Who are the parents of Jean "the Great Captain" de Salazar-746?

Question

Tonight I left some public comments on this profile:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Salazar-746

Does anyone happen to have the answers handy, from past work on this Jean (Juan) de Salazar who made it big in France, and whose descendants include the Acadian de La Tour line; and/or the Salazars who made it big in Spain? I think they're related, and would love to nail this down.

Any Basque-aristo gurus here?

Or perhaps an Acadian project expert has been back through here before, via Marie Salazar and the de La Tours? I believe this "Jean" is her grandfather via his son Hector.

See also unsourced assertions here: 

https://somo.blogcindario.com/2008/06/00172-juan-de-salazar-de-muskiz-el-gran-capitan.html

Cheers,

Isaac in California

Comments

I updated this profile today with my proposed answer to this question. It's a long public comment on: 

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Salazar-746

This line probably goes back to a certain Garcia Lopez de Salazar who died about 1177; that's where this Juan's cousin "the historian" Lope Garcia de Salazar stopped in his book. He would have gone father if he believed the stories that his people go back to Vikings or Gascons or whatever. 

However, there's a non-zero chance our "Jean" Salazar does descend via a line of Lupo/Lupes to the Galindez and Iniguez kings of Pamplona in the 9th century, all the way from this guy "Arista" -- first king of independent Pamplona, (790-850?) who fought off both the Karlings, and the Emirate of Cordoba:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8D%C3%B1igo_Arista_of_Pamplona

Thoughts?

Is there a well-staffed project for these Spain families?

ps. Here's the historian Salazar (1399-1476) probably first cousin of this Juan via his uncle Ochoa (d.1439), in Spanish:

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lope_Garc%C3%ADa_de_Salazar

...and in French:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lope_Garc%C3%ADa_de_Salazar

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Also, as mentioned on the Jean Salazar public comment, in doing this research on the Salazars, I've discovered what I think is an over-simplification error of the connection between Marie de Salazar (who m. de La Tour, and thus a kind of mother of Canada). I now believe, but cannot prove, that her line goes like this:

1. Marie de Salazar who m. Claude de La Tour 

2. Hector de Salazar (b.1530), by Antoinette de Courcelles abt. 1540-1570. Son of: 

3. Christian de Salazar by NN. Son of: 

4. Hector de Salazar (1450 to >1502), by Helene du Beauvoir; who may be the same person as his "other" wife Helene de Chastellux (Châtelus, Chasellus), mother of Francois de Salazar of Chastellux. Son of: 

5. the "Jean" Juan de Salazar in question, who first impregnated then m. Marie de La Tremoille, bastard daughter of George, Grand Chamberain of France.

Until recently I didn't have Marie via Hector-Christian-Hector to Juan de Salazar... rather only Marie-Hector-Juan. 

Wikitree has her as the grandaughter of Francois, not Christian:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Salazar-750

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Louis Moreri, Le Grand dictionnaire... (Paris: 1759) vol 10, p 59, says Francois de Salazar, baron de St. Just, son of Hector I] [the third son of Jean le Grand Chevalier, married Marie de Saint-Simon, who was sister of Jeanne, espoused in 1526 to "Jacques, dit Hector de Salazar, son cousin germain." Francois I had issue: Francois II [who married Louise de la Croix], Antoine, Marie, dame du Plessis-Hermez.

The Jacques dit Hector de Salazar, seigneur de Marcilly, named here died at the battle of Pavia in 1525, and is son of Lancelot de Salazar [himself second son of Jean le Grand Chevalier]. This Jacques dit Hector had children: 1. Jeanne, married N. de Biencourt; 2. Claude de Salazar, dame de Marcilly, who married Jacques Deschamps in Feb 1535 and had 22 children; 3. Marie, a nun who ceded her rights to her sisters.

Moreri says the family comes from Biscaye, and that "quoi qu'il en foit, on trouve LOPEZ-GARCIA de Salazar, qui vivoit fort age l'an 1255 dans cette province, & fut l'auteur de toute cette maison....."

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Thanks Donald. 

Can you parse for me the "espoused" in this context? Does Moreri mean they married... or does that mean the subsequent phrase (relationship) is merely attested to?

