sources cited at Famous Kin (re Oswald, Roosevelt) but putative son Thomas isn't connected

+1 vote
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Below, please find sources listed as evidence for Thomas Carter (ca. 1725-1774) being the one who married Mary Hepworth (ca. 1710-1774), and was the purported son of this Daniel Carter.

Can these be ruled out; if not, then what is lacking for attaching Thomas as Daniel's son? The discussion about a possible match on Thomas' will on his profile is not very compelling, because the data in that will does not match his family constellation.

Sources listed at "Famous Kin" include:
 

  1. Abstracts of Colonial Wills of the State of Georgia 1733-1777, Atlanta Town Committee of the National Society of Colonial Dames in the State of Georgia (1962), 27-28.
  2. Georgia Genealogical Magazine, October 1967, Vol 26, p. 1781.
  3. Miller, Joseph Lyon, The Descendants of Capt Thomas Carter of Barford, Lancaster County, Virginia, Richmond, Virginia: Whittet and Shepperson Printers. 1912, 210. 
  4. Roberts, Gary Boyd, The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants to the American Colonies or the United States, Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co. 2008, 267.
  5. Roberts, Gary Boyd, comp., Ancestors of American Presidents, Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society. 2009, 428.
     
WikiTree profile: Daniel Carter
asked ago in Genealogy Help by Fann Fann G2G6 Mach 2 (24.8k points)
edited ago by Fann Fann
Finding a DNA mismatch is no reason for people to just go breaking the line at any point they like.  You have to find out where the break is, by DNA, and it often won't be where you expect.

There are no "proven descendants" if we mean "proven biological descendants".

The Thomas Carter that was removed on the basis of a mismatch is not the Thomas Carter who married Mary Hepworth; so, I think the PMs were correct to disconnect the other Thomas. 

From all accepted lineages for Roosevelt, Thomas Carter who married Mary Hepworth should be attached, because he is a gateway ancestor; further, no mismatch on DNA should be in evidence for him.

RJ Horace I agree with you so I have reconnected Thomas to Daniel with notes explaining.  I belong to a Carter Y DNA project in Family Tree and I was told there that I should disconnect.  I have very strong circumstantial evidence connecting Thomas to Daniel.  It may be true that the DNA does not match but that still does not prove that they were not family.
Hi John,

If you read the remainder of the comments here, more than one Thomas is in play. The other Thomas who married Mary Hepworth has been demonstrated at Famous Kin to be the son of Daniel.

We're still vetting whether the correct will was being described on his profile.

The Thomas that you have connected is not connected to Theodore Roosevelt, who is described in Daniel's profile: the daughter of Thomas Carter and Mary Hepworth, Ann / Anne Carter (1744-1809) is the gateway ancestor for Theodore Roosevelt and Oswald.

In summary, I think the reason the DNA doesn't match for the Thomas that you reconnected is because he is the wrong Thomas.

Once again, the sources supplied by Famous Kin are still being vetted. So it is premature to connect the other Thomas Carter, and his lineage does not fit with that described by sources.

Thanks.

1 Answer

0 votes
There are two different Thomas Carters born in 1725  Carter-5679 is my ancestor.  1725-1787.  The other is Carter-5586 (1725-1774).  5586 married a Hepworth and based on his will he is not the son of Daniel 1700-1759.  His will list his Mother and she is different than Daniel's wife.

Carter-5679 has potential DNA problems.  Two of his son's lines tested E -M2 YDNA.  Daniel's Father's lines have tested RM-269.

John Richburg.  Richburg-78
answered ago by John Richburg G2G1 (1.6k points)
How do you know that it is "his will?" The very fact that the mother doesn't match suggests that it is not. Where is a virtual copy of this will? We cannot evaluate nor deny the lineage without having a copy, because the above-described references supposedly point to Thomas being the son of this Daniel.

I did not find the Miller reference to be dispositive, but perhaps I overlooked something. I am not that familiar with the line, but from all appearances, the sources should be able to be vetted.
Search for his will and read it for yourself.. The children listed in his will match his children so I expect the Mother is listed correctly.
vault.georgia archives Colonial wills Thomas Carter

I see a will that is not transcribed at Wills, Colony of Georgia, RG 49-1-2, Georgia Archives for Carter, Thomas (1774-03-17). I don't read cursive well, but from an initial glance, this Thomas' wife's name is Mary. At the time of the writing of the will (8 Mar 1774), he resided at St John, Georgia. (A St John Parish does exist in Liberty County.) If this is the correct Thomas, he should be categorized as a slave owner of St John, Georgia. From a review of the listed children, this is his will, but I see no mention in it of his mother as being Mary Lewis, as is discussed on Thomas' profile.

Meanwhile, since the claim on Thomas' profile is that he is the 3rd Great-grandfather of Theodore Roosevelt, then the parents that are also in that line should be attached. Nothing is barring that. I am presenting the question here because it doesn't make sense that the Thomas who was wife of Mary should not be aligned on WikiTree.

