What do we know of Mathurin Guyon, born about 1530 in France?

+6 votes
261 views

Mathurin Guyon has a profile in WikiTree which makes him the father of Jacques Guyon (documented father of the pioneer Jean Guyon du Buisson) and the son of Jean Guyon des Granches, conveniently making the pioneer Jean Guyon the great-great nephew (by marriage) of explorer Jacques Cartier.

Unfortunately, there are a few problems:

Looking closely at Jacques Guyon's profile, his parents should probably be unknown. No reputable source names them.

Going up one generation, the only sources for Mathurin are:

- Généalogie Québec, relying on emails from a mysterious (and ubiquitous) contributor.

- Geni - I could go back to their source, which is: "Denis Beauregard, Dictionaire généalogique de nos origines, Tome 1 1608-1730, Ière Edition, Productions FrancoGène, 1998, p. 50."

- A Find a grave memorial (no picture, no grave, no date or place of death - and I would not expect any in this time and place unless the person was a notable buried IN the church - and it would need a big notable to have a surviving inscription) which is a new version that apparently contradicts an earlier one

- Rootsweb/Worldconnect (unsourced)

- Ancestry links (on the profile; I can't access).

Mathurin also has a similarly unsourced wife, two unsourced children (in addition to Jacques), an unsourced mother, and 6 unsourced siblings. Thanks to a couple of secondary sources, we know that the profile set as his father existed and that he was Jacques Cartier's brother-in-law, but we have no credible source confirming him as Mathurin's father.

The only lead I have is that Geni cites Denis Beauregard, but if you look at Jacques Guyon's profile on Beauregard's site, you see that his parents are not mentioned. No Mathurin.

To sum up:

- Should Jacques Guyon be left with unknown parents?

- Did Mathurin Guyon exist?

WikiTree profile: Mathurin Guyon
in Genealogy Help by Isabelle Martin G2G6 Pilot (317k points)
retagged by Isabelle Martin
Parents are usually named in a marriage contract. So the best thing to do now is to find a copy of this 15 Apr 1578/1583 mutual donation, which unfortunately is not online. Anybody living close to Alençon?

By the way, fichier origine has: "date de mariage des parents [de Jean Guyon] 15-04-1583, lieu de mariage des parents Mortagne-au-Perche (St-Jean et St-Malo) (Orne) (61491)". The odd thing is that 61491 is the INSEE code for Tourouvre, Mortagne-au-Perche being 61293. Maybe the marriage contract was made in Mortagne (no point in specifying a parish, the name of the notary would be more useful), but the marriage itself is more likely to have taken place in Tourouvre - we will never know as no record of that period survived.
I checked the glass and crystal maker databases since Cartier is allied there but while there were some listings for Guyon non were that early with all showing in the 1700s.

Regarding PREFEN &  Fichier Origine claiming same 15-04-1583 date for, respectively, marriage contract & religious marriage events and PREFEN indicating  Tourouvre parish religious register does not exist before 16-07-1588, there is the possibility, a likely one in my view, that Fichier Origine profile is mistakenly showing religious marriage event instead of marriage contract as intended. I will contact Fichier Origine to verify both issues:

  • Does Fichier Origine really mean 'Date de mariage des parents'?
  • Why does Fichier Origine say of Jean Guyon that 'Ses grands-parents paternels sont Mathurin Guyon et Madeleine Aymard.'?
Edit: From religieux to religious

Regarding Julien possibly having unearthed another inconsistency with the Fichier Origine profile for Jean Guyon, I think he may just be on to something there. It is indeed more plausible that Jacques Guyon and Madeleine Aymard signed their marriage contract in Tourouvre than in Mortagne. Madame Montagne says, on p. 18 of Tourouvre et les Juchereau , of the Tourouvre church, « C'est là que furent baptisés Jean et Noël Juchereau, Henry Pinguet, Louise Lousche et leurs trois enfants ... [and other migrants from Tourouvre to Canada] ... Toussaint Goyer et Jehan Guyon...  Et c'est là que s'étaient mariés leurs enfants.» PREFEN indicates that Jacques Guyon is among the notables of Tourouvre and that Jean Guyon grew up in Tourouvre. In 1615, Jean Guyon married Mathurine Robin. The book Tourouvre et les Juchereau  describes a tradition of Choiseau notaries responsible for notarizing over forty engagement contracts at Tourouvre. (In other words, there is likely no problem find a Tourouvre notary for the marriage contract for Guyon and Madeleine Aymard.). And so on.

