Need death details for Rosina Elizabeth Jelley nee Avery

Question

Re: Rosina Elizabeth Jelley nee Avery

On my Mothers side I have traced back until the 1700's but one person, My Great Grandmother's death alludes me. Would be grateful for any help at all, as I am not able to find out this information & would love to know where she died and where she was buried.

Rosina Elizabeth Jelley nee Avery. Born 4 Jan 1881 in Bermondsey London

She married Arthur Thomas William Jelley DOB 23 Sept 1878 in Kensington London. They married on 22 Dec 1901 in St Mary Magdalene Church, Bermondsey London. Arthur died on 24 Nov 1955 in Lambeth London.

They had 4 Sons (Arthur 1902, Francis 1906, Walter 1909 & Richard 1913) & 1 Daughter (Rosina 1911, who died aged 18 months in 1912)

Walter Thomas Jelley is my Grandfather, his Daughter Barbara is my Mother. (Walter, who called himself Thomas Avery, changed his surname by Deed Poll, to Avery in the mid 1940's due his great hatred of his father.(Avery was his mothers maiden name) Another brother Francis also changed his name, when he married he took his wife's name Angliss

Rosina's Father is Thomas Avery born 1847 in Barnstaple Devon, died 1895 in Torrington in Devonshire.  Her Mother is Charlotte E N Toomey born 1845  in Walworth Surry, died 1900 in Hamstead London.  They were married in 19 Aug 1866 in Lambeth London.

I have ordered a few death certificates and none of them have been correct.

Rosina & Arthur I understand did not have a happy marriage, due to the fact that he drank a lot. Rosina left him about 1915 +  she took Richard with her and then she disappears from history. I can find no info on Richard Jelley, except a ships voyage to Australia on 6 March 1929, when he was 15 years old (but not confirmed as definitely him).

When Rosina left,  Arthur put the 4 boys into St Olavs Workhouse (I can find no details, but this is what my Grandfather told my Mother)

Arthur took up with a lady called Rosetta Elizabeth Sawyer 1885-1966, they went on to have 2 boys & a girl. There is no evidence of a marriage between these two, but on on 1939 Register she is listed (very strangely) as Rosina Elizabeth Jelley (which is then crossed out in red & Rosetta listed) their 3 children are known as Jelley. 

There is a Rosina Jelley listed as dying in 1921, but after I bought details of this, this Rosina is a 4 year old child.

As I live in Sydney Australia, I am not able to do any leg work, otherwise I would have visited St Mary Magdalene church & BDM myself. If anyone can help me find the date and/or place of death I would be so grateful. 

Many Thanks

Jeanette Cooper

Comments

Whoever's father he was, Thomas Avery died where he lived and worked in St. Olave's, Southwark.

"England and Wales Death Registration Index 1837-2007," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2JGV-323 : 31 December 2014), Thomas Avery, 1895; from "England & Wales Deaths, 1837-2006," database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Death, St. Olave Southwark, London, England, General Register Office, Southport, England

Answer 1

Can I ask how you know the Rosina Elizabeth Avery who married Jelley in 1901 was born 4 Jan 1881 in Bermondsey?

The only Rosina Avery I can see born in 1881 was born in Fulham, not Bermondsey, and there's no mother's maiden name which usually indicates an illegitimate birth.

AVERY, ROSINA         -     
GRO Reference: 1881  M Quarter in FULHAM  Volume 01A  Page 278

Your information on the children is correct although there was another son Albert John who died as an infant.

JELLEY, ARTHUR  ALFRED       AVERY     
GRO Reference: 1902  D Quarter in ST OLAVE BERMONDSEY  Volume 01D  Page 233

JELLEY, ALBERT  JOHN       AVERY     
GRO Reference: 1904  S Quarter in SAINT OLAVE BERMONDSEY  Volume 01D  Page 216

JELLEY, FRANCIS  WILLIAM       AVERY     
GRO Reference: 1906  J Quarter in ST OLAVE BERMONDSEY  Volume 01D  Page 221

JELLEY, WALTER  THOMAS       AVERY     
GRO Reference: 1910  M Quarter in ST OLAVE, BERMONDSEY  Volume 01D  Page 163

