What do I make of connections to the Magna Carta surety barons that don't go through any of the Gateway ancestors?

+8 votes
776 views
I seem to be descended from all the Barons in the Magna Carta sureties list, 6 with no flagged uncertainties. None of them go through anyone I can find on the Gateways list. Of those that have no flagged uncertainties, 5 go through my Vivion line with https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vivion-9 as the apparent immigrant connection. The 6th comes through my Brookshire line with https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Sparks-405 being the apparent immigrant connection.

Can this be verified? What are my options?
in The Tree House by Anna Robinson G2G6 (9.8k points)
I would really be surprised if there are any people of Anglo descent who aren't descended from at least one.
Are you saying a new line?

Im showing a connection at 30 generations to him.

He held office of sheriff. So he maybe.

8 Answers

+8 votes
I found one thing, though not flagged there is a note that Thomas Vivion (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vivion-9) is likely not the son of Hanibal Vivion (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Vivian-164), so that takes care of those 5 (and many of the others flagged uncertain many generations back that go through that Thomas Vivion).
by Anna Robinson G2G6 (9.8k points)
There is a baptismal record showing that Hannibal Vivian had a son named Thomas who was baptized in 1628, but the Heinemann article about the Vivions of Virginia indicates that Thomas's first born son was born about 1620, which, if true, means he couldn't have been the Thomas baptized in 1628. See http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~bianco/Resources/vivion.html
Heinemann's 1st generation is all nonsense really.  The Joel who's in a land grant in 1638 isn't likely to be the brother of the John whose 1st child in born in 1681.  But Heinemann admits he hasn't any sources for that generation.
Based on notes in "son" John's profile, there appears to be a lack of evidence that Thomas was his father or perhaps even for Thomas's existence.
+8 votes
If birth and death places are provided, you can find in your lines who which ancestors supposedly immigrated, i.e., are the gateway ancestors.  Even without places, the dates should narrow it down to a few people.  

For each of those people, there are at least two possibilities -- he/she has a profile that duplicates a known gateway ancestor, or he/she is a supposedly new gateway ancestor.  In the former case, it is a nice service to identify the two duplicate profiles and suggest a merge, or at least post on each profile if there are discrepancies.  In the latter case, I'd start trying to research the profiles of these people.  Very likely their parents or grandparents are not well-sourced and a case could be made for detachment.
by Barry Smith G2G6 Pilot (291k points)
+8 votes
Generally, without speaking about that specific case, it's possible as new gateway ancestors are being discovered and proven from time to time but it would need extensive research and consultation with an expert in the region concerned.
by Dina Grozev G2G6 Pilot (197k points)
+10 votes
There are definitely some legit gateway ancestors who are not on the list yet. But there are a lot more people who appear to be gateway ancestors because of bad genealogy. If someone is not on the list, you would want to confirm the person's ancestry, using reliable sources, back to an ancestor who has already been confirmed to descend from a Magna Carta baron.
by Chase Ashley G2G6 Pilot (312k points)
+7 votes

The short answer is yes.  There have been a few (very few) new Gateway Ancestors found and established by reliable evidence.  But, having relationship finder return a trail from you to one of the 17 surety barons (those known to have descendants beyond the 4th generation) is one thing.  Proving that trail is another.  Although it may be possible to do so it can be quite challenging to accomplish.  To prove a unverified trail means that each parent-child relationship between you and the surety baron must be "proved"  or established by reliable (primary) evidence. There are often more than 20 generations that require support by acceptable sources.  That is why it would be your good fortune to have a relationship trail that passes through a known "Gateway Ancestor"  (documented in Richardson's "Magna Carta Ancestry" and on the project approved list of the 240 or so known Gateway Ancestors).  Proving a unknown, or "Questionable Gateway Ancestor" is time consuming and difficult because in most cases an error has occurred in the lineage documented or the necessary evidence is difficult to obtain or nay not exist.  This is not to discourage your efforts however as new lineages are occasionally (though not often) established.  That is not usually done without a great deal of work and perseverance.

Good luck on your research.  Feel free to contact me if you would be interested in membership in the Magna Carta Project.

