Why ask for my approval?

Question

I was asked to approve a pre-1500 merge. I have examined it, and notwithstanding some false information on one of the pages, I have approved it, as asked. I still do not understand why someone of my vast experience as a professional genealogist is refused pre-1500 certification.

Comments

I understand his frustration.  It didn’t take more than a 2 minute google search and 2 minute check of his contributions to know that he is far more qualified than the vast majority of those who already hold the pre-1500 badge.

Those of you who are so concerned about following proper procedure forget why the pre-1500 certification badge was originally put in place.  Gregory is the type of person we want contributing to wikitree, not someone we want to frustrate to the point he leaves.  I have no doubt he will be a valuable contributor to the pre-1500 team.

PS:  I would also be interested in the reason pre-1500 certification was originally turned down?

---

Joe, I would certainly hope no one's going to tell us why his certification was turned down.  It's no one's business but his and the pre-1500 team.

---

All of us working under a single set of standards, rules, and procedures helps to create a cohesive community.  Making exceptions and special concessions for certain people works against that goal.  For a new member to be 'one of us,' he has to share the common experience.  Otherwise, some animals are more equal than others.  And as others have noted, no matter how advanced his genealogical skills, a new member has to learn WikiTree.  I think few people would call that easy.

---

Gregory, I'm not sure why the request was turned down in June of last year but I've asked the group who reviews the pre-1500 requests to take another look at yours.  

To Joe and others, anyone who has experienced this is always welcome to ask for us to do another review.  We encourage and want people to take whatever steps are asked of them and then be able to certify.   This process was put into place after numerous discussions with the community and we need to follow it for every member regardless of their level of genealogical expertise.  As others have mentioned, it is not just about that but there were other factors that the community decided needed to be included to receive that particular certification.

---

I must have just popped to the bathroom when the numerous discussions with the community were going on.

---

Apparently so.

---

Here you go, RJ. Looks like one of the earlier discussions is here. You participated in that discussion and this one. It was a while ago. :-)

---

Oh I remember the pre-1000 discussion.  But pre-1000 was a totally different animal.

---

Looks like it evolved into pre-1500, though.

---

The way mice evolved into elephants.

Answer 1

Getting pre-1500 accreditation is not easy

See

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Pre-1500_Profiles

Have you left a comment on the profile about what you think is incorrect information, and why?

Answer 2

Marion is giving good advice. The group who examines pre-1500 certification requests will essentially look at your work on WikiTree. Posting pertinent new information on pre-1500 profiles, using the comments section, is not only helpful to the community, it also provides examples of your research and would certainly boost your case when you decide to apply for the pre-1500 badge again.

Another thing that is looked at is your knowledge and use of WikiTree's Styles and Standards.

You may find this thread interesting: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/529958/how-to-make-sure-you-get-pre-1500-certified

Comments

Good points Isabelle about being familiar with WikiTree's Styles and Standards.

Just because you're a pilot at United for 35 years doesn't mean you show up at British Airways and start flying on day 1.  You will still have to go back to training because there are different practices from one organization to another.  Will the process be faster than someone who doesn't even have a pilot's license?  Surely.  But you still have to check the boxes.  

This would be the same if you're a nurse, a policeman, a bus driver, or a lawyer.  Change states, countries, law firms, you're going to go back to some sort of certification or review for approval.

Answer 3

Please don't feel insulted, it is only a matter of working through the appropriate steps, as irritating as that may seem. Bear in mind there are thousands of people who use Wikitree with a very broad range of skills, some of whom need to learn some rudamentary computer abilities, others how to source their work properly. Often people will lack a flair for gentle communication (raising my hand!). But the "testing" helps the community in avoiding problems with members who have not yet shown they are able to do high-quality work. The system evolved over time to solve a problem with early-date profiles that lacked any sources and valid proofs. So even with your amazing background, you'll need to follow through with a small demonstration of your skills, which should be very easy for you. As frustrating as it may seem, please do so as we will all benefit greatly from your expertise and you'll make a wonderful resource for our community.

Comments

Very well said, Bobbie!

