Does anyone have any idea who this persons might be?

+5 votes
348 views
Came across this "ancestor" of the Bryan family. It might help to sort that out if this person could be identified, or guessed at, but I've had no success. Corrected typo.
WikiTree profile: Richard Berners
asked in Genealogy Help by C. Mackinnon G2G6 Pilot (127k points)
retagged by Maggie N.
This person is in my Family Search, and Ancestry trees, but the genealogists on wiki tree removed that part of my tree.  I’m not confident about this info, but i’ve left it in those two trees, for now.  The hints are not too good and i’m sure anything going back that far is in question.  My ancestry tree is public.  ‘The Barnes Family Treealt’ if you are interested.  Family Search strives for accuracy and they haven’t removed it.

ABG

8 Answers

+3 votes
 
Best answer
Found the source for Richard late last night. He has quite an extensive pedigree on the Visitation of Essex, which raises as many questions as it answers. It's not a real record of a visitation but apparently a compilation
answered by C. Mackinnon G2G6 Pilot (127k points)
selected by RJ Horace
Wahey!  all is revealed.
The "No. 1" narrative pedigree on p. 2 looks like a genuine Visitation pedigree of the period.

The "No. 2" chart looks like a typical attempt of the notorious "Elizabethan heralds" to connect a nouveau-riche family to a more famous and ancient family.

However, the No 1 line begins with a Sir Thomas Barneas of Horseley, so in this case it looks very possible that this Sir Thomas really was a younger brother of Sir James and the connection is genuine.
Think I've worked it out. It was a mistake, probably not a conscious fraud. No 2 says that Frances, daughter of John Howard, duke of Norfolk married John Bowsey, brother of Margaret Bowsey. She actually married John Bourchier who was the brother of Margaret Bourchier, wife of the judge's son, another Sir Thomas Bryan. Not a fraud but a 400 year old mistake.
Gets worse. That pedigree also says Humphrey Bowsey married a Tylney. Margaret and John Bourchier's parents were Humphrey Bourchier and Elizabeth Tylney. Margaret and John Bourchier's sister Anne married Sir Thomas Fiennes 8th Lord Dacre of the South.
+6 votes

I believe that someone has concocted an entire line of Bryan males, some real, some myth, to extend the ancestors of the Bryans who immigrated to Virginia. I have been researching this ancestry for several years and it has been bought and sold all over the internet, and now seems taken as fact. I think it would be the right thing to do for Wikitree to stand up and say this is false, here's why, and stand our ground. Trouble is, its a big project. 

Maybe someone on Wikitree can start a Myth Busters Project.

answered by Jeanie Roberts G2G6 Pilot (120k points)
AFAIK there is a project or at least a category about persons who are a myth. Maybe someone else can help my memory...

See this Main Category on Fictitious and Legendary Genealogy

Possibly one of Sub-Categories will do?

There is also a project led by Isabelle Rassinot called Disproven Existence. She might be able to help.

Uncertain seems apropos, although disproven might work for some of them, but a one name study type extension category would be useful to show the extent that the Bryan line(s) have been affected.
+3 votes
Went out to lunch but couldn't stop thinking about this. Pathertic! Decided to create a free space profile and gather on it information about all the profiles real or otherwise that seem to be involved. Seems that would be a better way of managing this than continuing to leave comments on the profiles (which has been going on for years). Let you know when it's up and running.
answered by C. Mackinnon G2G6 Pilot (127k points)
Let me know if I can help. I wrote the article 'Evolution of William Smith Bryan'. William Smith is the lynch pin between Francis Bryan III and the Virginia Bryans.

Excellent.  One point though.  The Missouri book is a 1935 reprint by Elwang

https://archive.org/details/historyofpioneer00bryauoft/page/n6

with a long introduction added by himself, and it's Elwang's introduction that tells the William Smith Bryan story.  Of course Elwang had the 1915 Shearer/Akers book etc to get his material from.

The 1876 original by William S Bryan evidently didn't have that story.  It only had the story on page 132 about the Welsh William Bryan of Maryland and his supposed descendants in NC.  This ties in with the "creative" Life of Daniel Boone in the same book, though sadly for romance, it looks like Rebecca's father wasn't called William.

I adopted one of these profiles and am supposedly a descendant (but who knows, right?). Happy to make any edits necessary, C.
+2 votes
turn it over to "Disproven Existance Adjunct" group. I have seen a few profiles with their emblem!
answered by Jamie Thompson G2G4 (4.1k points)
Intend to when I've worked out which ones seem to be made up. Meanwhile I've stared a page if anyone's interested. [[Space:Bryan family possible fabrication]]. Added brackets
Absolutley no idea why that doesn't work. Back to the drawing board.
+2 votes
Disproven or a similar tag can be edited into your original question, then the question will come up for those following.

I have Bryans, and was totally  confused  when I started to connect my line. Some of them use valid sources. Too many, not so much.

Kudos on the initiative and concept. It's a great idea to document the challenged profiles.
answered by Fann Fann G2G6 Mach 2 (24.8k points)
+2 votes
answered by RJ Horace G2G6 Pilot (435k points)

The plot thickens.  Geni has a John Barnes b 1416 Chelmsford who married a Margaret Jermyn

https://www.geni.com/people/John-Barnes/6000000001845205451

And so does WikiTree

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Barnes-2590

Same story as Find A Grave, except Margaret Deol de St Germaine becomes Margaret Jermyn, and John isn't called Bowsey.  Or Sir.

+1 vote
Maybe the Find A Grave memorial for the daughter that is listed for him might give some insight?  https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/145267603/margaret-deol-barnes

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:33N8-8G1
answered by Janne Gorman G2G6 Mach 2 (21.8k points)
+1 vote

Thank you, C. Mackinnon, for creating the Free Space and working on the Bryan line. I have Bryan's in my line. My second great grandmother was a Bryan. So, I am interested to learn more.   

Wondering if the following Bryan line is a good/true Bryan line?

Lewis (Bryan-2063) Jr., (1780-1850) - profile has a death certificate

Lewis (Bryan-2065) Sr., (1745-1779) - DAR, North Carolina Hist. Gen. Reg., Vol 1 (1900), quarterly issues 1-4 bound: issue 4 (October), page 577., Book reference and Burial Location.  

William Benjamin (Bryan-778)  - Notable Southern Families Volume II, DAR, North carolina Hist. Gen. reg., etc. 

Needham (Bryan-1125) I 

William (Bryan-1413) Sr

John (Bryan-284)

William Smith (Bryan-72)

Francis (Bryan-73) 

Thank you!

answered by Anonymous Carroll G2G6 Mach 4 (42.6k points)
edited by Anonymous Carroll

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