David Douglass, Co-Leader, Magna Carta Project

by David Douglass G2G6 Pilot (126k points)
I think that one small issue with the "Gateway Ancestors" definition is that I'm sure there are those of us from Australia or New Zealand or other English colonies away from the Americas who are descended from the barons, but wouldn't be considered a new "trail" because they wouldn't be considered as "Gateway Ancestors" because the "Gateway Ancestors" are classified as American colonists.

All WikiTree members are welcome to become members of the Magna Carta Project.  You do not have to have Magna Carta ancestry or be related to a "Gateway Ancestor".  In fact, Liz and I realized that there are those whose primary interest is in tracing their own personal connection to a surety baron.  That is why we created the "Affiliate" membership that allows those with an interest in Magna Carta genealogy to participate at their own pace and without meeting the requirements expected of "Badged" members.  Badged members have participation requirements and concentrate solely on the trails extending from "Gateway Ancestor" to surety baron.  There is no requirement that a member has to be descendant of a Magna Carta baron or even have a Gateway Ancestor.  One of the Magna Carta Project Coordinators is a Brit residing in England.  He has Magna Carta lineage that does not include a colonial Gateway Ancestor.

For Magna Carta purposes a "Gateway Ancestor" is an early colonial immigrant (There are 240 or so gateway Ancestors documented in Douglas Richardson's, "Magna Carta Ancestry") that has a project approved direct, lineal (parent-child) relationship that extends to one or more surety barons. In the broader, usual sense a Gateway Ancestor is an early colonial immigrant with direct noble or royal ancestry,

Also See :https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/738701/have-magna-carta-ancestry-come-join-the-magna-carta-project

In agreement  with Amy Utting, If you are a descendant of the magna carta barons and are not American you probably have zero interest in the magna carts group because you feel you are excluded, it seems to be set up just for Americans.

Hi David

My comments from various points of view

1) the growing number of fake relationships on all platforms is getting a bit annoying.  In geni, you have to do a lot of pinning - or ancestor up on one page and descendant down (actually it does provide some surprising additional results including multiple lines - but is a lot of work.)

2) this is a bit problematic.  if you resist the false claims, then some people think you are a poor genealogist because you can't "deliver the goods."

3) I'm not sure that we are all tapped out.  As an example,I have a Mauduit en passant for my family who lived in Maryland but some American records mistranscribed it as Manduit and have no realization of the import of it for MC or as a stellar Huguenot family.

4) In addition to 3) this profile upstream to John's wife is a total and complete mess https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Robinson-8621 .  As you can see this poor woman has a fake trip to America, married two fake husbands and died there - all well spending her entire life from birth to death in England and mothering a fairly famous member of the Mauduit family Peers. 

Not that I need this line but would like to develop it for others.  Any suggestions on what I can do about it.  What has happened here is the wrong Robinson and her parents has been attached to Wells and Ball by the original cf https://www.geni.com/people/Eleanor-Wells/6000000005965895602 - should I sever and bypass?

5) there is a new market brewing among colonial blacks and the south.  In what used to be Georgia (larger than the present state) a well documented large number of de Vere Hunts settled. 

Given that there are about 100 completely unique Hunt families (Y), there are many descendants in this area both black and white as you can imagine and it is one of the rare places that they actually predominate over other Hunts.  

This is one example of several floating about.  

6) as an asideIn my own family, with reference to 4) 5)a certain mullato child named Anthony in St. Kitts left 1000 lbs by my Mauduit

7) There are a number of Eastern European noble families who fled to the US (unlike many others who went to commonwealth countries) and as a result lost their noble designation and may not yet be aware of it. 

