What do we know of Mathurin Guyon, born about 1530 in France?

Question

Mathurin Guyon has a profile in WikiTree which makes him the father of Jacques Guyon (documented father of the pioneer Jean Guyon du Buisson) and the son of Jean Guyon des Granches, conveniently making the pioneer Jean Guyon the great-great nephew (by marriage) of explorer Jacques Cartier.

Unfortunately, there are a few problems:

Looking closely at Jacques Guyon's profile, his parents should probably be unknown. No reputable source names them.

Going up one generation, the only sources for Mathurin are:

- Généalogie Québec, relying on emails from a mysterious (and ubiquitous) contributor.

- Geni - I could go back to their source, which is: "Denis Beauregard, Dictionaire généalogique de nos origines, Tome 1 1608-1730, Ière Edition, Productions FrancoGène, 1998, p. 50."

- A Find a grave memorial (no picture, no grave, no date or place of death - and I would not expect any in this time and place unless the person was a notable buried IN the church - and it would need a big notable to have a surviving inscription) which is a new version that apparently contradicts an earlier one

- Rootsweb/Worldconnect (unsourced)

- Ancestry links (on the profile; I can't access).

Mathurin also has a similarly unsourced wife, two unsourced children (in addition to Jacques), an unsourced mother, and 6 unsourced siblings. Thanks to a couple of secondary sources, we know that the profile set as his father existed and that he was Jacques Cartier's brother-in-law, but we have no credible source confirming him as Mathurin's father.

The only lead I have is that Geni cites Denis Beauregard, but if you look at Jacques Guyon's profile on Beauregard's site, you see that his parents are not mentioned. No Mathurin.

To sum up:

- Should Jacques Guyon be left with unknown parents?

- Did Mathurin Guyon exist?

Comments

Just to clarify a bit, Jacques Guyon's wife was Marie Huet. Madeleine Aymard is the name given for his mother. We have nothing on her. And she has the exact same name as Zacharie Cloustier's wife.

Thanks for contacting Fichier - it would certainly help a lot to know where their information comes from.

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Also, Marie Huet's parents are not believable. Eustache Huet and Madeleine Avrard? Too close to Mathurine Robin's parents for comfort! Add to that, "Eustache Huet" has more dubious parents attached, and those two (Eustache and Madeleine) originally had double names, Guillaume Eustache and Madeleine Agnès. Inline references have been carefully placed on Marie's profile, giving the impression that the parents are mentioned by three sources, but they are not.

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Also, the PREFEN notice goes exactly like this: ''Jacques et Marie Huet dont la trace la plus ancienne est une donation mutuelle au dernier vivant datée du 15 avril ''. How do we know it's a marriage contract? It could be a separate act made years after they got married. Indeed the way it's phrased on the notice sort of implies it's not a marriage contract. And... It may not name parents in that case.

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The same date, 15-04-1583, for mutual donation by PREFEN and for religious marriage by Fichier Orgine is coincidentally inescapable and needs reconciliation. It is Laforest (and others who no doubt copied from Lebel or Laforest), who make equivalence between mutual donation and marriage contract. The 15-04-1583 date compares with Jean Guyon birth on 18-09-1592—nine years apart—which is entirely without realm of possibilities. The problem dealing with secondary or tertiary sources is that is becomes difficult to judge which source to trust the most . PREFEN is a good source but we are missing the core database and U de Caen was dealing with a short-time project focused in and around Perche whereas Ficihier Origine has been at is for many years covering all pionneers who can be traced back to a firm place in Europe to immigrate to New France's Canada...

Edit1, 18-09-2019, 12:30PM: According to francogene.com Jacques Guyon, (..), born in France married Marie Huet (..), from Tourouvre?, born in France, before 1583-04-15.

Edit2 18-09-2019, 12:50PM: According to PRDH Famille #6, Jacques Guyon & Marie Huet were married before 18-09-1592. There is no mention of marriage location.

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I agree that Marie Huet's parents are not believable. Her parents should be detached and the profile should be modified accordingly.