At present, I see nothing about this will that rules him out as the son of Daniel Carter and Elizabeth Pannill and the husband of Mary. I also see a couple of points about his profile that stand correcting.

Noting also that 1) Thomas is described as a son on Daniel's profile on WikiTree, and that 2) Daniel's son Thomas Carter (d. 8 Mar 1774 in Newport, Liberty, GA), who married "Mary," has listed as his parents Daniel Carter (ca. 1700 - bef. 16 Nov 1759) and Elizabeth Pannill who have this complementary reference list at Famous Kin:

  1.  Miller, Joseph Lyon, The Descendants of Capt. Thomas Carter of Barford, Lancaster County, Virginia, Richmond, Virginia: Whittet and Shepperson Printers (1912), 105, 209-211, Heritage Quest (Digital Library).
  2.  Roberts, Gary Boyd, The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants to the American Colonies or the United States, Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co. (2008), 267.
  3.  Roberts, Gary Boyd, comp., Ancestors of American Presidents, Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society (2009), 428.
  4.  Miller, Lyon & Tyler, Lyon G., ed., Carter Genealogy in William and Mary College Quarterly Historical Magazine, Vol. 18, Richmond, VA: Whittet & Shepperson (1910), Jul 1909, No. 1, Page 54.
  5.  Warner, Charles Willard Hoskins, Hoskins of Virginia and Related Families: Hundley, Ware, Roy, Garnett, Waring, Bird, Buckner, Dunbar, Trible . . ., Tappahannock, Virginia: unknown (1971), 415-416, Heritage Quest (Digital Library).

The W&M citation (# 4 in this comment list)  is partially confirmatory on the parents. I say partially, because little identifying information on son Thomas is given, other than he removed to Culpeper.:

16. Daniel Carter (Thomas,2 Thomas1) appears first in the Lancaster records 17 May 1725 as the attorney of Robert Biscoe. He was married and had children when his father made his will in 1728 as his portion of the estate was left to him without mention of reversion to his brothers in case of failure to have issue, which mention was made regarding each of the unmarried sons of Thomas Carter.

16 Nov 1759, the appraisement of the personal estate of Daniel Carter Sr was returned to court by his widow Elizabeth. It amount to #343.2.4 and included Negroes (sic), books, a sword, and the usual furniture. It was divided among (the following children and grandchildren):

74. Thomas, removed to Culpeper

The citation can be checked to confirm Thomas siblings - at a quick glance, at least the females are in alignment. Some of his siblings have their progeny reported. . .

As I read the will it listed Thomas's Mother as Mary Lewis.
Which suggests that that St John, GA will is probably not the will of Thomas, husband of Mary and son of Daniel.

Famous Kin says his will can be found at:

Abstracts of Colonial Wills of the State of Georgia 1733-1777, Atlanta Town Committee of the National Society of Colonial Dames in the State of Georgia (1962), 27-28.

We should check that.

Backup citation (as described in Famous Kin) [Atlanta]̉ Published by the Atlanta Town Committee of the National Society Colonial Dames of America in the State of Georgia for the Dept. of Archives and History in the Office of Secretary of State, State of Georgia: Abstracts of Colonial Wills of the State of Georgia, 1733-1777. National Society Colonial Dames of America in the State of Georgia; Georgia. Department of Archives and History.

This is also available through interlibrary loan from Alderman of the UVA Libraries. I'll might see about getting it, but to answer the fundamental questions of his wife and descendants, the version on the Georgia archive is sufficient for those purposes.

Please take a screen shot and show a mention of his mother. I have re-read what I can make out, and I see no mention of his mother on the main two pages of the document.

His will mentions his wife as Mary Carter.

Son:

1. Hepworth (significant indication that they named a son using the wife's maiden name)

2. James 

3. Charles Thomas

Daughters:

1. Anne Oswald (very significant match on the family constellation - this does appear to be the correct will, after all)

2. Katherine Mutteair (sp?)

Please allow me to list my circumstantial evidence that I used to connect my Thomas to Daniel.

1.  The line as I have it is Daniel, Thomas, Robert William and William.  All GGG Grandfathers of mine.  William prior to his death and with the help of his grandson prepared a written record of family history.

2.  Miller states that Thomas was born in 1725.  Our family history as written by William says that our Thomas was born in 1725.

3.  Miller states that Thomas son of Daniel moved from VA to the Carolinas.  Our family history says that Thomas moved from VA to the Carolinas.

4.  Miller says that Thomas had a large family.  Our records list the names of our Thomas's 9 children.

5.  William had 3 sons.  The oldest was named Daniel.  The second was named Thomas.  The third was named Robert.  All 3 sons named in order corresponding to the names of his male line with oldest to youngest.

Again I know this is just circumstantial evidence and not solid proof.

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