In my own family which began as v. Pfeilitzer genannt Franck - the Brits dropped the Franck leaving Pfeilitzer, the Americans had to drop the Pfeilitzer and became Frank and in other places some became v Franck

But I recognize a goodly number of other family names and with whom I have DNA matches albeit a bit back

Some thoughts 

The Magna Carta Project is open to all WikiTree members. As you have noted not every member will have an interest in the Project but this is not because we aim to be exclusive. The Magna Carta Project, like every other project in WikiTree is a speciak interest group.  For example, we have a project for those interested in their Irish ancestry.  If your focus is on your German roots you may not have an interest in the Irish project.  Both projects are equally valid. Your issue is like complaining that members of a project devoted to Harley Davidson motercycles don't cater to Yamaha dirt bike fans.  The Magna Carta Project does not exclude anyone but it is true that it will not be of interest to everyone.  Clearly, that can also be said of every other Project found in WikiTree.  Not everyone will be interested in the Magna Carta Project but we welcome all who are interested.  We even have two levels of membership to appeal to as many members as possible.possible.

Thanks for your comment.
Thanks David

I guess that my other point is that the term gateway ancestor is a bit of a new one for me.  On my father's father's side, I am first generation born North American.  

For example, I have Anne Lloyd Yale Eaton - but part of a much larger network completely Irish going several other directions one fed by a double Maunsell so its en passant. Equally, the Mauduits have about 7 or more MCs up their  line of which I am en passant a Marylander.

However, Ireland seems replete with those who have the whole set

The black issue I think is important - as I would not be surprised to find that there are thousands if not hundreds of thousands with some and a few with the entire set.  

 I see that just mushrooming in my own generation to all races as families like mine take on an entire facelift if you will and travel from or to all over the world

Even Eastern European nobility has some access to the MCA through Scots up their line - doesn't apply to me as I have a Scot void

As a PS, I have Richard More up his mother's side replete with many matches, Theories of Relativity and auto-clusters pointing to several upstream heading his way (a Nova Scotia reality - as I think he has more descendants here than in the US)

Of course Richardson doesnt do much for Brit side - but I do compare intersection points where valid
Lloyd

My response to your comments may be a bit lenghty and require some research on my part.  I wii respond by private message when I have had the chance to digest everything.  In the meanwhike one of our project't research experts may also want to respond as well.

Thanks for your posts !
Hi David

Take your time - I was just introducing a new perspective
Lloyd I think American work on Magna Carta trails to colonial gateways is helpful to other people with British ancestry, because we share an interest in the same people over a period of at least 3 centuries. Richardson and our Magna Carta team and others might also sometimes make mistakes or not be aware of a new bit of information, but they've been very good in building up a relatively accessible and generally accurate body of information for those centuries which goes beyond the people covered by Complete Peerage.

I think what anonymous was trying to say, David, as I was, is the fact that the Magna Carta Project is predominantly focused on proving trails from Gateway Ancestors is somewhat exclusionary, as there are plenty of people who are descended from the barons in places such as Australia and New Zealand who would technically have "Gateway Ancestors", but as they wouldn't have been American they wouldn't have been recognised by Richardson and would likely have occured much later as Australia and New Zealand are far younger countries colonialism-wise than America.

The MC Project is aimed predominantly at Americans, because the whole purpose is proving and correcting the trails to Gateway Ancestors which can only be colonial immigrants to America. I have a huge amount of interest in the Plantagenets and the Magna Carta, and its barons, however I have no interest in joining the project strictly because its focus would be on either Americans or the ancestors of Americans, and I have no American ancestors whatsoever.

Amy, a more logical complaint would be to say that the Gateway ancestors should be called America-Gateway ancestors or something like that. But of course when Americans started working on this they picked a term which made sense to them. The term does not make as much sense for people whose families never emigrated or who emigrated in a much more massive scale more recently, when records were better. Americans have "gateway ancestors" during a long period with few records.

I guess some will complain about the name, but I don't see any other disadvantage to us non Americans from this type of research. I do see many advantages. You have to remember that knowledge is not like a piece of cake which has a fixed size that we have to grab a share of in competition with others.

