Enforce "Middle name not allowed when Dutch born"? [closed]

+18 votes
646 views

In november 2017 heb ik voorgesteld een "suggestion" in het leven te roepen om het gebruik van "Middle Name" af te keuren op profielen van in Nederland geboren personen. Conform de richtlijn van het Dutch Roots project:

Middle name: Deze wordt bij Nederlandse namen niet gebruikt.
Je kunt het veld Middle name uitzetten door in de Editmode "O no middle name" aan te vinken.

Aan het voorstel is nooit een goede opvolging gegeven. Nu bleek mij dat Aleš wel deze suggestie ontwikkeld heeft, zie regel 282 in deze tabel met momenteel ruim 44000 overtredingen.

Consensus is nodig om deze suggestie officieel te maken en de overtredingen op de Netherlands en Dutch Roots "Suggestions lists" te publiceren. Daarom vraag ik op onderstaand Ja of Nee antwoord te stemmen.


In November 2017 I proposed to create a "suggestion" to reject the use of "Middle Name" on profiles of people born in the Netherlands. In accordance with the guideline of the Dutch Roots project:

Middle name: This is not used with Dutch names.
You can disable the Middle name field by checking "O no middle name" in Edit mode.

Proper follow-up has never been given to the proposal. Now by chance I noticed that Aleš did develop this suggestion, see line 282 in this table with currently more than 44,000 violations.

Consensus is needed to make this suggestion official and to publish the violations on the Netherlands and Dutch Roots "Suggestions lists" . That is why I ask you to vote for the Yes or the No answer below.

closed with the note: Resulted in implementation of Suggestion #749
in Policy and Style by Jan Terink G2G6 Pilot (178k points)
closed by Jan Terink

Here is the report of suggestions, that this would involve. That is all profiles, born in Netherlands that have middle name entered.

44048 Suggestions on 20190616 Total 0000-0000 0001-1499 1500-1699 1700-1799 1800-1899 1900-1999 2000-9999
Privacy
941 Netherlands Birth with Middle Name 44046 539 85 3367 9033 27323 3699
First one on the 1500-1699 list is https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Aan_'t_Heeght-1 -- the "Middle Name" on that profile actually appears to be a variant form of the First Name. That should be placed in the "Other Nicknames" field. However, I think that people may not understand the meaning of "Nicknames," or may not understand that this is an appropriate place to record name variants.

Thanks for providing this report, Aleš!

EDIT:

When implemented it would be possible to define subsets that can then be fixed by EditBot. Subsets should be guaranteed to have Dutch born only, so birth places not ending "NL" (for Newfoundland and Labrador, not Nederland), Amsterdam (place name in multiple countries), etc.

Ellen, I agree, should be in "Other(?) Nicknames" or in "Preferred Name". Fixing the "middle name" can very well be combined with other "upgrading of profiles":

First marriage:

30.08.1696 11.10 .1696 Jan Rensinck, zv wijlen Thijs R. en Jenneken aant Heeght, dv Jan aant Heeght, beide in Lintelo

Second marriage:

01.01.1708 - 29.01.1708 Berent Rossier, zv wijlen Tonnis R. en Jantje in 't Heegt, wed v
Jan Rensink, beide in Lintelo

Berent's second marriage:

17.09.1713 - 08.10.1713 Berent Rosier, wedr v Jantje in 't Heegt, in Lintelo, en Aeltje
Bosman(s), dv Henric B. onder Varsevelt
 

From South Afrika, we are working on the same naming procedure as our Dutch Roots and find this yellow, 'more than one name' flag very annoying.

Since I have started on WT in 2015 I've wondered why they don't have a one name box and call it "First and Secondary Names"

The problem we in South Africa and I believe many other countries, which started of with a high immigrant influx have, is we do not always know  from which country they came and what these countries naming rules are.

I have for instance saw Dutch documents on the Net with  a "Tussen Naam" ?

I sincerely hope we can find a satisfactory solution to this irritating problem.

Than you,

Callie.

Resultaat

Er is geen activiteit meer op deze vraag. Overwegende dat

  • Er een zeer grote meerderheid Ja heeft gestemd
  • De Nee stemmers hun Nee niet of onvoldoende onderbouwd hebben, of het voorstel of de reikwijdte onvoldoende begrepen hebben

Zal ik Aleš te vragen de suggestion (941 -  Netherlands Birth with Middle Name

) te activeren. 


