Was Richard Covert really born when his father was 7?

+6 votes
290 views
Currently Richard was born in 1508, his father in 1501. Richard's DOB appears to have been established on the basis that he was MP for Shoreham in 1529 according to Richardson. John's DOB comes presumably from his entry at History of Parliament which also says that it was John, not Richard, who served for Shoreham in 1529. If HOP is correct then Richard's DOB can be estimated more in line with his marriages, the births of his children and his father's age. I'm inclined to go with HOP since Parliament is what they do. Left a note for PM. Sources on the profile.
WikiTree profile: Richard Covert
in Genealogy Help by C. Mackinnon G2G6 Pilot (334k points)
His mother was only six!

Well, it was a different age. cheeky

If I may be so bold, the only way these children of seven and six had a child is if they found him under a cabbage leaf.

Ah, the Fairy Tale defense. Works in court sometimes. laugh

4 Answers

+6 votes
Richard Covert died in 1579 at Slaugham, Mid Sussex District, West Sussex, England. The Cemetery is St Mary Churchyard.
by Frank Gill G2G Astronaut (2.5m points)
+5 votes

Found 3 records, but no birth 

Rd.

Last name Covert

Name note -

Marriage year 1558

Marriage date 26 Jul 1558

Marriage place West Wittering

Spouse's first name(s) Cath.

Spouse's last name Ernley

County Sussex

Country England

Record set England Marriages 1538-1973

Category Life Events (BDMs)

Subcategory Parish Marriages

Collections from England, Great Britain

by Living Poole G2G Astronaut (1.3m points)

Must be more than 1 Richard 

RICHARD

Last name COVERT

Marriage year 1583

Marriage day 22

Marriage month Sep

Marriage place NORTHAMPTON ALL SAINTS

Parish Abington

Spouse's first name(s) Frances

Spouse's last name Walker

Spouse's title -

Spouse's parish -

Event Type Marriage

County Northamptonshire

Country England

Record set Northamptonshire Marriages

Category Life Events (BDMs)

Subcategory Parish Marriages

Collections from England, Great Britain

Richard

Last name Covert

Name note -

Marriage year 1592

Marriage date 11 Jan 1592

Marriage place Appleton with Eaton

Spouse's first name(s) Cicell

Spouse's last name Fetiplace

County Berkshire

Country England

Record set England Marriages 1538-1973

Category Life Events (BDMs)

Subcategory Parish Marriages

Collections from England, Great Britain

+1 vote
Is it possible that the father and mother could have been 'betrothed' to each other when they were those ages? Given the time frame (16th century) and location (England), this could be a possibility. The PM might just have assumed (wrongly) that these were birth years and did not seek further information. Just a thought. The only person I know of who slid down a moonbeam and landed under a cabbage patch was my kid sister.
by Carol Baldwin G2G Astronaut (1.2m points)
+2 votes

There's reason to believe that John's birth estimate is in the right range. So perhaps Richard the MP was not his son but his brother, presumably both sons of Richard Coven ca1 1470-1547?

"John Covert (by 1501–1558) was an English politician.

He was the eldest son of Richard Covert of Slaugham, Sussex.

Covert was elected a Member (MP) of the Parliament of England for New Shoreham in 1529 and Sussex in October 1553 and November 1554. He was High Sheriff of Surrey and Sussex for 1554–55.

He married twice: firstly Joan, the daughter and coheiress of Thomas Cooke of Rustington, with whom he had 2 sons and 2 daughters and secondly Anne, the daughter of William Beard of Cowfold.[1]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Covert_(by_1501%E2%80%931558)

https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/covert-john-1501-58

p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 11.0px 'Lucida Grande'; color: #232323} p.p2 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 11.0px 'Lucida Grande'; color: #232323; min-height: 13.0px} span.s1 {color: #0b1480}
by Monica Edmunds G2G6 Mach 3 (38.4k points)
Richardson and British History online both have Richard as son of John. The comment on the profile says his DOB estimate was chosen because Richard was MP in 1529 (according to Richardson). HOP says it was John who was MP in 1529 which would leave no basis for the estimate of Richard's DOB. Changing it to about 1520 would satisfy everything else. Unhappily when Richardson is cited it is never made clear what he actually says or why. Can't check it out as Richardson is a closed book in Europe unless one owns a copy.