Edit: According to PRDH Individu PRDH Individu 75999 Marie Huet died in France on 26-02-1626. 

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According to Carpin citing Madame Montagne (1969): « Jean Guyon était issu d'une famille qui semblait nouvellement installée à Tourouvre quelques années avant sa naissance. Son père fit partie des notables de la paroisse ... et ... le père de [Jean] Guyon était marchand. » So no mention of Mathurin Guyon as grand-father but the father's (Jacques) mutual donation and marriage contract(s) may well NOT have been notarized at Tourouvre.

Edit: Family Group Record for Jacques Guyon & Marie Huet, p. 6 of 17 cites Dictionnaire Genealogique des Familles du Québec (by Université de Montreal & René Jetté, on p. 548) to the effect that Jacques Guyon died at St-Jean de Mortagne and NOT at Tourouvre as now shown in Guyon-79 / Jacques Guyon profile.

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Have you tried looking into http://jewishgen.org? I'm looking for legitimate sources myself because this is my family but, to go back to the first Guyon in France (my theory anyway, no proof yet), the records are in medieval latin. Also, according to my DNA and the new Wikitree Maps+ feature, they appear to be Jewish. You will find them on JewishGen but I am still looking for sources such as burials, vital records, etc. to confirm the findings. 

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in!

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Connie don't know if this will help

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/122050717/_  for Mathurin Guyon 1532-1578 Mortagne-au-Perche, Departement de l'Orne, Basse-Normandie, France

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I had thought that Fichier Origine was a reliable source, is it not? If he is shown as the grandfather of Jean Guyon, is this not reliable? The concern about his parents is one issue, but I also see on his profile that it says "this person may never have existed;" however if Fichier Origine is reliable, should this be removed? Or if someone doesn't mind, could they explain the degree of reliability of FO and why in this case it's unreliable?

http://www.fichierorigine.com/app/recherche/detail.php?numero=241993

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Jessie,

like everything else, Fichier origine relies on research done and published by others, they try to be as exacting and accurate as possible, but errors do crop up. I know they are reviewing a lot of profiles to add more sources and documentation, and remove unproven assertions.

Answer 1

The only possible source I can guess at is an article about the immigrant- "Jean Guyon before his departure for Canada" by Mme Pierre Montagne that appeared in the first issue of the French Canadian and Acadian Genealogical Review in 1968. Concerning the family's origins, she writes that Jean's father Jacques first occurs at Tourouvre in 1578; he was unable to sign his name on a record he witnessed. She goes on to note that the Guyon name was new to the region, but that in 1577 there was a Mathurin Guyon, merchant at Mamers, but with no early records available "we do not know if Mathurin Guyon is the grandfather of our hero" (i.e. Jean Guyon). She writes nothing further on this Mathurin or his family connections.

Comments

See note I just left in above answer

Answer 2

I am particularly troubled by Mathurin's unsourced wife (Madeleine Aymard), and I doubt that she existed either.  Especially since she has been confused with a later Madeleine Aymard (who apparently did exist).        Furthermore, it looks very suspicious that Jacques Guyon's wife Marie Huet is listed as having a mother with a very similar name (Madeleine Avrard).  

So I would say that Jacques Guyon's parents are unknown.    And that Mathurin Guyon did not exist (and the existence of the older Madeleine Aymard who he supposedly married is even more doubtful).

Comments

if you read through the PREFEN notice in there (in French), you will find documentation on Madeleine Avrard married to Jacques Robin hence mother of Mathurine Robin.

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Which reminds me that the parents attached to Marie Huet, Jean Guyon's mother, are probably spurious. Eustache Huet and Madeleine Avrard? Those look like copies of the parents of Mathurine Robin to me (Eustache Robin and Madeleine Avrard).

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right, messy there, and confusing too.  Will get back to these.

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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/122050801/madeleine-guyon  She also listed in the same cemetery as Mathurin

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thanks Laura, another place that needs correction I guess, the thing looks like one of the little pac-man monsters, only instead of him eating up stuff, he spews it out all over the net.