Knowledge actually grows the more we grab at it, and the more we give to other people. American Magna Carta research gets lots of attention because there are a lot of Americans. For the generations we all work on together this is very helpful to others.
Exactly Amy, I got very excited when soon after I joined wikitree, and found out that  I  had a paper trail  (I will admit shaky in parts) back to many MC barons and heard about the gateway project, I soon found out that the project was useless to me, because my particular  MC baron descendants did not go to colonial  USA (if that is the right term)  and my last ancestor that Richardson mentions is back in the 1400's. I have enough to do finding better sources for my own non American MC baron descendants than to take on branches that at best are going to be 10th cousins etc.  So zero interest in the gateway project.
Amy

First of all, the Magna Carta Project was founded from the very beginning in order to document the trails from Gateway Ancestors to their surety baron ancestor.  That is the stated purpose of the project.  I understand that not everyone is going to be interested in that goal.  Are you telling me that the project should appeal to everyone and there is something wrong if it doesn't ?  You are a project Leader yes ?  What project do you lead ?  Does it appeal to everyone ?  Probably not.  Each project has it's own focus. The Magna Carta Project's focus is to work with the direct lineages from Gateway Ancestors to a surety baron.  Yes, it's going to primarily be of interest to Americans.  But it is also true that every single project in WikiTree has a group of interested participants with a special interest.  The French Project is probably not going to appeal to someone interested in Scottish Clans.  Is the French Project guilly of being exclusive ?

The Magna Carta Project's only membership requirements are to be Pre-1700 certified, a WikiTree member for 90 days, and to hopefully have an interest in helping with the project.  There are American members of the project that do not have a Gateway Ancestor.  One of our two Project Coordinators is a Brit with no connection to a Gateway Ancestor.  He is a great coordinator and enjoys his Magna Carta work.

Let me try to put this another way.  If you are the Project Leader of the Scandinavian group whose focus is on Scandinavian ancestry would I have a legitimate argument that I was being excluded from your group because you don't also focus on Scottish ancestry ?  I would think that I would probably be laughed off WikiTree for even suggesting that.  

The Magna Carta Project does not exclude any member from joining.  In fact, as I mentioned in my earlier post, Liz and I created a 2nd membership level to allow those that may not have an interest in documenting trails from Gateway Ancestors to surety barons to participate in documenting their own connections.  The Magna Carta Project was created for a specific, stated purpose just as every other project in WikiTree.  But for some reason this question about Gateway Ancestors not appealing to non-Americans continues to come up in discussions.  All I can say is that we do not exclude anyone from participating in what we do as a project.  Since that is what every project does why are we being questioned in such a manner ?  We have complaints because we refer to a particular source as being a foundational source,  Now it seems we're exclusive because of our project's focus ?  We are aware that not everyone is going to share the same interest.  The same is true of every project in WikiTree.

Thanks for your comments but please consider what it is you are saying.  Where I can agree with you is that not everyone will be interested in what the Magna Carta Project does and that the same is true for every WikiTree Project.  There are projects in WikiTree that I am not a member of because they don't fit my interest.  That is to be expected. There is nothing wrong with that.  Projects are designed to appeal to a special interest and they will have their own focus.  

If you do have an interest in what the Magna Carta Project does please join our efforts.  You do not have to be a Gateway Ancestor descendant or even have royal lineage.  If someone without a connection to a Gateway Ancestor (there are many Americans included who do not have a Gateway Ancestor) has an interest in exploring the connections to a surety baron please join us.  We have a membership level that is designed for you !  We will be happy to have you join us.

Best regards,

David Douglass, Project Leader

So were do I fit in on the "American" side.

My father's mother's Nova Scotian parents descended from the Mayflower Richards:  He, Warren, she More, which is the more pertinent here. They originated from the planters and early loyalists from New England and somehow based on what I have seen, More descenants are pretty thick here.

I have just moved to the area (my 7th province) and perhaps home as my descendants are here now with the forces).  I just joined the Nova Scotia genealogical society and documentation despite the Halifax harbour incident is plenteous 

Bottom line is that I have several autoclusters based on several ancestors feeding upward to Susanna https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Dutch-83  and perhaps beyond because (with apologies to Blaine B) are very sticky - just needing the time to sort through and assign them.  In the end there may be hundreds of them at My Heritage on both sides of the border in terms of matches to my dad.  


Based on the numbers that I have seen, I would believe in the end just based on my matches, that just I have close to the number who claim it.  Of course Lady Di is a throw in lol.  

When we get to this level of matches then I suppose we may need to find a better way to document them here.

But its a two for one with a lot of the work already done 

I will comment on the rest below.  