Answer 4

WikiTree's obsession with courtesy doesn't cover adding insult to injury then.

Comments

I agree, RJ. I don't know why your answer was downvoted. We do need to watch our words and tone in these forums because we can't hear tone. An off-the-cuff remark can sound insulting although it was not intended that way.  Hopefully,  someone with Gregory's credentials will overlook an unintentional slight and continue pursuing not only pre-1500 certification, but WikiTree involvement.  We need more people with his skill set and knowledge,

---

Counteracting upvote cast, but searching in vain for anyone injured.

---

Thanks , Herbert. Sometimes, as you know, people don't tell us when we have injured them. They just go away.

---

RJ --

As you know, getting a pre-1500 badge involves more than understanding how to research the genealogy. That's important, but people also need to know how to work within the WikiTree environment which includes knowing how to cite sources, how to work collaboratively on project-managed profiles, how to use G2G, how to find duplicates and avoid creating more of them, etc., etc. These skills must be demonstrated within the community.

Your post was not helpful. So I am one of those who downvoted it.

---

Sometimes, how we feel about how we are treated or how others are treated affects our motivation,  I think being able to express ourselves is important,  A down vote is not very uplifting and doesn't it affect the score of the person who left the down vote?

---

Julie, I think RJ was encouraging courtesy, not belittling it. I think his answer did not deserve a down vote. In my opinion his answer was a non-pointy way of pointing out that we should all be courteous in our comments.

---

Like Edie, I perceived that RJ was reacting to some uncourteous remarks in this thread.

Regardless of that, I hope Gregory takes heed of Julie's good advice. Pre-1500 certification requires a combination of demonstrated genealogical acumen and demonstrated skill at working within WikiTree's technical structure and policies/styles.

---

Since it was posted as an answer to the original question, it came off to me as saying that declining Gregory's application for pre-1500 certification was adding insult to injury. That's why I didn't find it to be helpful.

And, yes, Peggy. We lose points for downvotes. I'm not really concerned about that.

---

Ellen, was my answer uncourteous ? If so, I am sorry, it was really unintentional and should be chalked up to the langage barrier. I was really trying to help.

---

I'm not trying to answer for Ellen, but I do want to chime in and say, "No." Your answer was really informative, Isabelle! Thanks!

---

Isabelle had no role in the discourtesy. There was no way for RJ to insert his remark where it would be apparent what he was referring to.

---

Clearly, since nobody gets it, it's the English and Americans who have major cultural differences.

---

... insert his remark where it would be apparent what he was referring to.

While not a perfect fix, copying the text and adding bold & italics followed with your reply goes a long way in helping others to understand which comment you're referring to - especially in long threads.

---

copying the text and adding bold & italics followed with your reply goes a long way in helping others to understand which comment you're referring to - especially in long threads.

commented 17 minutes ago by SJ Baty

.

Or you could use the quote "function".  (It still requires a copy and paste, which I understand some cannot do on G2G.) 

---

Didn't know we had that! Thanks for the info .

---

It wouldn't always be a good idea to repeat an offending remark. In this instance, what would have been best would have been for RJ to send a private message suggesting that the other person edit or hide what they said...

---

Then, Ellen, following your reasoning, shouldn't you have private messaged RJ suggesting such?  And perhaps I should've PM'd you. Now I will end my ridiculousness. :)

---

I think RJ knows what he's doing...

Answer 5

I don't know why you have been refused pre-1500 certification - that is a question for others elsewhere. I hope you get the help you need to answer your questions and progress to this if possible.

However, the more pertinent issue for me is why is someone without the certification is a Profile Manager for a pre-1500 profile. This is a legacy issue because the profile was created before the present policy was brought in.

You can't do everything a Profile Manager is asked to do if you don't have the certification. Therefore I would encourage:

1. If you are a PM without certification, please consider removing yourself from that profile, particularly if the profile has multiple PMs.

2. Can the display be changed so certified PMs are highlighted as such on the profile (e.g. in a different colour?)

3. Can someone compile a list of pre-1500 profiles without any certified PMs so other pre 1500 editors can help with these?