Result

There is no more activity on this question. Taking into account that

  •     A very large majority voted yes
  •     The No voters did not or insufficiently substantiate their No, or did not sufficiently understand the nature or scope of the proposal


I will ask Aleš to activate the suggestion (941 - Netherlands Birth with Middle Name).

Would this affect the French Huguenot families who escaped France and spent time in Amsterdam, etc. before moving on to America, etc.?
To me, middle name just means any names after the first name and before the last name. If there is no other name, i leave it blank. If there are 5 other names, I put those 5 in middle name. I use other names for titles; i.e., Duke of Ellington.

If we make rules for each and every country, we would have to make rules for each century. Some last names were just the name of city, making most not always related to each other.
I agree with Jan. From what I read, there might be an exception for Dutch royals, but those can be marked as False suggestions or if needed, I can exclude the profiles belonging to EuroAtisto project from this checks.

Jan, can you estimate the number of profiles born in *, NL and the number of them, that are actually Canadian. I could remove them or you can correct those locations to state the country correctly.

I will try to get the checkboxes to AddPerson page. That could solve a lot of problems.

Jan, will you write the help page for the suggestion? I will provide you the number. It will probably not be 941.

@Betty,

Please note the scope of the question: people born in the Netherlands. In the Netherlands the concept of "Middle name" is unknown, so you will not find it in any source document (baptism, birth, marriage, death). So if a Huguenot (actually any) child was born and baptized in the Netherlands with given names Jean Claude, in WikiTree the Proper First Name should be Jean Claude, the Middle Name left blank, and the No Middle Name radio button checked.

@Debra,

Dutch just record all given names in the Proper First Name. They don't know nor want to know the artificial concept of splitting given names in two separate name items. Same goes for many other European countries.

@Aleš

Thanks!

EuroAristo

Only some 150 profiles "Netherlands and EuroAristo", sampling some did not give any middle name value. Solution: I will review actual suggestions generated and "false error" them where appropriate (patronymic in middle name, EuroAristo convention)

*, NL

Wish I could query. Can only do NL: 4392 profiles for "NL". Probably (guesstimate) no more than 10% Canada. Solution: I will review actual "NL" suggestions generated and "false error" them where not Netherlands.

Checkbox on AddPerson page

Would certainly prevent many problems. Would that also go for importing Gedcoms (where second and subsequent given names are automatically put in middle name)? And AddPerson API (don't know if exists?)

Help page

Sure, I will happy to write one in the Data Doctors help style and submit it for review.

10 Answers

+23 votes
 
Best answer

JA 

Maak deze suggestie officieel


YES

Make this suggestion official

by Jan Terink G2G6 Pilot (178k points)
selected by Jan Terink
OK just do it, you are not going to accept any reason to not o why even have the question?

I had this out over the French because of all my French Canadian folks there - and they all have three names - one of which is in "the middle"  which is all a middle name is really - but jeeze do not call it that - they do not have them either so whatever you do - do not call those middle names for French or Dutch

Navarro,

OK just do it, you are not going to accept any reason to not o why even have the question?

I am perfectly willing to accept legitimate objections. But I feel free to respond to objections, like I did with John's who did not stick to the scope of the question.

You objected but then said Whoops - voted this by mistake, so I understood I should not count your "No". Unclear If you followed up on Gaile's hint to "unvote".

but jeeze do not call it that - they do not have them either so whatever you do - do not call those middle names for French or Dutch - I did not introduce the term "Middle name", WikiTree did, forcing me to use it in this and other communications, so I don't know what you are trying to say...

I just am saying that it seems like a name in the middle is a middle name and nothing more - I do not get the objection to having it go there - I understand it was not thought of as a middle name in those countries but the objection seems overdone is all I mean - it is fine - I would not put them as middle - if they have three or more they all go in the first except the last - I did see where the Patronymic was going into the middle as a place for them for a while way back in the beginning but that has been done away with for a long time before I came to Wikitree so I would not use the middle name for my Dutch anscestors
Yes do it. I am one of the guilty offenders because I received a wikitree error when I attempted to put the full name in the first name box when initially adding ancestors. I have systematically attempted to correct this but trees branch and I do not know who I have missed. A list of them in my suggestions would be a bonus. I have 2 brothers in my tree, Jan Haveman Bult and Jan Arents Bult so this is clearly not a middle name.
Also do not use middle name in South Africa so it would be grand not to tick that radio button every time  :-D

