thank you so much for your answer. ok I guess regroup is in order, like you said, the recipes change , so I guess I dodn't look at it that way, and thanks for the tip about. and I was really looking for originals. I will check out those societies and other lnks, Pensylvania Duthc, thats one I didn't think about. so a lot of research today. yes shoo fly pie, haven't had that in ages! Maybe I will just try that out, ever hear of vinegar pie? anyway thanks for this, given me new insight to look elsewhere,