Either Richard was not the MP or he is not the son of John. I think the former more likely. Given that he had a sister Jane who married a man born ca 1527 (Fettiplace) and a daughter who married that man’s son, born ca 1545, it seems most likely it's the birth date that's off and that it was John who was the MP. I would guess he was born closer to ca1520. Or even later given his marriage “ca. 1564” at which time he would have been nearly 60. But who was his father?

I notice that stirnet has him as son of George, John's half brother based on Visit of Kent and Berry (though Berry has him placed as son of John, odd). Burke seems to omit him completely. Also not seeing him in the pedigree in the Roll of the Royal College of Physicians. Maybe I’m just looking too quickly? Either way he would be grandson of the previous Richard. 

Do we know which of Richard’s wives was John’s mother? Was John or George older? George's mother was the 2nd wife, Eliz Neville. But she already had a handful of children by her first husband all born by ca 1500. I don’t see George on the tree.

George’s in-laws (Sir Humphrey Forster & Elizabeth Sandys) are currently estimated as bef 1526 and bef 1538. And his brother-in-law Sir William Forster married Jane Hungerford, est born aft 1525. I suspect Humphrey and Elizabeth could be pushed back a fair bit.

I think it would help to do some number crunching with all the known relations to get a fix on where Richard might fit in.

Is Berry the only source that places him as son of John? (Disregarding Richardson’s choice unless he gives support for choosing one source over another where they don’t agree.)

[https://buist-keatch.org/buist/goring/2082.html]

Is the above any help?

also there's this which is a bit diffy to parse, can anything be gleaned from the relationship of Richard (presumably Richard the elder d. 1547) to these Sidneys and Apsleys? The writer is John Apsley, son of William, whose grandmother was the unnamed Sidney, daughter of Cicely Michell and Sir Wm Sidney (d. 1449?), who married Lord Knotsford (Knutsford? can't seem to pinpoint him). 

“That Willm Sydney of Kingsham had 3 wyves, 1 The Lord St. John’s daughter, 2 the Lady Michell’s daughter, who lyeth in St. Magnus in London, 3 was Lord Mitforde’s widowe. By the 1 wyfe he had a daughter who was married to John Michellgrove, by whom he had issue a daughter wh. being heire to Michellgrove was married to John Shelley, Esq.; and that the said Willm. Sydney had dyvers daughters by the Lady Michell’s daughter, whereof the one was married to the Lord Knotsford, and by her had issue the Lady Beatrice and other daughters, which Beatrice was married to Richard Apsley, and the other daughters of the said Wilm Sydney were married to other gents in Sussex… And by the 3 wyfe Lord Mitforde’s widowe, my grandmother notes nothing but the marriage. And Richard Apsley and Beatrice before-named had issue Willm, Thomas, and Edward Apsley, and thus far forth my grandmother’s hand touching this peddigree. But to my knowledge the said Willm married (and) had issue John Apsley, wh. John had 2 wybes, by the one had William and John, and 5 daughters, and by the 2 had Henry the bearer, and Anthony with two daughters. And the said Edward Apsley had issue John Apsley of London who had one only daughter married to Jeffrey who was Justice in her lyfe tyme and afterwards Ld Chieff Baron, by whom she had one only daughter which is now his daughter and heire and to prove somewhat my grandmother’s saying’s true. Sometime before I was married one Stedolphe of Micklam in Surrey came to Slagham to my father-in-law’s house named Richard Covert, grandfather to the now Richard, wch. Stedolphe opening the kindred of the Sydneys, approved such kindred between the Coverts and the Apsleys by the said marriage with the said Willm Sydney his daughters. But that my Father and the said Richard Covert were (but four) germaynes removed. And the said Jane Michell and I were cousins of the 4th degree, … whereby my father-in-law and mother were divorced. And I could not marry the said Jane untill the lycense had from Rome for fyve marke paide to the Pope’s collector, about this tyme 47 years; and my father-in-law obtained a license, but my mother departed then from Slogham for conscience sake to Thackham, and there dyed. By me John Apsley.” — Harl. MSS. 1160. 

Memoir of the Molineux Family

By Gisborne Molineux, p. 71

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