Ronel,

I sympathize, but please note that:

  • It will be a generated "suggestion", so corrective not preventive. So nothing changes when creating or editing profiles. And a while ago I also noticed and reported that in Gedcom imports multiple given names were split, the first to proper first name, the remaining to middle name. Don't know if that's fixed, I have little hope...
  • To have this suggestion also for South Africa those projects would have to reach consensus on it and ask Ales, just like I'm doing now for Dutch Roots, oops Netherlands

I think it's a good idea to make wikitree more culturally sensitive, if possible, and this is a good example, as long as it's a suggestion that can be overridden. I can easily see some one of a different culture that does use middle names having a child born in the Netherlands; I don't know what the authorities would record, but most likely the family would consider it to be a middle name.

Stew,

Please not that the proposal is to implement the suggestion for Dutch born only. Dutch do not have or ever had the concept of "middle name", only multiple given names. And even with this limited scope, not affecting other cultures that do have this concept, suggestions can always be marked "false".

In South Africa and Namibia there is no such thing as a middle name on any official or historical documents. The first recorded use of Middle name was in 1835 Massachusetts, USA. The names should be recorded as on official documents for consistency.

It would be really nice when a profile is created to have a option to click the "No middle name" radio button instead of having to click the yellow banner and then having to do a separate special edit to click it.

I sure hope there are no other yellow error messages because you get so used to them you don't read yellow messages anymore.

Louis,

I agree that having the "No middle name" radio button also available when creating a profile would be an improvement. I think it has been suggested before in lots of g2g threads.

But those kind of internationally oriented improvemnets are apparently not a priority, see

GIVN tag with multiple words is split: Proper First Name and Middle Name

Just joining in! While I do not edit Wikitree very often (mostly for USA friends), the one thing that has really put me off of entering my own (Dutch) family tree is all the "American" assumptions scattered throughout the profile creation and managing.

I believe it should be possible to really get rid of the middle name option for Dutch-born profiles. Dutch people simply have no concept of middle names. I'm a Catholic myself, bearing three "voornamen", literally translated as "first names". It is really frustrating to have to go through the same orange dialogue box over and over again as you create new profiles. Changing Wikitree to make it more international than just "American" is important if Wikitree wants to be an international tree.

This - and other "country options" should be relatively easy to implement by actively choosing the area someone lived in before creating the profile. This could be automated based on the country family of the person lived in. In the future, this functionality could also be used to embed baptism dates and burial dates as overrides for birth and death dates, or to create separate input for patronymics.
Yes Willem, many members (like me) agree with you, but developer resources are very scarce given that WikiTree is, and always will be, for free.
+6 votes

NEE

Ik geef in een comment op dit antwoord mijn reden(en) op


NO

I supply my reason(s) in a comment on this answer

by Jan Terink G2G6 Pilot (178k points)
Plenty of non royal examples available. My mother's voornamen were Alida Dina Wilhelmina. Quite common for Roman Catholics to have 3 or 4 voornamen, so not limited to royalty. Also like Jan said middle name is a foreign concept for Dutch people. If you want wikitree to be truly international it might be a good idea not to view everything from an American viewpoint.
Yes Joke, thanks!

I think all middle names currently recorded in Dutch profiles are the result of creation by non-Dutch or by Dutch obediently following this Anglo concept.
I totally agree with you Joke&Jan, think worlwide and respect the local Style and Spelling rules. Even worse the new project name for "Dutch Roots" is "Netherlands" violating the official international spelling. It has to be "the Netherlands". The same for autofill in  the namefields.
I have to admit that I find this discussion seems to suggest a difference about nomenclature rather than culture

My British documentation and I suspect John's Australian documentation has nothing to do with America. I don't think there is any British record, either civil or religious that has a box for first name followed with one for 'middle' Indeed the term wasn't apparently coined until the 1830s (and  yes that was  in America) Before the 19thC few people had more than one forename, the exceptions being royalty and the aristocracy who could perhaps be considered the forerunners.

