Can we project protect Nathaniel Thayer? [closed]

+4 votes
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Can we Project Protect Nathaniel Thayer?  There's so much confusion and misinformation in this line and the profile was originally conflated with the Nathiel who was in PGM.

 I don't know if he would fall under Massachusetts or PGM adjacent?
WikiTree profile: Nathaniel Thayer
closed with the note: Profile has been project protected
in Genealogy Help by M Cole G2G6 Mach 8 (89.4k points)
closed by M Cole

1 Answer

+4 votes
 
Best answer
I have protected the profile under Project: Massachusetts.
by Ellen Smith G2G Astronaut (1.5m points)
selected by M Cole
Excellent.  Thank you!
Did any of you, who I sent the report from Taunton, to, have anything to say about the report?
Well, we learned that the Old Colony History Museum doesn't have any material we weren't already aware of, other than a snippet of information about the inferred burial site of Mary (Thayer) Burt.

Their report mostly seems to be derived from Patricia Thayer Muno's book. Since I hadn't seen the book, the content is informative, but unfortunately it's not clear what the evidence/sources for the various bits of information are.

PS - I'm sorry I didn't comment earlier, but my mailbox is full of messages from noreply@wikitree.com with the subject "Your WikiTree profile," and if I don't respond immediately it can be hard to identify a particular message to get back to it. When sending a private message, it helps to customize the subject line to identify the topic.
I see. Well, I told the curator at Taunton about the objections. He said he would argue the opposite--that Patricia did deep research as well as the math and that this is probably the best information available.
I don't doubt that Patricia's research was thorough and that this information is the best that's available. It's just that the field of genealogy -- which deals with a lot of "information" of unidentified provenance, some of which is unfortunately found to be seriously bad -- has evolved standards of evidence that require identification of sources (and I know you subscribe to the need for good sources, as indicated by your concern about identifying evidence for the parents of the members of this family), but I can't tell which of Patricia's facts are based on primary records and which are based on inference, secondary sources, family tradition, etc.
I agree with Ellen's comments.  On the one hand, what they sent you has a nice narrative feel to it.  Unfortunately, that approach tends to cut away the specifics of evidence.  If you look at Ravenscroft's presentation of the family, she qualifies the inclusion of three children as probable, and one as only possible.  How did we get from there to all nine children a certainty? Or was it at some point more convenient to leave out the question marks?

I'm a little surprised that they didn't just send photocopies of the sources so you can evaluate the information. (Maybe Muno's book does include more on the sources and they didn't include it in their report?)

I also thought that they might have information on his role in the Taunton Iron Works, which might be useful.
I do believe in using good sources. In fact, I just enrolled in the genealogy course through Boston University($995.00 plus my time), so that I can become better at it. However, to me, anyway, it seems as if using the best information available, until, when and if, better information becomes available, is reasonable.There is certainly much less respectable information posted in other Wiki profiles. Not that I am promoting crappy genealogy sourcing, but we both believe Patricia's work is pretty solid. Also, we could always put in the notes of the bio. that "this is the best information we have at this time."
Would anyone object to my sending this discussion to Taunton?
That's exciting about the B.U. course, Elizabeth! I hope it's all you were looking for, and more.

Regarding 'the best information," my main concern is that, rather than presenting qualitative assessments of our information, we should say where our information came from. It should be understood that not all "facts" are going to meet the stringent standards of an entity like the Mayflower Society, and that many profiles are going to be based on some form of "best available information," but that "best available" information might have a number of different types of origins. Maybe it's family tradition of the Thayer family, as documented by [Author] in an 1886 book, or maybe it's a situation where several people named Thayer recorded in Taunton are inferred to be from this particular set of parents because that couple were the only Thayer adults of the right approximate age believed to be in Taunton at the right time. Those are examples of just two different types of information that might be called "best available," and that I think need to be distinguished.

In recent visits to museums and historic sites in England and the United States, I've noted with interest that more than a little of the historic information is based on tradition rather than records (e.g., a sign might say "...is thought to be the site where..."). If the historians associated with highly respected museums and historic sites can communicate history without pinning down every detail, it does make us genealogists look absurdly nitpicky when we insist on trying to find baptism and marriage records for every obscure individual person in our ancestry. However, I think that the historians who create narratives for museums insist on knowing what the stories they tell the public are based on. It's just that they don't communicate all of the details in their public exhibits because it would interfere with the narrative and would bore most of the audience. Genealogy has a bad legacy of people  blandly accepting -- and republishing -- nicely written family history stories without having a clue where the data came from, with the result that utter garbage (including out-and-out fraudulent pedigrees) sometimes gets propagated. To get past this, modern genealogists are insisting on knowing where our information comes from (as a good historian would), rather than simply accepting nicely told stories and well-drawn pedigrees because they come from somebody who seems to know what they are doing.

