Which John Budd emigrated to Connecticut the Rye, NY?

+5 votes
298 views

The Puritan Great Migration project seeks your help solving this puzzle.  We have at least three profiles, two of which are duplicates but all claiming to be the immigrant, for John Budd. In addition to the linked profile, we have:

One was married to a Katherine Brown, the other to a Katherine Butcher. Both? had daughters named Judith? 

We need to document and source each family and figure out which family emigrated. There are sources on each of the profiles but not for all of the children. 

I'd like to use this g2g thread to map out each family with sources so perhaps we can finally identify the correct immigrant family.  Your help is appreciated. 

WikiTree profile: John Budd
in Genealogy Help by Jillaine Smith G2G6 Pilot (688k points)
The following g2g about daughter Judith suggests there was no wife Katherine Brown-- that's she's fictional.

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/836844/who-were-the-parents-judith-budd-john-ogden-francis-brown-3643

But at least one of the John Budd profiles claims there were two different couples.

What sources besides an unsourced pedigree in the back of a supposedly fraudulent genealogy supports the existence of a Budd-Brown family?

Supposedly, one John Budd was from Stepney and the other from Chichester. Can we source each of these claims, please? 

Where John Budd who wrote his will in1669 in Rye was born is clearly unknown.

There was a John Budd in Stepney who had a son John, b. 1625. That is the sum total of the research done on him.

Some John Budds were born 1595-1600 in Sussex Parish Registers.  See[https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J983-5WG]

One John Budd married Katherine Butcher Nov.20, 1620 see [https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J983-5WG?givenname=John&surname=Budd&marriage_place=Sussex%2C%20England&marriage_year_from=1618&marriage_year_to=1624&count=20&offset=0]

In Chichester, Sussex, England.  John, Jane, and Mary were all bpt. In Chichester. 

A  Judith Budd  was bpt. In Felpham, Sussex in 1635, dau. OF John and Katherine Budd.

 It appears John and Catherine‘s first child was a Catherine who died young and was buried in Felpham. 

This appears to be the strongest evidence for Lt  John Budd of southhold and Rye being John Budd who married Katherine Butcher in Chichester and had children there and in nearby Feldham-- names of which match those of known children of Lieut John Budd in NY:

One John Budd married Katherine Butcher Nov.20, 1620 see [https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J983-5WG?givenname=John&surname=Budd&marriage_place=Sussex%2C%20England&marriage_year_from=1618&marriage_year_to=1624&count=20&offset=0]

In Chichester, Sussex, England.  John, Jane, and Mary were all bpt. In Chichester. 

A  Judith Budd  was bpt. In Felpham, Sussex in 1635, dau. OF John and Katherine Budd.

In my research I’ve come across this same issue many times. I believe the link to Katherine Browne to be false. If you follow that line of ancestry through many generations of Anthony Browne’s you end up with running into the FitzAlans and thus royal ancestors. I’d read somewhere that Katherine Browne never left England and couldn’t possibly be the wife of John Budd. 

Therefore, I’ve chosen to list Katherine Butcher on my, as yet unattached Family tree. I believe she is the correct wife and that the children listed are those she had with John Budd. 

However, if someone decides Katherine Browne is correct I know a lot of information about the Anthony Brownes. wink

It's already been demonstrated that Katherine daughter of Anthony Brown married someone else and remained in England.  So that's been crossed off.

But several people continue to hold onto Brown still being the maiden name of Lt John Budd the immigrant and that the John Budd/Katherine Butcher is a separate couple.  What I'm trying to understand is what valid source supports this identification?
Will the John Budd and Katherine Butcher family get a PGM sticker?
Only if there is evidence that they were in New England by 1640.