+6 votes

Heinemann's Vivion article was published 80 years ago.  He doesn't try to connect with the Vivian pedigrees in Vivian's so-called Visitation books, but that would take people about 5 minutes.

So then it's just a case of finding the evidence for the connection, and people have had 80 years to worry away at it.

This is very typical.  New gateways don't pop up from nowhere - they've been around a long time, waiting for a breakthrough.  And in the meantime they've been posted all over the internet without waiting for the evidence.

But the breakthrough will usually come from an unpublished document.  It's not likely to be on Google already.

In the meantime, if the Vivion line were disconnected, the Relationship Finder would find some more interesting alternatives.

Your Geoffrey de Say line goes through George Stone.  We show him as the cousin of Governor Stone of Maryland.  Looks like some work needs doing in this area.

And your Mowbray line goes through Martha Eltonhead.  She's a genuine gateway (though not by the line the RF shows).  The Vivion connection is traced here

https://books.google.com/books?id=-omPLYeCtsQC&pg=PA476

so this is looking promising.

by Living Horace G2G6 Pilot (632k points)
May I ask what is a 'gateway' ancestor

Thanks
Suzy, thanks for your question.  See my comment posted above in response to Amy's
Thanks I missed the Stone connection.
+5 votes
Thank you all for all the comments. I think someone on one of the other threads about the Barons and Gateway ancestors mentioned "mapping" to look for connections. How would you go about doing that?
by Anna Robinson G2G6 (9.8k points)
edited by Anna Robinson
+7 votes
So, instead of the current Magna Carta project (which was clearly defined as providing proven descents from a certain limited list of known descendants), it sounds as if you want to have a "searching for Magna Carta descendants" project that would link a broader category of descendants than Douglas Richardson originally defined.  A great idea!  Take it on!  

Just be aware of the amount of scholarship, energy, and knowledge it will take.  Richardson gave us a useable starting list, because of his astonishing work, but, unfortunately, it is restricted to emigrants to the British colonies in America.  Yes, more are needed, probably firstly those British people who descend directly but have not emigrated anywhere, or Australian/Canadian/British Empire descendants who are directly descended.  But that scholarship has not yet been done.  If you are equipped to do it, then we would all applaud the effort!  And would join in helping!  

But, not all of us have the chops (reading Middle English, deciphering Medieval English records, etc) to accomplish what Richardson has.
by Robin Anderson G2G6 Mach 4 (43.6k points)

Thanks Robin,  I do want to make the point that the Magna Carta Project already has a membership level for those that do not want to develop trails that begin with an immigrant Gateway Ancestor.That  participation level is our Affiliate Membership.  A member at that level of project participation can focus entirely on their own individual Magna Carta connections.  Colonial American ancestry is not required. "Badged" members on the other hand, are  assigned project trails to develop that extend from a Richardson recognized Gateway Ancestor (personal trails that include living descendants are not developed or reviewed by the project) to one or more surety barons. "Affiliates" are free to work at their own pace and on their own personal Magna Carta connections. The Badged and Affiliate level requirements are documented in our project membership pages and membership is open to any interested participant.  However, Robin, your suggestion of developing a project or sub-project that would allow members to concentrate solely on the possible relationship from themselves to a surety baron could be something that other members may have an interest in developing and leading.  

I could spend more time here talking about what the MC Project does and why but maybe I should mention what it does not do.  The project is made up of a small number (can be counted on one hand) of dedicated volunteer genealogists who work on the relationship trails between Richardson documented "Gateway Ancestors" and one or more surety barons. Because of limited staff and resources we can not research and develop  member's personal family trees. We are not equipped to take on these personal Magna Carta trails which can take months or even years to research and develop.  Due to these same limitations we also no longer develop the profiles of potential "Questionable Gateway Ancestors".  . Not that we wouldn't like to be able to but all we can do because of work load and limited resources is to provide assistance and guidance for members researching and developing Magna Carta profiles.  All project members do their own research and develop the profiles in the trails they are working on. That is why we recommend that prospective members have experience working with Pre-1700 profiles and reliable sources.  Pre-1500 experience is a plus but not required.

Thanks.

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