I have no objection to sharing this conversation with the museum folks. (Note that the conversation is already on the public Internet!)
Ellen, I appreciate the time you took in writing these responses (M. Cole, too). Funny, in the midst of all of this, Patricia Muno Thayer tagged me on facebook, and we just had a private conversation. Time did not allow for all of the questions to be answered, but Patricia did tell me to send them to her, which I am going to do, when I mail her my book order. She told me that the book does have sources, where sources were available. The fire burned many of them up, as we already know. I did not get into specifics, but I did direct her to this thread. She is swamped--working 16 hours a day to complete her newest work, and she has been at this, researching the Thayer family, for 46 years. Amazing! I will also send this to Taunton. I have them looking up my Lincoln and Cobb line (which is also a problem, due to the fire). We will see what comes of it all. ~Elizabeth

This is a public discussion.  They are welcome to participate. No secrets on the internet!

I'm not clear on what you would like added to the profile.  It already includes a section on the possibility of William being Nathaniel's father as promoted by the Thayer Families Association.

I know, but the profile is not connected to his parents, so it sits there, stuck, and parentless, without siblings to build on, either, forever. :(.
That is great. I guess I should have known that, since I do know this is public. I was just trying to be polite. I was unsure about the etiquette.

I guess in all of this discussion, I'm more concerned that some of children connected to Nathaniel have been forced into adoption, attached to the wrong parents, forever....no one trying to find the truth of where they really came from. wink

I would love to have all of the children placed and sourced properly, without question, as well. If only those danged records didn't burn up!
There are other ways. For the daughters, I would look for maternal line descendants willing to do a mtDNA test, and then look for the same from Abigail Harvey's sister Experience, or daughters Abigail and Deborah.  If they don't match, then they are likely not daughters of Abigail Harvey. And while a positive match wouldn't be proof, it would be another piece of evidence.

Its a lot of work and expense, and takes a little luck to find unbroken, provable maternal lines over so many generations.  But it can be done.  If you did the leg work, I bet you could find others willing to help pay for the testings.

Edit: Just looked at the DNA Descendants for Abigail, and it looks like there are some living mtDNA descendants here on wikitree, so if that line can be validated, that would be a really good start.

M. Cole--I am not sure how to do that. Would it be useful (in solving this particular riddle) for me to do the mtDNA testing? Here is my line to Abigail. I have done the autosomal DNA. I have proven my Jackson ancestry, through multitudes of Jackson cousin matches with the autosomal DNA. 

Abigail is the 9th great grandmother of Elizabeth

1. Elizabeth is the daughter of [private mother] [unknown confidence]
2. [Private] is the daughter of Betsy (Jackson) Birch [unknown confidence]
3. Betsy is the daughter of Harry W Jackson [unknown confidence]
4. Harry is the son of Noah Harrison Jackson [unknown confidence]
5. Jackson is the son of Noah Willard Jackson [unknown confidence]
6. Noah is the son of Alfreda (Cobb) Jackson [unknown confidence]
7. Alfreda is the daughter of Richard Cobb [unknown confidence]
8. Richard is the son of Constant (Burt) Cobb [unknown confidence]
9. Constant is the daughter of Nathaniel Burt [unknown confidence]
10. Nathaniel is the son of Mary (Thayer) Burt [unknown confidence]
11. Mary is the daughter of Abigail (Harvey) Thayer [confident]
<!-- it's the last -->This makes Abigail the ninth great grandmother of Elizabeth.

MtDNA is passed down from a mother to her children.  So your mtDNA would be from your ancestors on your maternal line, basically the very lowest line on your pedigree chart.  There's a tool under "Family Tree and Tools" tab called "DNA Descendants" that will show you the mtDNA descendants on wikitree that should share mtDNA: See: https://www.wikitree.com/treewidget/Harvey-262/890

So, for Mary, you would need to research the descendants of her daughters who had daughters,who had daughters, etc.  Then when you find someone living, hopefully a genealogist, you have to write and ask them if they're willing to do a DNA test.  The person doing the test can be male or female, just as long as all the ancestors that connect to Mary are women. Looks like Mary had three daughters who married, so that's a good start.

For the mtDNA to compare to, looks like you might reach out to Wikitree member Richard Belcher, as he created many of the profiles that are potentially proven maternal descendants that you would be looking to match.
Nice explanation by M. Cole. And I'm impressed to see that Abigail has a lot of mtDNA descendants who could be living! It looks like there's a reasonable chance of finding people to do tests.
I was surprised too!  I also poked around in the FamilySearch tree, and right away, it looks like there are a few for Mary (Thayer) Burt's daughter Mehitable.  Of course, that sometimes falls apart when you go to validate all the connections....

