Where is the PROOF that this is not true or made up. Who did the research?

+1 vote
660 views
WikiTree profile: Amatoya Moytoy
in Genealogy Help by
retagged by Ellen Smith

7 Answers

+11 votes
 
Best answer

I did most of the research for the Wikitree profile.

The ‘Am-a-do-ya Moytoy’ tree on the Internet usually starts with a man named Amadoya Moytoy, born in 1647.  He is listed with a wife and five children. Looks good, except here’s the catch:  Plain and simple, there is no mention in any record of a Cherokee person named or called, “Moytoy” or anything similar, until 1729. There aren’t many early records which mention any Cherokee by name, and ‘Moytoy’ doesn’t exist in the ones that do. Not in the account of Needham and Arthur (1674), the first Englishmen to travel to the Cherokee Nation and return to tell about it. Not in the 1684 Treaty with Virginia.  Not in the Colonial Records of South Carolina, 1710-1718.  Not in the journals of trade commissioner George Chicken’s travels among the Cherokee (1715-16 and 1725).  Not in the records associated with the Cherokee treaty and trade agreement with South Carolina of 1721 (which resulted in the naming of a chief named Wrosetasataw as ‘Emperor’ of the Cherokee).  Not in the journal of John Herbert (1727-28), South Carolina Commissioner for Indian Affairs.  Not in the early correspondence of Ludovic Grant, who settled among the Cherokee about 1727. He is not mentioned anywhere because he did not exist.


 You may want to read the full article here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/19KPro1EKZm965dKjT2Eiv6_74CTcZFh12GrDYvTvzkM

by Kathie Forbes G2G6 Pilot (378k points)
selected by Gaile Connolly
Huge thanks for this research Kathie Forbes. I hit upon a vein or branch in my tree that includes Cherokee and the parents were popping up way too easily. So I popped on over to the wikitree (overuse of the word pop) knowing if I searched various member of this colossal discovery, I would get to true references. I am getting so I spot false things when I look at the things added to their name!! I am so happy to hear that when this happens it is locked up and monitored.Once again thank you
+9 votes

See G2G: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/482219/amatoya-moytoy-profile-american-project-protection-monitoring?show=482219#q482219

You can check Changes to see who added the statement that an exhaustive search did not find any evidence of existence. If no one offers reliable evidence of existence and, after an exhaustive search, no reliable evidence that the person existed is found, that is sufficient proof. The burden is then on anyone who thinks they existed to come up with reliable evidence that they did.

by Chase Ashley G2G6 Pilot (220k points)
+6 votes
As Chase has pointed out, sources to PROVE he existed are what is required. After all, how can anyone prove he didn’t exist, unless the original perpetrator was alive and retracted his statements?
by Marion Poole G2G Astronaut (1.2m points)
+9 votes

I'll second what Chase said, and add that the burden of proof always falls on the person asserting that someone existed.  WikiTree asks us to make a positive statements (So Andso was born on this date, in this place, Thus Andso was his son, etc), and the Honor Code requires that we provide sources to support that information. 

WikiTree does not require us to prove negatives (So Andso did not exist), mainly because it's impossible.  Failing to prove a person did not exist does not prove that he or she did exist.  See this thread.

by Herbert Tardy G2G6 Pilot (639k points)
edited by Herbert Tardy
+1 vote
I agree with Chase. We need to find sources that show he did exist.

It would be impossible to positively prove that someone did not exist.

I checked a FAG that was out there for him, and it has been removed. But I guess that doesn't prove anything either.
by Cheryl Hess G2G Astronaut (1.6m points)
+3 votes
Moytoy isn't a name. It's kind of a title or honorific.  A shaman , a man who talks to the wind and rain. Closest easy translation , the rainmaker. There have always been moytoys among the Cherokee for thousands of years
by Eddie King G2G6 Pilot (599k points)
+2 votes

 original form of the name was "Ama Matai" (pronounced Ama-Madey in Cherokee). Ama is the Tsalagi word for water and Matai (Mah-Tey) is a French word meaning "to master." The title, Ama Matai (water master/water conqueror) became the names Amatoya and Moytoy. Amo-Adawehi was another Cherokee variant of the name, meaning "water conjuror" as was Amadoda (water traveler).

by Eddie King G2G6 Pilot (599k points)
This is another case of people trying  to reverse-engineer a name to match a story.  Records don’t support any name except “Moytoy”, which as Eddie points out was likely a title and not a personal name.  The English had a difficult time with Cherokee names so they made up English nicknames like “Little Carpenter” or “Old Hop,” but  “Amatoya” is just another version of “Moytoy,” perhaps closer to the Cherokee pronunciation of the word.

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