Just as in your example of Queen Wilhemina,  these records have one or more given names followed by a surname. There is no box separating the first from the other forenames. Nevertheless,  to give another royal  example Prince Charles Arthur Philip George was registered, baptised and married with all his forenames but he is  known as Prince Charles; the other names are there but rarely used  >Sometimes the first name is not the one predominantly used  as in the case of Queen Victoria ( Alexandrina Victoria)

I am  having difficulty in seeing how there is any difference between these examples and that of  Queen Wilhemina  or indeed your Gerrit Jan, or  my Helen Mary.

There are cultures that include compound names as 'first' names , France with  Marie Therese and Jean Pauls and even dare I say, the English name MaryAnn.  It makes perfect sense to put these names together in a first name box.

The  'middle name' box , would perhaps better named as second and subsequent given or forenames. To me it seems  less divisive and simpler  to use it  for those names  rather than create differences. .More rules will create more  data errors; the suggestions list seems to becoming rather like the work of Sisyphus as it is.

An alternative  could be to abolish the box entirely.

(edited spelling)
Abolishing the 'middle name' box entirely would be my personal preference.
Abolishing the Middle Name field is technically not a good solution, whats happening with the excisting information in those fields in the profiles. Also not a good solution because the Middle Name is an American option that must be respected as well. A simpler solution is to allow the First Name Field to contain multiple names. The Middle name is then an option you can use when need it. Adjust the Style and Standards and the job is done.

Helen,

I do not agree it is not a cultural difference. Suppose middle name was not an item in the database (and we had only given names, like the Gedcom standard has). See what Chris answered on my Gedcompare splitting the GIVN names question:

For what it's worth, we originally split first names when importing GEDCOMs, then stopped doing it for the reason you cite. We didn't automatically split first names when importing for years, despite many, many, many protests. Finally with GEDCOMpare 2 we added it back.

So this middle name concept on WT is forced on cultures that do not know it, have it nowhere recorded, is not a search item on any Dutch genealogy site, etc, etc.

Edited for typo and link

Joop,

I agree. Better option would be to have the "no middle name" radiobutton available on the "create profile page", as many have suggested in this and other g2g threads. And also when importing Gedcoms
I also resent the absence of the "no middle name" radio button when creating a profile, as it forces to make an additional edit to mark the option (and my contribution count certainly does not need it).

For the record, and though I know this will be ignored, deemed irrelevant and criticized, as someone from a country which ignores the concept of "middle names", I still occasionally use the field. I find it convenient to have this field to push never-used additional given names (and those of family members when I'm confident their actual call name is really the first name on their birth certificate) into. In that sense, I'm glad my family is not Dutch; I would find it a tad dictatorial if, for instance, someone forced me to put all of "Isabelle Emma Violette" in my "First name at birth field" when the only name I (and everyone else ever referring to me) used is Isabelle.

@I R

Like any suggestion it can be marked "false". Any given name can be set as Preferred Name. Also please note that many of these middle names can be the result of importing Gedcoms where GIVN names are split into Proper First Name (first word) and Middle Name.

+10 votes

Yes!! 

ALSO make a list where the proper forms of first and middle name are (example) such as France with Jean-Jacques and in this case the Dutch form 

by Susan Smith G2G6 Pilot (156k points)
Dutch culture does not include the type of naming practice you describe for France. As I understand it, Dutch people have a given name (example: Cornelis) that is followed by a patronymic name derived from the father's given name (example, the son of Jan would have a patronymic name of Jansz). The patronymic name is not a "middle name." Historically (before the adoption of family surnames), it was the person's last name. Dutch members tell us that, when a person has both a patronymic name and a family surname, the given name plus patronymic name should should be treated as the "first name." Thus, Cornelis the son of Jan would have a "first name" of Cornelis Jansz.

Ellen,

Dutch people have a given name (example: Cornelis) that is followed by a patronymic name derived from the father's given name

That's certainly not true in general. Post-1811 (that's when surnames became legally mandatory) patronymics were only sometimes used in some northern provinces. Most Dutch persons just have multiple given names. Like mine: Gerrit Jan, preferred name Jan.