Hoadley has them in New Haven.  P. 18 If memory serves .  John Budd is listed as a planter in 1639.  [https://books.google.com/books?id=ZkMOAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=records.+new+haven.&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8iZS5h7DjAhXydM0KHZAqDFQQ6AEIDjAB]

6 Answers

+1 vote
This may or may not help and I do not know if relevant. Anderson in his Great Migration Directory (Immigrants to New England, 1620-1640), 2015, lists: Budd, John: Unknown; 1640; New Haven, Southold [Lechford 314; NHCR 1:91; NYGBR 52:75; 67:243]. Jillaine, you might want to check this to assure that I didn't miss-copy. Visual problems today. Thanks, Carol
by Carol Baldwin G2G6 Pilot (101k points)
+2 votes
There are two other potential sources of information on John Budd in Anderson's The Great Migration Newsletter Vol.1-25). Page 133, Column 2 headined EDWARD JONES: 1644 land given to Mr. Jones that was formerly granted to John Budd of Yeanocock [Southold]. On pp. 400-401 there is information on PROPRIETARY SHARES in the 1640 List of Estates. On page 401 first column bottom lists 24) John Budd [6/450]. This information and my response with Anderson's Great Migration for John Budd might hold clues as to these John Budds.
by Carol Baldwin G2G6 Pilot (101k points)

See Budd-1552 for his timeline, with sources from New Haven to Southampton, to Southold, To Rye where he wrote his will in 1669.

+5 votes
Thank you for all your help on this issue.  As shown on WikiTree, I don't see how the descendants can't be duplicates:

Both John Budds are shown as having daughters Jane and Judith and a son named John.  Jane is married to a man named Joseph Horton according to both profiles.  Judith is married to John Ogden and Francis Brown according to both profiles.  John (the son) is shown as married to Mary Horton on one profile and the biography of the other indicates he was married to Mary Horton.  Each John Budd's descendants have profiles that are mirror images of the other's according to name.  Current and ongoing editing is bringing the dates of descendants further into alignment.  There were not two distinct families of Puritans that had a father named John Budd, three siblings named John, Jane, and Judith, and the spouses of the three siblings all in agreement.
by K. Anonymous G2G6 Mach 7 (72.8k points)
+1 vote

Collection of sources:

Found this PDF article which lists a lot of source references:
http://bradleyrymph.com/fam-grp-sht_budd-john_horton-mary.pdf

From article:
John BUDD (Budd-142)
Birth: Abt. 1625 in ENGLAND
Baptism: 12 May 1625 in Stepney, Middlesex, ENGLAND; at St. Mary, Whitechapel
Marriage: Abt. 1653 in Southold, Suffolk Co., NY
Death: 05 Nov 1684 in Southold, Suffolk Co., NY
Burial: Southold, Suffolk Co., NY; at Old Burying Ground of First Presbyterian Church
Emigration: May 1637 in London, ENGLAND; Sailed from England aboard "The Hector"
Immigration: 26 Jun 1637 in Boston, Essex Co., MA; Arrived in Boston Harbor in ship "The Hector"
Father: John BUDD
Mother: Katherine BROWNE


England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Name: John Budd
Spouse: Katherine
Child: Judith Budd


England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Name: John Budd
Spouse: Katherin
Child: John Budd


London, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812

Name: John Budd
Spouse: Katherin Budd
Child: John Budd


London Metropolitan Archives; London, England; Church of England Parish Registers, 1538-1812; Reference Number: P93/MRY1/001

“He was likely born in or near Stepney, London, England where his children were born.”


England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975; John Budd; Baptism 12 May 1625; St Mary Whitechapel, Stepney, London, England

Son: John BUDD


New Jersey Biographical Sketches, 1665-1800

“John Budd, b. in England, came from London about 1632, and was one of the planters of New Baven Colony, in 1639. He was appointed a deputy from Southold, L. I., in 1653 to the General Court, but had gone to England in the meantime. His appointment from Southold indicates that he was already settled there. He was lieutenant at Southold until 1660, when he resigned, he having removed or being about to remove to Rye, Westchester county, N. Y., where he was settled in 1661. He m. Katherine -; d. 1670. By a declaration, dated October 15, 1669, he gave to son John his part of the mill on Blind brooke, and all lands otherwise undisposed of, and personal property, in consideration whereof John was to pay his father or his mother "thirty pounds a year in good pay that is to say wheat Twenty pounds porck one Barrell pease the rest. . . . that we may be freed from trouble." This instrument seems to have been recorded May 13, 1675, which was probably about the time of John's death. Issue:
i. John.
ii. Joseph.
iii. Judith, m. 1st, John Ogden; 2d, Francis Brown.
iv. Jane, m. Joseph Horton.”


