settled in Hingham by 1600, that Edmund was a brother of one or more of his contemporary Hubberd/Hubberts, and thus that he originated from there instead of Great Snoring, 25 miles away.

(3) According to RJ Horace: "The style and language and spelling [of/in Thomas Hubbarde's will] all look too modern."

(4) Thomas Hubbarde's purported 1598 will makes a bequest to his wife Hellena. However, there is a burial record that suggests that she may have died in 1578.

(5) Thomas Hubbarde's purported 1598 will makes a bequest to his son Andrew. However, there is a burial record that suggests that Andrew may have died shortly after his birth in 1573. No further evidence of Andrew has been found in the Great Snoring parish records after the record of his birth and possible death.

(6) There only burial record found in Great Snoring parish records for a Thomas Hubbarde is for a burial in 1573, suggesting that Thomas may have died then and his son Edward born posthumously.

(7) The only evidence of Thomas Hubbarde's will and copyhold claim are materials contained in a 1967 report by Keith W Hubbard, which are apparently copies or transcriptions of the will and copyhold claim that were produced by "Ronald F. Kingsbury, Director of Research, Genealogical Enterprises, Norwich, England" in 1956 in response to a $150 reward ($1,400 in current dollars) offered by Kenneth Hubbard. In the past 60+ years, no one else seems to have been able to find a copy of the will and copyhold claim. The suspicion is that Ronald Kingsbury forged the will and copyhold claim in order to collect the reward.

The only way to allay the suspicions that the will and copyhold claim are forgeries is to obtain copies of them from a reputable independent source. 

Comments

Well, I'm not sure if anyone has gone to the National Archives and/or the Norfolk Records Office...  If we have anyone reading that is near either and wants to help, we can give you some items we'd like to see:

National Archives:

Reference:

E 150/661/7

 

The manorial records for HIngham are in the Norfolk Archives. http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/Dserve/dserve.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=0&dsqSearch=(CatalogueRef=='KIM')

Court Roll for 1597-1603  KIM 1/6/29

Court Roll for 1598-1617 KIM 1/6/33  (this one has been microfilmed)

http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/DServe.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=6&dsqSearch=%28CatalogueRef%3D%27KIM%27%29

http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/DServe.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=133&dsqSearch=%28CatalogueRef%3D%27KIM%27%29

http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/DServe.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&

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Darlene - I plan on putting in request to the Norfolk Records Office to have them review the relevant folders to see if the copyhold claim is in there. I also plan to ask for a copy of (1) the 1570-8 will of Robert Hubbard of Great Snoring and (2) the 1616 will of Henry Hubbard of Hingham.

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Sweet!!!   

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I just emailed NRO my requests. They say they try to provide copies and search results within 10 working days, so by February 20 we should have some answers.

Answer 2

I received a quick reply from the Norfolk Records office regarding their search for the copyhold claim:

NRO, General Enquiries	10:29 AM (1 hour ago)
to me

I am afraid that I have not been able to find this entry.  The Hingham court minute book (KIM 1/6/33) has no court between 10 April 42 Elizabeth and 10 November 42 Elizabeth.  The formal court roll (KIM 1/6/29) has court entries for  10 April 42 Elizabeth and 25 July 42 Elizabeth. I am not entirely clear as to the relationship between these books, suspecting that between them they cover both the main manor in Hingham and the manor of Hingham Waters St Andrews and Baconsthorpe (all one manor): however, this does not affect the fact that neither records a court in June 42 Elizabeth.

 

We have a court book for another manor, that of Hingham Rectory (PD 575/63) but it is clearly incomplete as there are no entries at all for the reign of Queen Elizabeth.

 

I can only suggest that either the transcriber has wrongly dated the entry or that it comes from a court roll not held at the Record Office: I believe there is at least one manor, Hingham Gurneys, whose records are still privately held.

Comments

Should've checked this sooner, but you wouldn't think they'd get it wrong.

Elizabeth didn't become Queen until 17 Nov 1558, so June 42 Eliz was actually 1600, not 1599 as stated.  Perhaps the steward miscalculated.

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_TgAVAAAAQAAJ/page/n379

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Hmmm. I would think that the Steward would know what year it was. Another suspicious fact. Thanks for the book link, too!