For example in your first paragraph, am I correctly interpreting the Moreri quote to mean?

1) "Marie de Saint-Simon m. Jacques AKA Hector de Salazar" 

or 

2) "Francois de Salazar of St-Just (son of Hector, third son of Jean "the Great Captain") m. Marie de Saint-Simon (sister of Jeanne who coincidentally m. in 1526 Jacques AKA Hector, first cousin of Francois)" 

I think it's #2... but gotta ask. 

Then in the second paragraph, I think you're saying (or is it Moreri saying?) the Jacques-dit-Hector above, of Marcilly, was son of Lancelot de Salazar (thus grandson of "the Great Captain"). Is that correct?

FWIW in my notes I have the Jacques who died 1525 in Italy as the son of a different Lancelot. Not Lancelot the son of Jean himself; but that man's nephew Lancelot, the son of Jean's other son Galeas, by Claude d'Anglure. 

It is unclear to me which Lancelot married Louise de Courcillon. Do you know?

That question is probably important (and solvable) because the Jacques who d.1515 in Pavia m. Jeanne de Rouvroy-- another notable family!

BTW the NN de Biencourt who m. Jeanne is probably Florimond of Poutrincourt. Another notable!

Their son Jean de Biencourt was lord of Marsilly-sur-Seine in France, and governor of Port Royal in Acadie, where he founded the L'Ordre de Bon Temps. Arguably the first noble order in the new world... and now humorously any tourist to Nova Scotia can join on the ferry (or from home by merely promising to visit Nova Scotia someday). 

Laissez les Bons Temps rouler! 

Lastly, regarding your last paragraph: I appreciate the validation by Moreri of my (amateur but time consuming) proposed ascent for Jean "the Great Captain" to Lopez-Garcia de Salazar. There are multiple father-son links we may never be able to prove-- so many illegitimate children! And so many of the same names re-used, by fathers, sons and cousins all alive at the same time!  But for the purposes of researching my children's historical ancestors, I'm personally totally satisfied their Acadian de La Tours link back via this "Jean" Salazar to the Spanish Salazar line in Basque country. I defer to Spanish sources that distinguish them from being Basque, however.

Thanks in advance for your time reading, and replying.

Hope this Q&A is useful for other researchers over time.

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Hi, 

https://books.google.com/books?id=uB14WHoG8lgC&pg=RA2-PA59&lpg=RA2-PA59&dq=louis+moreri+hector+de+Salazar&source=bl&ots=oCgxrZkUIl&sig=ACfU3U0wJkJEqVjDlXvFj2BDXmltstdU7w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJsZPM_YrjAhUOZN8KHW46Ce0Q6AEwCnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=louis%20moreri%20hector%20de%20Salazar&f=false

I see the "il avoit épousé, par contract du premier mai 1520" to be "he married, by contract 1st May 1520." 

but then confusing even more is both Hector [sieur de St. Just] and Jaques dit Hector fought for Louis XII. 

I don't think Moreri mentions the Hector II who wed ntoinette de Courcelles either :( I'm inclined to think out of wedlock birth.....

Rene Jetté did some work on this in his book I have not seen.

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Helene de Beauvoir is the same with Helene de Chastellus, since Pere Anselme shows her famous grandfather, Marshall of France, Claude de Beauvoir, sire de Chastellus [or Chastellux]

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Today a WikiTree colleague messaged directly asking if anyone on G2G is interested in looking into the speculative Salazar origins I've proposed here: 

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Salazar-746

Via the early de La Tour lines, this affects most North Americans with New France / Acadian descents. 