U.S., New England Marriages Prior to 1700 (Torrey)

Katherine Budd (Brown) m. John Budd c. 1620 in England


Morris D'Camp Crawford and his wife, Charlotte Holmes Crawford : their lives, ancestries and descendants
Charts (p. 219)

Katherine Brown + John Budd = Judith Budd
Katherine Brown + John Budd = John Budd Jr


John Budd, 1599-1670, and some of his descendants : a historical journey through four centuries to fifteen generations : including the allied families of Browne, Horton, Underhill, L'Estrange, Merritt, Cornell, Thurman, Sparks, Dallas, and Motley by Lily Wright Budd, from research by Lily Wright Budd and Marjorie Hannah Budd; Published in [Franktown, Colorado], Subject class 929,272 B858

“Katherine was born in England. Katherine married Lieut. John Budd circa 1619 at England. She and John were blessed with 6 children. John along with twelve other families - Rev. John Young, Wm. Wells. Jacob Corey, Peter Hallock, John Tuthill, Richard Terry, Thomas Mapes, Mathias Corwin, Robert Ackerly, Isaac Arnold, Barnabus Horton, and John Conklin - sailed to Long Island and settled at Southold. He sold land in Southold 9 March 1659. John's wife, Catherine & their son John, son John's wife Mary, & Sarah, wife of Robert Tredwell had to acknowledge the consent of the sale. The family removed & resided in Rye, Westchester Co., New York. In 1635, Katherine and her husband John immigrated on the ship ‘Planter’ landing in Salem, Massachusetts. “

“In 1637, John Budd (1599-1670) and his wife Katherine Browne (1606-1674) and children emigrated to Rye, Connecticut. Some of their grandchildren moved to New Jersey and New York, while some great-grandchildren moved to Kentucky and Indiana continuing the general westward migration of the family. “


Charles B. Moore, Town of Southold, Long Island. Personal Index Prior to 1698, and Index of 1698, page 9-10 - John Budd.

Family: Lieut. John Budd and Katherine Browne


Chronicle of a Border Town, Westchester County, New York, by Charles W. Baird
NEW YORK, Anson D. F. Randolph and Company, No. 770 Broadway, 1871.
FAMILIES OF RYE: The Early Settlers - 1659 to 1700 - and their Descendants

http://dunhamwilcox.net/ny/rye1.htm

John Budd of Southold left two sons, John and Joseph; and two daughters: Judith, who married first John Ogden, and second Francis Brown; and Jane who married Joseph Horton. (Rye Records, B. 57, deed from Jane and Joseph Horton, in 1673, to John Budd of Southold, conveying to him one hundred acres of land 'which our father Budd gave us.' See also declaration quoted above).
by his will dated Oct. 13, 1669, he gave his son John part of the mill on Blind Brook, and his son Joseph the 'Eqauquammes' land. 


Edward Hart; descendants and allied families, by Clara Hart Kennedy. Bloomington, Ill., 1939.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89066160581&view=1up&seq=74

“It was divided among the planters, each one receiving one acre which was ready to cultivate for raising crops.  John Budd 2, 1680 purchased several lots and soon owned a very valuable farm which remained in the Budd family to the fourth generation John 4, (John 3, John 2, John 1).

“John Budd 1 was the first authorized Military officer to train the Home Guards in his community, therefore was called Leiut.

“Lieut. John Budd the progenitor, b. 1600, England, d. 1679 at Rye, New York, m. in England Katherine Browne.  Children: John m. Mary Horton, Jane m. Joseph Horton, Judith m. John Ogden.”

by William Catambay G2G6 Mach 1 (15.6k points)
William, thanks for joining the conversation and for the sources above.  I hope David will also join in.  

What I'm still having trouble following in all of this is where Brown as surname of wife Katherine comes from and, related, why you and David think there were two couples John and Katherine, one of which remained in England.

In fact, I think it would be great if you and David summarized your theory/case for your viewpoint and Anne X summarized hers.  I'm having trouble seeing the overall picture.