JELLEY, ROSINA         AVERY     
GRO Reference: 1911  D Quarter in ST. OLAVE (BERMONDSEY)  Volume 01D  Page 317

JELLEY, RICHARD  JOHN       AVERY     
GRO Reference: 1913  D Quarter in ST. OLAVE (BERMONDSEY)  Volume 01D  Page 320

Death:
JELLEY, ALBERT  JOHN       0
GRO Reference: 1904  S Quarter in ST OLAVE BERMONDSEY  Volume 01D  Page 124

Comments

Hi Matthew... Wow thank you, I did not know there was another child (Albert John) born to Rosina & Arthur. He was born & died in the same quarter 1904. I cited the 1911 census which listed 1 child had died, but had presumed it was Rosina Junior.

I know the Rosina Avery you are referring too as being illegitimate and being born in 1881 in a work house, (As i initially thought this was her) but this is not the same one. My Rosina was definately born on 4 Jan 1881 in Bermondsey. I have her mother listed as Charlotte Toomey, Also on her marriage banns as well it indicates her Father as being Thomas Avery.

Still her death is a mystery, but so appreciate your assistance.

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There was a Thomas Avery who married Charlotte Toomey in Lambeth on 1 July 1866

"England Marriages, 1538–1973 ," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N6FD-RJV : 10 February 2018), Thomas Avery and Charlotte Toomey, 01 Jul 1866; citing St. Mary'S, Lambeth, Surrey, England, reference item 2 p 298, index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm 1,041,669

However their daughter was called Rose and born in 1884.

AVERY, ROSE  ELIZABETH VALENTINE      TOOMEY     
GRO Reference: 1884  S Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 27

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Charlotte E N Toomey & Thomas Avery were married on 19th Aug 1866 at St Mary's Church Lambeth. Yes their Daughter is listed as Rose E Avery on the census, but she is Rosina (rose) Elizabeth Avery. My Mother had her Birth Certificate

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Sorry to keep badgering you on this point but I think it's important.

Coming to this cold it appears as if you're claiming someone with the wrong name (Rose not Rosina) and the wrong date of birth (1884 not 1881) was the Rosina Elizabeth Avery who married Jelley.

Did your mother have the birth certificate because she'd ordered it (and therefore could have got the wrong person) or because she'd inherited the original? Do you have the Jelley - Avery marriage certificate? That should have Rosina's age.

I'm not concerned about the mismatch between the dates 1 July and 19 Aug for the marriage as marriage banns have sometimes transformed into marriages at online sites.

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Here are some images of the records in case they help (all should be visible even without an Ancestry subscription):

Marriage of Rosina Elizabeth Avery and Arthur Thomas Jelley on 22 Dec 1901 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/16028289?h=09c6a4

Marriage of Thomas Avery and Charlotte Toomey on 19 Aug 1866 - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/16028296?h=be2ea1

1891 census showing Rose (born about 1884 in Bermondsey) with her parents Thomas and Charlotte - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/16028311?h=cfafed

1911 census showing Rosina (born about 1883 in Bermondsey) with her husband Arthur - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/16028314?h=49ed69

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Many thanks Paul.

I still contend that Rose the daughter of Thomas and Charlotte was not the Rosina who maried Arthur Jelley. Her age is wrong, her name is wrong.

Admittedly I can't find her on the 1901 census which would probably settle matters. Her father definitely died in 1895 and her mother possibly did in 1900 (I'm not sure about that Hampstead death). In any event the household had broken up. I found both her brothers easily enough but she remains elusive.

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I also can't find her in the 1901 census. I have found the entry for 7 Abbey Street, Bermondsey which is the address she gave when she married in December 1901, but when the census was taken in March 1901 the two families living there were called Hart and Green and there is nobody there called Rose or Rosina. In fact everybody at that address was born either before 1873 or after 1889, so she is definitely not there on that date.

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Incidentally the Rosina Avery born in Q1 1881 Fulham died soon after birth so we can strike her from the reckoning.

AVERY, ROSINA    0  

GRO Reference: 1881  M Quarter in FULHAM  Volume 01A  Page 181

I'm still uneasy about the identification of Rose Elizabeth Valentine Avery as Mrs Jelley though. She would have been lying that she was 20 (she was barely 17).