Re-posting slightly-condensed summary here for G2G:

1. Sir Juan LOPEZ de SALAZAR y Escalante, of Montaño; called "el Gran Capitan" in Spain, and "le Grand Chevalier" when later lieutenant general of France; Lord of St-Just (now Saint-Just-Sauvage) in Champagne, also Issoudun, Chaudes-Aigues and a dozen other holdings. Lived 1410-1479. Served under Joan of Arc. (...) Son of:

2. Lope (surname poss. Ibáñez) de SALAZAR, of Montaño ie 'the Mountainous' b. 1380? Muskiz, Viscayo, Euskadi (ie Musques, Biscay, Spain) or whatever we want to label that part of Basque country as , given our placenames policy); by Juana GUTIERREZ de Escalante. Son of:

3. Juan-Sanchez (surname poss. Ibáñez, again) de SALAZAR y Zaimudo, by Maria Sanchez de ZAMUDIO y Leguizamón, of Susunaga who lived abt. 1335-1399, dau. of Fortun SANCHEZ de ZAMUDIO de Susunaga prob. by Maria DIAZ de Leguizamón. Juan-Sanchez is the son of:

4. Juan-López LOPEZ de SALAZAR, the eldest of the notional 117 bastards of (5), by some NN mistress; Juan-Lopez m. Ines de MUNATONES of Muñatones.

NOTE: this timeline is problematic-- if he's the eldest, according to some Spanish sources. It may not be problematic, if he's born later (...) [to] his nominal father:

5. Lope-Garcia IV "el Prestamero, the Lender" LOPEZ de SALAZAR of Nograro, Lord of Salazar-LaCerca-Nograro, Losa, Mena, and Ayala etc-- said to father 120 children, including 117 bastards -- of which (3) is notionally the eldest by NN mistress. Lope-Garcia IV was b. abt. 1248, d. 1344 of plague during siege of Algeciras, Cadiz, Andalusia. He was tremendously wealthy, both via huge inheritance, and controlling valuable trade routes (...) along "the Angle" in Basque country, which may explain why some French and Spanish sources include "de l'Angle" in the family name circa (1) Jean/Juan de Salazar of St-Just etc. Son of:

6. Lope-Garcia III "el de Las Estrellas" LOPEZ de SALAZAR, the posthumous son of (6); Lope-Garcia III killed a fearsome Moor in a duel and took his stars as the family arms of Salazar thereafter (...)

Lope-Garcia III was son of:

7. Lope-Garcia II "el Enamorado" LOPEZ de SALAZAR y Diaz de MENDOZA, abt. 1194-1213, who seduced and impregnated Mayor Martinez de La CERCA, the heiress and only legitimate daughter of her family-- for which her own bastard brothers killed her lover, before their son was born. This Lope-Garcia II had no contemporary nickname, but some sources refer to him as "the enamored" which is helpful for distinguishing him from his relatives. Son of:

8. Lope-Garcia I GARCES de SALAZAR y Rosales, by Maria Diaz de MENDOZA; son of:

9. Garcia LOPEZ de SALAZAR, by Ines ROSALES y Salazar (some kind of cousins TBD);

At this point, we should consider that the end of the line, on the Salazar side. This is what "Jean" Salazar's cousin, the famous historian Lope Garcia de Salazar, Lord of San Martin de Muñatones, Santelices, Sierra, and Salazar, historian and author said in his epic multi-volume history of the world 'Las Bienandanzas e Fortunas' which inspired among other things, Sharrer's book.

10a) Lope Garcia Gonzalez de Salazar, by Garcia Sanchez de Torres; OR

10b) Diego ORDONEZ y Diaz (Diez) de ROSALES, Lord of Rosales, by Ines GONZALEZ de SALAZAR

11) Gonzalo Garcia GARCES de SALAZAR, by an under-documented Urraca AZNAREZ de Aragon, who was perhaps born abt. 880, dau. of:

12) Aznar II GALINDEZ, Count of Aragón (r.867–893), by Oneca de PAMPLONA, dau. of:

13) García I (AKA Garica Íñiguez I) INIGUEZ, who lived from abt. 805 to 882, and reigned abt. 851/2 to 870 as King of Pamplona.

Answer 1

The profile set as father of Jean de Salazar was added as "Hector" by a contributor whose account has since been closed, and who provided no sources (and also added numerous incorrect/dubious parents and ancestors to many lines). 

The profile being completely unsourced, I changed the unsupported first name "Hector" to "Unknown" - we can at least be sure of that.

Note that a few generations down, it is still very unclear who exactly were the parents of Hector de Salazar who married Antoinette de Courcelles. As noted above, neither Moreri nor Anselme give any indication about this. Jetté apparently assumes that Hector was a descendant of "that" Salazar family, but not having seen his work, I can't tell why.