Thanks.

Do you (or anyone else) have a copy of John Budd, 1599-1670, and some of his descendants ? I looked it up. It was published in 1992 and there appears to be no online version of it. I'm curious what it cites for Katherine being a Brown. 

Children all baptized in Sussex, England

(records are at familysearch.org)

You have the 1620 marriage record of John Budd and Katherine Butcher.

* Katherine, bap.18 Oct.1621, Chichester St. Andrews, bur. 1634, Felpham, Sussex.

* Mary, bap. 17 July 1625, Chichester St. Pancras, Sussex.

* John Bap. 22feb1630, Chichester, Sussex, England

* Sarah, bap. 1627, Chichester St. Pancras, bur. 1636 Felpham.

* Jane, bap. 1633, Chichester St. Pancras

* Judith, bap. 1635/6, Felpham , Sussex, England” dau. Of John and Katherine”

In his 1669 will John Budd of Rye mentions wife Katherine, son John, Daughters Mary, Jane and Judith - all still living in 1669.

It was all that conflicting information from various books that made me crazy.  That’s why i decided to do my own research, find what original contemporaneous records  I could, and then lay out a timeline as I went along.
I think this marriage plus set of baptisms of a family with the same names as that of Lt. John Budd in New York makes a pretty compelling case for the NY family being the Chichester family.  William? David? Thoughts?
David had some theories about why he believed the Stepney Budds were the ones that immigrated to Rye, but I cannot find his notes.  Awhile ago, he mentioned that he didn't have time to continue working on this.  Unfortunately, I'm in the same boat (full-time job, full-time single dad), yet I do feel compelled to find the truth behind my 10th great grandparents.  I recently downloaded the full version of the books that talk about the history of Rye and John Budd, but haven't had time to read them completely.  The one by Lily Wright Budd is no longer available in digital format (not sure it ever was), but it is at a few libraries (all, of course, in states far away from me). I contacted the Texas library, and they gave me instructions on how I could possible get my local library to issue a request for certain pages to be copied and emails to my library.  I might do that.

I also found a registry of marriages for Chichester that cover the years that Katherine Butcher married John Budd of Sussex.  There was a John Budd marriage in it, but it was not this John Budd, and it was not to a Katherine.  I do find it interesting that the Butcher/Budd marriage was only on a handwritten ledger, supporting David's belief that given their locality, they were less likely to be the ones that emmigrated.   There was the John Budd Jr baptism in Stepney in 1620.  

As far as the Chichester names matching the Rye names, both the first names and the Budd names are pretty common, plus we don't hear about Sarah and Katherine.  Why would they have been left behind.  Anymore details on their deaths?  How do we know the Mary listed in John's will is not his daughter-in-law?  Almost every source I've seen has only shown John, Judith, Joseph and Jane.  

I've also seen some references that Katherine Browne's father may have been Hackeliah Brown, a known acquaintance of John Budd (or perhaps a relative of the Hackeliah that was her father).  I'd have to find that reference again.  Just another possibility for the parentage of Katherine.

There are burial records for the daughters Katherine and Sarah; they died young.

Here is the Chichester marriage record of John Budd and Katherine Butcher (far right column): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DYHQ-XTB?i=53

You wrote: "I do find it interesting that the Butcher/Budd marriage was only on a handwritten ledger, supporting David's belief that given their locality, they were less likely to be the ones that emmigrated.  "

Please explain. All registers of that time period were handwritten. Where does David discuss his belief that their locality makes it less likely they emigrated?

A review of the sources above re: Brown as Katherine's last name only come from compiled genealogies.  I'd still like to know if the 1992 book by Lily Wright Budd cites any source for Brown. And Torrey calls her "Brown[?]" indicating his own uncertainty about it.

Here is the 1625 Stepney birth of John, son of John and Katherine; no maiden name given for Katherine; this appears to be the only Stepney record for this couple:


"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NBCW-S36 : 11 February 2018, John Budd, 12 May 1625); citing , index based upon data collected by the Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm 94,691.

Right now, the preponderance of evidence based on original records (not compiled genealogies) suggests the Chichester family of John Budd and Katherine Butcher as the emigrating family.