But still, I've been working on setting up a test like this for another project...and its taken over a year to find a couple of potential test takers. And I worry, that if we get some weird result we won't have any other people to test to help clarify.

But this line has some real potential...
Okay, I am familiar only with autosomal DNA, at this time; so, keep that in mind when I sound ignorant about the other forms of DNA testing. With that being said, what I do understand from this is that my MtDNA is basically worthless in this situation, due to my line coming through Mary's SON, Nathaniel Burt.
I do have one recent "fun" find. I am a autosomal DNA match to a living woman who shares 7th great grandparents with me, and they happen to be Nathaniel Burt (son of Mary in this discussion) and his wife, Constant Lincoln. All the stars aligned and we were estimated to be 5-8th cousins, by Ancestry, and both of our paper trails show we are 8th cousins, with no other likely possibilities that we can see. So, the paper trail and the DNA match are all in agreement.
Sorry, but we each have 256 sets of 7G grandparents, and the chance of two people (8th cousins) getting the same meaningfully long DNA segment from the same 7G grandparent is practically nil. Chances are good that you share closer ancestors you haven't identified yet, or your match is at least partly coincidental. It's always exciting to find an autosomal DNA match and identify a relationship, but this kind of match doesn't prove anything.
Killjoy! LOL! Well, I was excited about it. I suppose I need to find others and then analyze our DNA in the chromosome browser, or whatever it is called, on GEDmatch, to see if we share the exact same segment, in the exact same chromosome. I have also been told this is absolutely possible. I do not know the credentials of those (including yours) who are answering my DNA questions, however.
Ellen: What are the chances of two people, who never met, being a DNA match AND finding they have identical people in their family trees, at the precise level that coincides with their DNA match estimate? That must also be a little bit rare. Our trees existed before we found our match.
Elizabeth, Ellen's explanation is 100% correct. 8th cousins is much too far back for auDNA to be meaningful when comparing just two people. See this chart: https://isogg.org/wiki/autosomal_%20DNA_statistics#Table

It doesn't even list expected shared amounts for relationships beyond 5th cousins. If you share any more than 3 cM, your relationship is certain to be a closer than 5th cousins. Do both you and your match know all your ancestors back to your 7th G grandparents? If not, how do you know that your trees don't intersect somewhere closer?
I love finding autosomal DNA matches with people who are also mapped as distant cousins, and it does give me a wee bit of extra confidence that our genealogies are accurate, but it really doesn't prove anything.

Based purely on mathematics, the predicted match at the 8th cousin level is zero. Of course, since DNA is not distributed to offspring with mathematical precision, real values don't match the predicted value. That's why we look at statistical information on the distributions of reported matches for different relationships, but in order to interpret the statistical data, we need to understand what it really represents. At https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4 , Blaine Bettinger shows an average match of 12 cM for 8th cousins, but that's an average among 8th cousins who reported a match greater than zero (it doesn't include people who had no match reported, which probably means it doesn't include people who got matches less than around 7 cM because the testing services don't show us real short matches). Also, it's based on self-reported relationships between cousins who probably don't have perfect knowledge of their ancestry (for example, it's possible that my 8th cousin and I are 4th cousins on another ancestral branch that is a brick wall for one or both of us).
Citation Information
Detail
Ancestry DNA match for EAZiegler61 and M.S. (managed by BarbaraScanlon04)
Web Address
www.ancestry.com/connect/Profile/0025E880-0001-0000-0000-000<br/>000000000<br/>

Source Information
Title
Ancestry DNA Match
Author
Ancestry DNA
Note
Constant Lincoln: Common Ancestor in family trees for DNA match between EAZiegler61 and M.S. (M.S.'s DNA is managed by BarbaraScanolon04) 5-8th cousins. Confidence: Good. 17cM across 1 DNA segment. Constant is 7th great grandmother to EAZiegler and M.S. in both family trees.
Publisher
Ancestry DNA
Publisher Location
https://www.ancestry.com/connect/Profile/0025E880-0001-0000-0000-000000000000

Ellen: I will keep looking for more matches like this. Then, maybe I  will be able to compare them all, using the DNA tools on GEDmatch. Till then, I am still excited about this wee bit of extra confidence, and, I do understand what you are saying. I just explained almost the same thing to someone else a couple of days ago. But, it does make me hopeful, and I like hopeful.
Hi Kay Wilson, You are correct, I don't know with 100% accuracy. Maybe I am even 100% wrong. However, there are ways to know with higher accuracy, once I have more matches like this one. It is rare, but still possible.
Hey guys, I closed this thread.  It was initially just to request project protection for Nathaniel Thayer, which is done.

I think if there is additional discussion on DNA or other issues around Nathaniel, it would be best to start a separate thread.
I agree.

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