Thanks for correcting me, Jan! All of my experience with Netherlands names is from before 1811. blush

Edited to fix typo 188 ==> 1811

But you were absolutely right on the pre-1811 naming practices Ellen!yes

I'm not sure when given names started to have a standard spelling, but on pre-1811 records a person's name could be spelled many different ways.  Encouraging use of spelling based on modern standards might make it difficult to find and correlate records for older profiles.
Erik,

You are right with regard to many different ways of name spelling pre-1811. But I am always slightly irritated when I see a post-1811 marriage certificate where Wierd Takes Joustra is named as groom, while in his birth certificate his given name is recorded as Wierd, with father named Take Joustra. Addition of Takes in the marriage certificate is unneeded and redundant.
This is where I get easily confused. My great great grandfather Jans Haveman Bult is named JAN on his birth certificate image [http://alledrenten.nl/akte/via-open-archieven/189fe9ff-5cc8-493a-8645-9cca8d733f59] and his older brother Jan Arents Bult is also named JAN on the birth certificate image. [http://alledrenten.nl/akte/via-open-archieven/c947b024-f58e-4db8-99c2-dd583646251b] If it were not for the addition of Arents and Haveman on later documents and certificates like the marriage certificates there would be nothing other than birth date to tell them apart.
Wendy,

You have an exceptional case there: two children with identical given name and same parents. Exceptional but not illegal. Most common in these cases is when oldest dies before the other is born. Not so in this case.

But please note that also in marriage certificates and the death certificate (of the older one) they both are recorded with given name just Jan, no patronymic or matronymic! They both should have proper first name Jan.
Thank you Jan.  I did spend months looking for a death record for the older Jan but found only his career, move and family members. And you are correct about the marriage and death certificates of the older Jan but I have found papers from, some from when he was a minister, that do have Arents added but it could be it was a 'goes by' or preferred name. After he immigrated to the US most of the younger Jan's papers are recorded as John H Bult but still some as Jan H.

Wendy,

Fastest way to find is searching on Open Archives with 2 names, like "jan bult & bouwina timmerman"

The two brothers may both be named Jan, but they're not the same name (sort of.)  One is named for his paternal grandfather and the other named for his maternal grandfather.
+10 votes
Honestly, there needs to be an option for "no middle name" when creating profiles. The vast majority of British and British diaspora people born around 1800 and earlier did not have middle names, either. The fact that this is something that has to be edited after creating a profile is just bad design.
by C Handy G2G6 Mach 7 (70.9k points)
One of many things that would be nice to have. Unfortunately, I've seen profiles that have the "no middle name" box checked, where someone add a middle name anyway, without unchecking that box....
My main reason to vote yes is about consistency.  The first few years I was putting information on WikiTree I always put the patronymic down as the middle name in Dutch names.  Several other people who share some of my ancestors did the same thing.  We didn't know any better.  Years later, I'm still cleaning up profiles.  Most people with Dutch ancestors just starting at WikiTree also don't know any better.  Why confuse them with a middle name option?  And why panic them with a warning that there is more than one name in the proper first name category?  It makes them think they're not supposed to put all the voornamen there.
+6 votes
Ja, maak deze suggestie officieel
by Peter Joseph Promper G2G Crew (980 points)
+7 votes
Ja, maak deze suggestie officieel. Hiermee laat Wikitree zien dat men ook inderdaad wereldwijd kan opereren. Dit is immers alleen een suggestie en ook nog steeds voor alleen de mensen die in Nederland geboren zijn.

Yes, make this a official suggestion. In this way Wikitree shows that it can operate World Wide. This is just a suggestion and only for profiles that are born in the Netherlands. (Or maybe even for more European countries)
by Margreet Beers G2G6 Mach 4 (46.4k points)
+6 votes
Ja, Maak deze suggestie officieel, het is totaal overbodig in de Nederlandse profielen.
by Enoch Stuivenberg G2G6 Mach 3 (35.1k points)
+8 votes

YES​​​​​​! 

Also remove the error message (Yellow banner) if you enter more then one name in the Proper First Name Field when you create a new profile.

by Joop van Belzen G2G6 Mach 5 (58.1k points)
edited by Joop van Belzen

The Yellow Banners while annoying are useful. They reflect that something might need attention. Note the Bolded word in the previous sentence. There are probably more profiles with middle names in the incorrect name field than those that are accurate with multiple names in Proper first name field. So removing the Banner for multiple names will make wikitree worse as the profiles would be more likely have names in incorrect fields(Not the Dutch profiles in the relevant period of course. They don't have the concept of Middle name so two or more names would be correct for them). 

One yellow banner I dislike is the one that pops up when editing a pre-1700 profile as you have to be qualified to work on those profiles anyway and you shouldn't be expected to ask to correct something ever time yet it shows the green "Ask for advice" button on every edit of a pre-1700 profile. 