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Hi Matthew & Paul, I so appreciate your time & effort on this.  I have a full ancestry subscription & have copies of certificates but can't copy & past on here. I see what you are saying re possible incorrect birth cert being ordered for Rosina, also the marriage bans show no date of birth just says " of age" for both. Also I used to be in touch with the granddaughter of Francis (frank) Jelley (Angliss) she had the birth certificate as well of Rosina. Hers was the same as my mums. It's a complete mystery to me now & im starting to question everything but feel in my gut that Rose E V Avery is my Rosina. I've gone from question of death to now of birth & death

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badger all you like Matthew, I'm very appreciative of any help. For my Mother, I would love to get to the bottom of this. Living in Australia it's difficult to get to the actually source at time. If not resolved, I'm hoping that during my visit to London at Christmas time, I might be able to do some leg work at BDM or St Mary Magdalene Church

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Well you might be right and Rosina just lied about her age. You won't find any records at St Mary Magdalene. The parish records seem to be held at the London Metropolitan Archives which is in Clerkenwell. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/c4f456fe-4576-48bd-9424-9ebd7e1e7615

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I also cant find Rosina listed in the 1901 census. She was still an Avery when the census was taken as she did not marry until later that year. The last recorded address I can find (via Ancestry) was taken in 1918. Both Rosina Elizabeth & Arthur Thomas William Jelley were living at 25 St Pauls Cres South East St Pancras & listed in the Camden Parliamentary & local gov electors. This is the last entry of her that I can find.

Answer 2

Rosina Elizabeth Jelley ,Burial Date Dec 12 1921, Southwark ,London

England, Ancestry.Com

Comments

Thank you for your help, but this is not correct, the Rosina Elizabeth Avery who died 12 Dec 1921 is aged 4 months old, and her Mothers Maiden name is Sawyer. I found her on "Deceased Online" she is buried at Nunshead Cemetary.

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Don't you find it strange that Arthur and Rosetta would name their child Rosina Elizabeth after his first wife? I don't think you'd do that unless she were dead and you were trying hard to virtue-signal how wonderful she had been. Do you think Arthur perhaps murdered her and claimed she'd disappeared? The later behaviour of the sons could be explained by their suspicions.

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Hi Matthew, Arthur Jelley was really hated by his Sons, even as a child I knew this from my Grandfather. I was told he was an obnoxious drunk, who was a bit heavy handed as well?? He dumped all 4 kids in St Olavs workhouse. The eldest didnt have to go as he was a little older, but went in to look after his other 3 brothers. When I found out that Arthur & his 2nd wife Rosetta??  had named their first child after his wife I found it VERY strange... but figured it was maybe after his only Daughter Rosina who died of TB aged 18 months.

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Thank you Wayne. This Rosina is only 4 months old & is the Daughter of Arthur Jelley second wife, confusing as Arthur's first daughter also Rosina died age 18 months from TB

Answer 3

The only Rosina Elizabeth Avery I could find on Findmypast is

First name(s) ROSINA ELIZABETH

Last name AVERY

Marriage quarter 4

Marriage year 1901

Registration month -

MarriageFinder ™

ROSINA ELIZABETH AVERY married one of these people

Alfred Ernest Bennett

District St. Olave Southwark

District number -

County London

Country England

Volume 1D

Volume as transcribed 1D

Page number 392

Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005

Category Life Events (BDMs)

Subcategory Civil Marriage & Divorce

Collections from Great Britain, England

Comments

Yes I saw this too. Unfortunately the "MarriageFinder" bot failed to work on this one. Each page has two entries as normal in UK records. Here is the data from FreeBMD.

Marriages Dec 1901

Avery Rosina Elizabeth St. Olave 1d 392

BENNETT Alfred Ernest St. Olave 1d 392

Day Mary Beatrice St. Olave 1d 392

JELLEY Arthur Thomas St. Olave 1d 392

Alfred Bennett married Mary Day

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Thank you Marion, Rosina Elizabeth Avery definitely married Arthur Thomas William  Jelley on 22/12/1901 at st Mary Magdalene Church in Bermondsey. I have seen the marriage certificate & all the info on Ancestry.