Is really De Vere an exception to EuroAristos' rules ? [closed]

+10 votes
638 views

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:European_Aristocrats#Disambiguation_of_LNABs

mentions:

"de Vere [The exception to the prefix rule, NOT Vere. This is a family whose surname has persisted through the centuries and we should not try to change it. Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Vere],"

I can provide tons of Wikipages on which EuroAristos are mentioned with the particle.

Moreover, no explanation is provided for this exception.

Finally, Wikipedia mentions that the name is derived from a town, Ver-sur-Mer.

So, unless a good rationale is provided, I will consider this exception as pointless.

closed with the note: This was resolved over 4 years ago.
in Policy and Style by Living Pictet G2G6 Mach 3 (33.0k points)
closed by Darlene Athey-Hill

8 Answers

+12 votes
 
Best answer
Most landowning medieval English families dropped the "de" prefix in the general period of the 15th century.  However, the De Vere family held on to the prefix in later centuries, right up to the end of the line.  In addition, Edward De Vere (d. 1604), the 17th Earl of Oxford, is famously and logically considered by many people to be the true author of all of Shakesepeare's plays: see http://www.deveresociety.co.uk/
by Living Schmeeckle G2G6 Pilot (105k points)
selected by Living Deering
Are they going to take the prefix off of Richard Attenborough too? If it's analyzed as part of the name, it should be part of the name.
+5 votes
Ver,De Vere ,Dever. It does go thru changes thru time.Originally People had no last

names,But as too many people had the same name,they would adopt a last name
based on where from,such as Ver France.Or what they did or whatever.I did some

research for a Dever friend of mine and thru a stroke of luck we got back to 800

in Ver,Manche France.It changed from Ver to De Vere When the family immigrated

to England.When the family immigrated to Usa the family split in several direction,

Each adopted a version of De Vere.And lastly the family became known as Dever,

Hope this makes sense too you.

Wayne R. Morgan 5487 Wiki Tree Volunteer researcher for Wiki Tree
by Wayne Morgan G2G Astronaut (1.1m points)
+2 votes

Jacques, I have no idea why someone decided at some point to consider de Vere to be an exception whereas it would be shown as 'de Vere' in LNAB.  With the naming standards for the EuroAristo project, we do not use the 'de' in the LNAB field.  Vere should not be an exception.

Darlene - Co-Leader, EuroAristo Project

by Darlene Athey-Hill G2G6 Pilot (539k points)
Darlene,  I'm not the one who added that notice, but I do agree with it.  I'm willing to try to understand why you think De Vere shouldn't be an exception, if you care to explain.  The way I see things, if "De" persisted as part of a surname into the 17th century, then it should be retained.  There are very few (and perhaps no) other English names like this, although there are a few like Daubeney and Devereux where the surname begins with a vowel, and the " D' " got fused to the name, but that's a bit different.

John, my reasoning for Vere as the LNAB as opposed to de Vere is the same as to why it was originally decided to leave prepositions out of the LNAB field.  (Which, by the way, was decided before I joined WikiTree, so I wasn't involved in the discussion or decision making process.)  I believe that decision was made to achieve consistency and attempt to avoid duplicates.  I think having de Vere as an accepted LNAB opens up a can of worms as to why other people shouldn't have a 'de' as part of their LNAB, when in fact it was part of it.  For consistency sake, I think the preposition should be left out of the LNAB and shown in the CLN field.

Darlene, do you deny that the De Vere surname is unique in keeping the prefix "De" past the middle ages and into the 17th century?  Regarding the "can of worms" issue, all the other aristocratic medieval English surnames eventually GOT RID OF the "De" prefix, but De Vere didn't.  It's different, so there's no can of worms to worry about.  I hope that you're open to the possibility that the original decision to make "De Vere" an exception was done for good reason.
I would have thought that a families name is whatever they chose. If the consensus among them was to retain the De, then that is part of the name. I personaly see no justification for any person outside of that family to arbitarily remove it, simply because they find it inconvienent.

How many of us today would be happy to have someone dictate how we spell our surnames ?

Just my personal opinion.

John, I always listen with an open mind. Why would I deny something?  frown  I contacted Kathy and asked her to 'pipe in' on the subject, since de Vere is one of the houses she manages.  She has responded below.  I don't have a problem with de Vere being an exception to the general rule.  As such, how's about you (or another volunteer) take on changing the close to 300 de Vere profiles that have 'Vere' as a LNAB and change them to 'de Vere' to bring them in compliance?  That would be a great help to the project.