Edit: From Jucherau to Juchereau

Just to clarify a bit, Jacques Guyon's wife was Marie Huet. Madeleine Aymard is the name given for his mother. We have nothing on her. And she has the exact same name as Zacharie Cloustier's wife.

Thanks for contacting Fichier - it would certainly help a lot to know where their information comes from.
Also, Marie Huet's parents are not believable. Eustache Huet and Madeleine Avrard? Too close to Mathurine Robin's parents for comfort! Add to that, "Eustache Huet" has more dubious parents attached, and those two (Eustache and Madeleine) originally had double names, Guillaume Eustache and Madeleine Agnès. Inline references have been carefully placed on Marie's profile, giving the impression that the parents are mentioned by three sources, but they are not.

Also, the PREFEN notice goes exactly like this: ''Jacques et Marie Huet dont la trace la plus ancienne est une donation mutuelle au dernier vivant datée du 15 avril ''. How do we know it's a marriage contract? It could be a separate act made years after they got married. Indeed the way it's phrased on the notice sort of implies it's not a marriage contract. And... It may not name parents in that case.

The same date, 15-04-1583, for mutual donation by PREFEN and for religious marriage by Fichier Orgine is coincidentally inescapable and needs reconciliation. It is Laforest (and others who no doubt copied from Lebel or Laforest), who make equivalence between mutual donation and marriage contract. The 15-04-1583 date compares with Jean Guyon birth on 18-09-1592—nine years apart—which is entirely without realm of possibilities. The problem dealing with secondary or tertiary sources is that is becomes difficult to judge which source to trust the most . PREFEN is a good source but we are missing the core database and U de Caen was dealing with a short-time project focused in and around Perche whereas Ficihier Origine has been at is for many years covering all pionneers who can be traced back to a firm place in Europe to immigrate to New France's Canada...

Edit1, 18-09-2019, 12:30PM: According to francogene.com Jacques Guyon, (..), born in France married Marie Huet (..), from Tourouvre?, born in France, before 1583-04-15.

Edit2 18-09-2019, 12:50PM: According to PRDH Famille #6, Jacques Guyon & Marie Huet were married before 18-09-1592. There is no mention of marriage location.

I agree that Marie Huet's parents are not believable. Her parents should be detached and the profile should be modified accordingly.

Edit: According to PRDH Individu PRDH Individu 75999 Marie Huet died in France on 26-02-1626. 

According to Carpin citing Madame Montagne (1969): « Jean Guyon était issu d'une famille qui semblait nouvellement installée à Tourouvre quelques années avant sa naissance. Son père fit partie des notables de la paroisse ... et ... le père de [Jean] Guyon était marchand. » So no mention of Mathurin Guyon as grand-father but the father's (Jacques) mutual donation and marriage contract(s) may well NOT have been notarized at Tourouvre.

Edit: Family Group Record for Jacques Guyon & Marie Huet, p. 6 of 17 cites Dictionnaire Genealogique des Familles du Québec (by Université de Montreal & René Jetté, on p. 548) to the effect that Jacques Guyon died at St-Jean de Mortagne and NOT at Tourouvre as now shown in Guyon-79 / Jacques Guyon profile.

4 Answers

+6 votes
The only possible source I can guess at is an article about the immigrant- "Jean Guyon before his departure for Canada" by Mme Pierre Montagne that appeared in the first issue of the French Canadian and Acadian Genealogical Review in 1968. Concerning the family's origins, she writes that Jean's father Jacques first occurs at Tourouvre in 1578; he was unable to sign his name on a record he witnessed. She goes on to note that the Guyon name was new to the region, but that in 1577 there was a Mathurin Guyon, merchant at Mamers, but with no early records available "we do not know if Mathurin Guyon is the grandfather of our hero" (i.e. Jean Guyon). She writes nothing further on this Mathurin or his family connections.
by Roger LeBlanc G2G1 (1.2k points)
+5 votes
I am particularly troubled by Mathurin's unsourced wife (Madeleine Aymard), and I doubt that she existed either.  Especially since she has been confused with a later Madeleine Aymard (who apparently did exist).        Furthermore, it looks very suspicious that Jacques Guyon's wife Marie Huet is listed as having a mother with a very similar name (Madeleine Avrard).  

