Which squadron of the Australian Flying Corps WWI was Charles Kingsford Smith in?

Question

During World War One, Charles Kingsford Smith transferred to the Australian Flying Corp in 1916, before joining the Royal Flying Corps about 5 or 6 months later. The category https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Australian_Flying_Corps%2C_World_War_I on his profile is now generating a DBE as it is a top level category. Can anyone advise which Squadron he was in, or where I would find that information? Thanks so much!

Comments

KINGSFORD-SMITH Charles Edward : Service Number - 1017 : Place of Birth - Brisbane QLD : Place of Enlistment - Liverpool NSW : Next of Kin - (Father) KINGSFORD-SMITH N/A

Infantry 10/2/15

5' 6 1/2"

Transferred to 4th Signal Troop 21/3/15

Promoted corporal 9/3/16; promoted sergeant 29/7/16

Sgt on Command to RFC #3 school of military aeronautics 26/1/17

Discharged from AIF in consequence of being appointed a commission Royal Flying Corps 16/3/17

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I'm still reading the records .. .. ..

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I missed the transfer to Flying Corps 29/10/16

Transfer to 4th div. signal co (company, not corps)

https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/records/374051/8

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The page regards medals says nothing about squadron or anything other than RFC and RAF from 17.3.17 to 11.11.18

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Official notice of discharge from the AIF and why.

https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/records/374051/23

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He was 2nd Lt "A" Squadron RFS in May of (I presume) 1917.

(Too many duplicate pages and too many blank ones still needing to be check in case of small notes at the bottom of the page .. only on page 30 out of 60.)

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This page says 23rd Squadron, RFC, BEF, France

https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/records/374051/54

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Thanks so much everyone! Appreciate your help. The problem is that the 23rd squadron refers to the Royal Flying Corp, which he joined the following year. If Mark and John's suggestions are correct, that he didn't actually serve in a specific squadron of the AFC, then possibly I need advice from the Great War Project about how Kingsford Smith should be categorised, especially as he is noted on the main AFC category page as being someone who served in the AFC.

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It is probable that, because it was flying corps and part of the army, that he was still regarded as a Sergeant in the 4th Div Signal Company. He didn't (appear to) get a 2nd Lt-ship until the transfer to the English lot, and then there were the 2 squadrons mentioned.

You'd have to check the history of the AFC to see when they started having squadrons/separation from the army.

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Comment changed to Answer

Answer 1

His official record notes he was with the Australian Flying Corps 29 Oct 1916 to 15 Mar 1917, but no mention of a squadron. All the official paperwork for his discharge from AIF & transfer to the RFC has him as Sgt with 4th Divisional Signal Coy. I'm thinking his time with #3 School maybe means he wasn't with a specific squadron at that time.

Answer 2

His World War I Record from the National Archives see here https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=8334261 states that he was transferred to the Flying Corps 29 October 1916 but his discharge papers from the AIF to go the the Royal Flying Corps dated 16 March 1917 still say he is leaving the 4th Divisional Signal Corps.

There is a note in his record dated 26 January 1917 that he is at RFC (?) No 3 school of Mil Aeronautics Exeter College Oxford so perhaps he is training for the AFC but is appointed to the RFC and never actually served in an AFC squadron?

Answer 3

As I posted in my bank of replies -- This page says 23rd Squadron, RFC, BEF, France
https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/records/374051/54

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The above information (23rd Squadron) in on his profile, in the biography, under the World War 1 header.

Answer 4

Short answer, Melanie, is that he wasn't in an AFC squadron.  They hadn't yet been formed so he was transferred to the RFC to get him into the air.  Bert Hinkler also served with the RFC.  The AFC was still being set up in 1916 and early 1917, so a lot of the future pilots and ground crew were still listed under their previous postings.

Comments

Thanks Ken. So should I just delete the Australian Flying Corp WWI category from Kingsford Smith's profile, or should the category be amended so that it isn't a top level category?

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@ Kenneth .. yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying .. the only mentions of "squadron" of any kind were the two after he transferred over.  (My head was more with a 23-year old suicide from 80-plus years ago, so I didn't word things here well enough to be clear.)

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@ Gillian .. amend, amend!  The entity existed, just not as we think today.  The AFC began in 1912, with flight training a couple of years later, and he was a part of the AFC.

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The RAAF is coming up for an anniversary in a couple of years!

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Great- excellent work everyone. I’ll take it to the category google group if I don’t get a response here. Obviously not working to make the category top level if not everyone fits in a squadron.

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 - Gillian Thomas - As the AFC was part of the army, it should not be a top level, as people were still in it , but not in a 'squadron' as the 'war' was over, and they were still sorting things out. The use of 'dates' would better define the Cat.

A couple of Profiles to ponder = https://vwma.org.au/explore/people/174457 = and = https://vwma.org.au/explore/units/2676 = and VWMA list about 1700 profiles in its listings so far. - -cheers -

 - Talking about dates : He was in the (Aust) Flying (Corps) Oct 1916 - and was transferred to RFC in March 1917 - see = https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=8334261&s=8 =  - - -

 - He was there for 4, half months = https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=8334261&s=12 = - -

Answer 5

Duplicate Answer

Answer 6

Hello Gillian the following may be of interest/help

 

https://pickle.nine.com.au/2015/05/12/10/34/bondi-lifesavers

 

Aussie pioneer among first rescued by Bondi lifesavers

Bondi Surf Bathers' Life Saving Club was established in early 1907, when lifeguards rescued a young Sir Charles Kingsford Smith from the waves.

The Bondi club was established on February 21, 1907, in response to a spate of drownings. On January 2, just prior to the club's formation, lifesavers rescued a young boy named Charlie Smith — who went on to become the famous Australian aviator Sir Charles Kingsford Smith.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Australian_Airways

 

West Australian Airways was an Australian airline based in Geraldton, Western Australia. Established on 5 December 1921 as Western Australian Airways by World War I pilot Norman Brearley,

it was the first airline in Australian history to establish a scheduled air service. (Before QANTAS)

Sir Charles Kingsford Smith was one of its first pilots

 

If you go to www.naa.gov.au then open “Explore the Collection” then “Go to Record Search” then in Keywords enter “Charles Kingsford Smith” then when the details come up click on column headed “Digitised Item”

Then click on the Manuscript like symbol and read the information at your leisure

 

 

 

Cheers Ross Geissmann (Queensland, Australia)

Answer 7

 - He was in = 30 Aug 1917: Wounded Royal Flying Corps, Lieutenant, SN Commissioned Officer, Royal Flying Corps, AFC / RFC operations Western Front / Middle East, No. 63 Squadron RFC = - - Therefore there should be a "No. 63 Squadron RFC" under "Category: Royal Flying Corps" - - = https://vwma.org.au/explore/people/176109 =

 - Also read through wikiP = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Flying_Corps#Organisation = on how some numbers were used - -

Comments

This overall discussion is an interesting read.  Although not my primary focus his name immediately caught my attention.  The article refered to above also names Sir Charles Kingsford Smith as well (1 sentence).

Learned something new that I was unaware ie The Austrailian Flying Corps