Should we remove that message. No as just cause I may know the correct style rules and coordinating with a project doesn't mean that the next person will know them correctly. It is the same for the multiple First names error message. The profiles you are working on Joop would be correct with the names you enter but someone else may have made a mistake for a profile that does use middle names and the error messages should make them think and hopefully get them to correct it. 

Darren,

Many in this and other threads have suggested that the "No middle name" radio button on the edit page also be available on the "create profile" page. When checked the yellow message is not needed. See also this thread on Gedcompare splitting GIVN names in proper first name and middle name(s).

Hi Jan 

I agree with your suggestion that the no middle name radio button should be available when adding a new profile. I didn't say anything about that aspect so why did you think i oppose that? I also acknowledge that Dutch (And other areas) do not have the same naming styles as the current Wikitree programming. 

The point of the Yellow messages is to point out that people may have to think. I gave another example of the Pre-1700 message whereas the messages shows even though to edit a profile you need to be qualified. They are annoying when you know the message is incorrect but they are not aimed at the experienced people such as ourselves, they are aimed at the majority of users who maybe don't know the details of how Wikitree works. 

For names I have had the Multiple names message come up after I removed the names (on a New Zealand relative of mine) so it isn't perfect. Unfortunately for people such as you and Joop (To name just two people) your area of expertise runs into a lot more of the false errors name messages due to the Dutch naming systems that were/are used. But removing it if a "No middle name" radio button was clicked would also run into issues where people would just click the radio button to get rid of the message on profiles where the error is valid. That already happens with the Database suggestions with people clicking "False error" instead of working out why the suggestion happened. 

To get an exemption for Dutch profiles to the Yellow name message runs the risk of ensuring that actual errors will get missed. I would rather have false errors than miss actual errors. Yes it would be annoying when working in an area that generates those False errors but don't throw the Baby out with the bath water to use a metaphor. There is already examples of Newfoundland and Labrador (NL) profiles getting caught up in the new suggestion(If i am reading your comment correctly under the main question). Should we not have that suggestion then? Of course we should keep and use this new suggestion as over 44000 probable errors is worth having some false suggestions. 

Hi Darren,

I did not think you opposed the radio button on create, I just mentioned a way to lessen the number of the yellow warning messages. That would urge people to think more, take action (check the radio button) to avoid the message, instead of routinely "save anyway" on the yellow message like I and probably many more do.

I do not quite get the meaning of your last paragraph.

"To get an exemption for Dutch profiles to the Yellow name message". I suggest nothing of the kind, I am just repeating the idea of many others on the radio button at create, in no way suggesting a special treatment of Dutch profiles. That would not be possible anyway, the system has no idea of country of birth at create time.

The original question is only about profiles that Aleš classifies as "Dutch born", and generating suggestions on "middle name" violations for them. Knowing his algorithm give no 100% certainty, otherwise we could have them all fixed by EditBot.

Hi Jan

I have read the thread to imply the connection of the Yellow message and Dutch profiles naming principles. I am sorry if I misinterpreted the messages. 

To paraphrase you comment "the system has no idea of the country of birth naming customs when creating the profile" so therefore a warning message for things the system isn't programmed to accept as right is valid. To program exceptions in may actually be too hard. I for one have found I created duplicate profiles because the original profile didn't show cause it didn't pick up the middle name entered was the same as the original first name and First name entered the same as the original middle name with all other details the same. So to program in the "No Middle Name" radio button will remove the Yellow Name message may not be easily done as not everything on the Create New Profile screen is actually checked by the system on creation which means that sometimes you have to adjust the profile after creating.

Darren,

I think you still do not understand what is meant by having the "No middle name" radio button on the create profile page, the same button that is on the edit profile page. Having this button (mind you: countryname is not involved) the programming is simple:

if radio button pushed
    if middle name entered
        say invalid combination:
            pop button or erase middle name

    else
        everything is fine
else
    if more than 1 word in first name at birth
        say the old yellow message
    else

        everything is fine

Not exactly rocket science I would say.

+7 votes
Yes, make it official,
by Herman Overmars G2G6 Mach 2 (23.7k points)
+7 votes
YES!

Jazeker. Doen.
by Jorris Hoste G2G4 (4k points)

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