So I would say that Jacques Guyon's parents are unknown.    And that Mathurin Guyon did not exist (and the existence of the older Madeleine Aymard who he supposedly married is even more doubtful).
by Kenneth Kinman G2G6 Mach 5 (52k points)
if you read through the PREFEN notice in there (in French), you will find documentation on Madeleine Avrard married to Jacques Robin hence mother of Mathurine Robin.
Which reminds me that the parents attached to Marie Huet, Jean Guyon's mother, are probably spurious. Eustache Huet and Madeleine Avrard? Those look like copies of the parents of Mathurine Robin to me (Eustache Robin and Madeleine Avrard).
right, messy there, and confusing too.  Will get back to these.
+5 votes

Fichier origine has Mathurin Guyon and Madeleine Aymard as grandparents of Jean:

https://www.fichierorigine.com/recherche?numero=241993

Don't know where they get it from, not from Jetté, just looked, not from DBC http://biographi.ca/fr/bio/guyon_du_buisson_jean_1663_1F.html

by Danielle Liard G2G6 Pilot (253k points)
Indeed, one wonders where they got that from? PREFEN research indicates that the registers do not even go back to Jacques Guyon and Marie Huet's marriage (Jean Guyon's baptism is not covered, though one or two younger siblings are). So any information on Jacques's parents can not come from there.

Madame Montagne's research indicates that Jacques was illiterate, yet Fichier states he was a surveyor?

http://numerique.banq.qc.ca/patrimoine/details/52327/1986900?docref=wkTPfyCR9P50heZhcW_4EQ&docsearchtext=archange%20godbout

This is the work by Archange Godbout, which appears to be the source for Fichier origine.  Page 151-152

+3 votes
I don't know why people create profiles without the sources to support them. And even for many of these older-ancestor profiles that DO have citations (often inadequately done), I see a lot of poor secondary sources (such as Findagrave, Geni, NosOrigines, etc.) where there should be much stronger primary sources referenced.

I'm sorry to be negative, but I think it's best to let those with the language, resource, and/or academic expertise in these lines to handle these profiles.
by Ryan Ross G2G6 Mach 1 (19.5k points)
edited by Ryan Ross
Speculations about Jean's parents should be done on his profile; a separate profile for his father based upon guesses and extremely doubtful secondary sources shouldn't be created...especially without any citations.

I am sure Al Wopshall had good intentions when he created the profile close to 9 years ago, which is a long time ago in WT time terms. 

WT's policy regarding such pre-1700 profile sourcing is as outlined and discussed more recently in the G2G guestion Is your source for pre-1700 genealogy reliable enough to use on WikiTree?

It seems like Guyon-54 is a good candidate to be "merged away." Is this allowed?
we have a lot of profiles created a long time ago which are being reviewed for proper sourcing, this is what Isabelle and the France team are doing.  What happens with the spurious profiles afterward is up to them.
Regarding Mathurin, the priority is to disconnect the profile, both from his "son" (Jacques) and his "father" Jean, both of whom existed. But we'd keep links within the biography text for people familiar to the theories and expecting to find the connections, or just curious to explore them.

Mathurin could be marked "Uncertain Existence" though a comment by Madame Montage suggests there was a Mathurin Guyon in Mamers at the time.

Madeleine Aymard on the other hand... there is clearly no evidence that she existed at all. But if we merge the profile away, it might be created again. The solution would be be to keep the profile, label it and document the state of research. I would only merge away profiles that really look like one-off mistakes. If they are found everywhere on Ancestry, Geni, Geneanet, MyHeritage.... then there is value in keeping them (but disconnected) for reference.
I understand. Thanks for your response.
Anonymous right above is me.

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