Tim, a family's name is indeed what they choose/go by.  However, you must realize that with the EuroAristo project, we are dealing with a more complex issue.  The de Vere, you will note, is an exception to the naming guidelines.  Should you want to learn more about the EuroAristo guidelines, you can read this:    http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Name_Fields_for_European_Aristocrats

Agreed, Tim Perry.
+7 votes

Good Rationale was provided to you about ten days ago in both an email and a posting at the European Aristocrats project site. 

You can see at http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:European_Aristocrats this clarification: "The exception to the prefix rule, NOT Vere. This is a family whose surname has persisted through the centuries and we should not try to change it. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Vere."

John Schmeeckle's comment on June 6, 2014, is right on target.

 

by Katherine Patterson G2G6 (6.1k points)

The "good rationale" was exactly the two lines you mention again here.

I asked you to explain it to me, as the link does not provide much explanation beyond mentioning a few people called "de Vere". But I do not see much difference with other families, for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Beaumont  or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Clare.

John's rationale is problematic, IMHO:

  • It uses ex post logic (basing decisions about anscestors on what their descendants did). This could put us on thin ice, as descendants might have adopted diverging names.
  • I am not sure that it applies outside UK. My understanding of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobiliary_particle is that is far from being the general case.

John's mentions of Shakesepeare, in another post, adds little to the discussion.

Jacques, I am inclined to agree with your observation that the use of "de" varies by country.  And your post seems to suggest that wikitree should include "de" for medieval generations of families that later dropped the particle.  (I'm not sure if that's what you really meant.  My understanding is that there is a technical point related to wikitree searches that affects this question, but perhaps the system has been or could be changed.)

However, your examples of the Clare and Beaumont families don't seem to be relevant to the discussion at hand.  The Clare family died out in the medieval period, when the "de" prefix was in universal use, so it's not  good example of anything.  And the Beaumont family is a good example of a family that DROPPED the "de" in later centuries -- the opposite of the De Vere family. If you could provide an example of the use of "De Beaumont" in the 17th (or even the 16th) century, that will force me to reappraise my point of view.

Your dismissal of my reference to Edward De Vere (d. 1604), the 17th Earl of Oxford, shows that you missed my basic point.  I will reiterate for your consideration:

1. Aristocratic English families dropped "de" from in front of their family names as the medieval era gave way to the Renaissance, in the general period of the 15th century.

2.  A notable (and apparently unique) exception to this was the De Vere family.

3.  A famous example of this notable exception is Edward De Vere (d. 1604), the 17th Earl of Oxford.  His enduring fame is derived from the well-argued claim that he was the author of Shakespeare's plays.  In other words, this Renaissance man's family name continues to be known as "De Vere," not "Vere," so it makes sense for wikitree to follow this usage.

Hello All,

I have the answers to all of your questions regarding the De Vere family and how it "died out" of history. One daughter was not recorded on both sides of a family. They produced a daughter with a double XX inheritance pattern. I have family records and documents to prove it. Contact me. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=De_Vere&oldid=775308079

+4 votes
This is untrue. This family has over 300 profiles. http://scocal.stanford.edu/sites/scocal.stanford.edu/files/opinion-pdf/45Cal4th1140-1257879888.pdf

I guess I have to fight harder than most people do. Lucky life I live.
by Living Deering G2G3 (3.1k points)
+6 votes
I'm a de Vere descendant, and I must admit I feel exceptional often times.

How boring this life would all be without exceptions (i before e, except after c...)! So if one wants to escape exceptions, best to retreat to a different language other than English.

Either way, put some old time music on and with a drink in hand, all goes much better!

Best wishes!
by Russ Gunther G2G6 Pilot (104k points)
edited by Russ Gunther
Russ, if the best answer hadn’t been picked already, I’d have given you FIVE stars.
+4 votes
Looking for sources for De Vere or Vere? Richardson is using both De Vere, and Vere in one line.

Douglas Richardson in Royal Ancestry Vol. V. page 251 is using De Vere, starting with Robert De Vere, Knt., 3rd Earl of Oxford, born about 1164.

In this same line, Richardson, begins to use Vere, starting with Aubrey Vere, Knt., 10th Earl of Oxford, born about 1338-40.

Thank you!
by Bettye Carroll G2G6 Mach 5 (52.8k points)
+3 votes

It has always been and should always be de Vere (for there is nothing truer than a true spelling)

Noteable de Vere 

Dr Aubrey de Vere Bourke, father of President Mary Robinson
Anne de Vere Cole - wife of PM Neville Chamberlain
Horace de Vere Cole - the great prankster

Lord Sir Stephen de Vere, MP - poet and coffin ship buster
Aubrey Thomas de Vere (Hunt) poet
Aubrey de Vere poet

Governor John de Vere Loder, 2nd Baron Wakehurst

and even deVere crypto currency lol

by

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