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Another email from NRO:

NRO, General Enquiries	7:00 AM (8 hours ago)
to me

Dear Mr Ashley

 

We do not appear to hold any will from a Thomas Hubbard of Great Snoring dated 1598, though I see that we do hold an earlier will (in the 1570s), for a man called Thomas Hubbord of Snoring.

ANW, will register, Bussell, fo. 102   Hubbord, Thomas, of Snoring,   1570-1578.

 

And we hold a will of  another Thomas Hubbert dated 1598, but of Palgrave, just across the Suffolk border:

NCC will register Adams 46, Hubbert (Hubbert), Thomas, yeoman, of Palgrave, Suffolk, 1598.

 

We also have another will of a Thomas Hubberd, dated 1588-9 of Walsingham, which is very near to both the Snoring parishes; reference, ANW, will register, James, fo. 38.

 

I suppose that it may be worth checking the index of PCC wills now held at The National Archives (TNA) and which is available online (see this shortcut:http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/wills-1384-1858/ )

 

Otherwise, I cannot think of a likely source of wills of that date.

 

Kind regards

 

Tom

Tom Townsend | Archivist

Norfolk Record Office, The Archive Centre, Martineau Lane, Norwich, Norfolk, NR1 2DQ

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I already have pending requests for a couple of wills. After I get those, I may order: Thomas Hubbord of Snoring, ANW, will register, Bussell, fo. 102   Hubbord, Thomas, of Snoring, 1570-1578. This could be the will for the Thomas who was buried in Great Snoring in March 25, 1572/3, who could be either Hubbarde-3 or his father.

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I just received copies of the 3 wills I ordered from the Norfolk Record Office.  Thomas Hubbard and Robert Hubbard of Great Snoring and Henry Hubbard of Hingham. Unfortunately, they mailed me hard copies rather than emailing me digital copies as I requested, so I will need to scan them in, which may be difficult for some of them because they are on oversized paper, and scanning will also reduce the clarity somewhat. The will of Thomas Hubbard of Great Snoring appears the most useful of the three. The will, dated 1576, makes bequests to wife Helen, daughter Isabell Maye, the children of Isabell, the children of James Symonde (in the same amount as Isabell's children), and smaller bequests to Helen's children. He left the bulk of his estate (including his lands), after wife Helen's decease, to James Symonde. From the nature of the bequests, I think James Symonde was no doubt a son-in-law and that wife Helen was a second (or third) wife, whom Thomas had married late in life and who had children (probably adult children) from her prior marriage (hence the smaller gifts to them). Here's the link to a freespace page I created with a transcription of Thomas's will

This will suggests, but does not prove, that the Thomas who made this will was the Thomas who married Helena Winsofer in 1569. It also suggests that Helen Winsofer probably is the Helen who was buried in 1577/8.

This will does not disprove the authenticity of the will and copyhold claim produced by Ronald Kinsbury, but it is one more bit of evidence that suggests that they may have been forgeries.

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James Symonds and kids here

http://www.the-snorings.co.uk/bmd/GS/baptisms/GSbaptisms.html

but the only two before 1576 don't have a father's name.

He seems to have remarried in 1594.

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Same miscalculation.  20 Eliz began Nov 1577.

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Re no father's name - As I think you (or someone) previously mentioned, the early Great Snoring baptismal records don't list the parents.

Re 1594 marriage - It is possible that the Jacobus Simondes who got married then was the son of the James mentioned in the will.

In any event, I think more most people the issue is whether the will and copyhold claim produced by Ronald Kingsbury in 1956 are legitimate or forgeries made to collect the reward. His documents assume that there was a Thomas and Helen Hubbard of Great Snoring who alive and kicking, with living sons Andrew and Edmund, in 1598. If the will and copyhold claim are not legit, then Edmund Hobart/Hubbard's parentage is unknown and there is no reason to believe that he was born in Great Snoring.

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"Same miscalculation.  20 Eliz began Nov 1577."

I could have misread the date. It could be xxi. I always have trouble with the final i. :-) I'll post a scan of the will when I get a chance to do it.

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I uploaded the images of the will to the freespace page and made some corrections in the transcription. Date does look like Nov 1576, 20 Elizabeth to me.