I believe what David was referencing is that the Budd/Butcher couple did not register for a marriage license.

The "Sussex Record Society" put together a document of registered marriages in Chichester:  

Calendar of Sussex Marriage Licenses

Recorded in the Consistory Count of the Bishop of Chichester for the Archbeaconry of Chichester

June, 1575, to December, 1730.

by Edwin H. W.  Dunkin, F.S.A.

 

There was no marriage license registered for the Butcher marriage.  There is only the image posted on familysearch.org of the couple's names.  

Butcher-3067.png (957×235)

Unfortunately, I could not find a marriage license registry for Stepney.  That would have been very helpful.

I think "preponderance of evidence" may be an overstatement.  

William that is an image of the parish register, written at the time  by the vicar or his clerk and now kept at the West Sussex Archives in Chichester . There was no set form at this time but this is a typical example. All baptisms , marriages and burials were supposed to be recorded in it (how complete they are depended on the vicar and is ibviously variable. If they exist today or not depends on luck. Many earlier registers have been lost or damaged over the centuries)  

This couple were 'of this parish'.They would have married after banns had been read on the three previous Sundays during the service. (the vicar announces the proposed marriage and asks the members of the congregation to declare any impediment to it (i.e. underage, too closely related  or already married.) Had they lived in different parishes the banns would have been read in both. There were no banns books  at this time.(come in in late 18thC)

Most marriages were after banns. Licences were only necessary if the couple wished to marry in a parish other than their own  or wanted to marry immediately. (Sometimes wealthier folk would marry by licence to avoid the public reading of banns). They would have had to swear that there was no legal impediment to the marriage making a bond to that effect. This had to be issued by the bishop or his representative. Copies of what are called  'Allegation and bonds  were kept by the ecclesiastical courts.(though not all survive). The actual marriage would still be recorded in the parish register.

I agree about the preponderance of evidence. In particular, the baptism of Judith; this is a somewhat less common Christian name.

I has a look at the West Sussex archives. There is an entry in a deposition book concerning a dispute over tithes where a John Budd of St Andrews Chichester is mentioned. The date is 1634 which is about the same date that it is suggested 'our' John Budd moved to Felpham .Obviously without seeing the deposition one can only speculate about what the case was about and it could be another John Budd. It did occur to me that moving would mean that he no longer needed to pay tithes in Chichester.Maybe he owed some from previous years.  http://www.westsussexpast.org.uk/SearchOnline/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=Ep%2f3%2f5%2f2&pos=2

William, until you and David can find your collective notes supporting the Stepney couple as the immigrants and "Brown" as maiden name of Katherine, there is far more evidence that the emigrating family was the John Budd who married Katherine Butcher and baptized the same set of children in Chichester.

We can certainly keep the John Budd / Katherine Brown couple who baptized a son John in Stepney (although we still lack a source for Brown as her maiden name). But there simply is insufficient evidence that they were the Southold, NY family.
+1 vote
I think the problem might stem from a source on Ancestry.com, commonly called “The Budd Family”. It’s full title is much longer “The Budd Family Address of Col. Enos Goble Budd, delivered at Budd’s Lake, Morris County, New Jersey, August 14th, 1878...” Title goes on for another few lines, something to do with the family reunion. Perhaps someone can attach the link. It states the wife of Lt. John Budd to be Katherine Brown (sic).

I don’t know the validity of the source; but, it does go on about William the Conquror (sic), Hindoos (sic) and Adam and Eve.

Ancestry.com also suggests the dubious  “English Ogden Ancestry” as a source for Judith Budd.
by Jennifer Jordan G2G4 (4.8k points)

For Ancestry.com subscribers, the link is:

Budd, Enos Goble.. The Budd family. New York: F.W. Sonneborn, 1881. https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/genealogy-glh15201411/

Like many late 19th century compiled genealogies, it cites no sources. On page 6, it simply says "He married a Kathlene Brown". No source.

+1 vote

. Budd-1552 is on the list  of Planters  in New Haven  June 1639.  Source is Hoadley*s  History of New Haven

by Anne X G2G6 Mach 1 (12.3k points)

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