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https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Aymard-38 this is the REAL Madeleine Aymard

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Find A Grave can often be wrong.  But it does at least give you a hint of where to possibly look for a record.  Like contacting the cemetery for any real records.  I find there are more Find A Grave listing for these old records but often they have no real cemetery record behind them.

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There is no grave for people back then that could be found, FaG has gotten into being a family tree site, I have more than once seen a ''photo'' on their site purporting to be the grave, but in fact being the modern day cemetery gate.  I kid you not.

This is a 16th century profile, and the records for that period are few and far between.

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I agree.  In some cases for well connected or royal folks there is sometimes a plaque or a window with a name in it if the burial listed is a church.  There are some cemeteries in small towns in France that have graves maintained by family still that go back to the 1600s  I have some actual photos of examples of that but these are not the rule.  That is why I think it is a good idea to at least check with the listed cemetery to see if what is listed is in anyway supportable.   I neither rule in or out anything without first checking... unless of course what I have is a primary record.  Those are far and few between.

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https://gaia.orne.fr/mdr/index.php/docnumViewer/calculHierarchieDocNum/378791/1057:371440:372097:378791/768/1366

St-Jean parish of Mortagne-au-Perche hasn't got any records online before 1600.  Puts him out of range.

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https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2524211/memorial-search#srp-top

Looks like somebody has been creating memorials for all the profiles connected to this question

Answer 3

Fichier origine has Mathurin Guyon and Madeleine Aymard as grandparents of Jean:

https://www.fichierorigine.com/recherche?numero=241993

Don't know where they get it from, not from Jetté, just looked, not from DBC http://biographi.ca/fr/bio/guyon_du_buisson_jean_1663_1F.html

Comments

Indeed, one wonders where they got that from? PREFEN research indicates that the registers do not even go back to Jacques Guyon and Marie Huet's marriage (Jean Guyon's baptism is not covered, though one or two younger siblings are). So any information on Jacques's parents can not come from there.

Madame Montagne's research indicates that Jacques was illiterate, yet Fichier states he was a surveyor?

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http://numerique.banq.qc.ca/patrimoine/details/52327/1986900?docref=wkTPfyCR9P50heZhcW_4EQ&docsearchtext=archange%20godbout

This is the work by Archange Godbout, which appears to be the source for Fichier origine.  Page 151-152

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I looked at pages 151-152 (Godbout) and there is only the list of children of Jean Guyon and Mathurine Robin with their baptisms?

Wondering if the name "Mathurin Guyon" given to Jacques Guyon's purported father is simply coming from Mathurine himself (ie, both parents of Jacques Guyon made up from later members of the family).

Answer 4

I don't know why people create profiles without the sources to support them. And even for many of these older-ancestor profiles that DO have citations (often inadequately done), I see a lot of poor secondary sources (such as Findagrave, Geni, NosOrigines, etc.) where there should be much stronger primary sources referenced.

I'm sorry to be negative, but I think it's best to let those with the language, resource, and/or academic expertise in these lines to handle these profiles.

Comments

Speculations about Jean's parents should be done on his profile; a separate profile for his father based upon guesses and extremely doubtful secondary sources shouldn't be created...especially without any citations.

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I am sure Al Wopshall had good intentions when he created the profile close to 9 years ago, which is a long time ago in WT time terms. 

WT's policy regarding such pre-1700 profile sourcing is as outlined and discussed more recently in the G2G guestion Is your source for pre-1700 genealogy reliable enough to use on WikiTree?

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It seems like Guyon-54 is a good candidate to be "merged away." Is this allowed?

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we have a lot of profiles created a long time ago which are being reviewed for proper sourcing, this is what Isabelle and the France team are doing.  What happens with the spurious profiles afterward is up to them.

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Regarding Mathurin, the priority is to disconnect the profile, both from his "son" (Jacques) and his "father" Jean, both of whom existed. But we'd keep links within the biography text for people familiar to the theories and expecting to find the connections, or just curious to explore them.

Mathurin could be marked "Uncertain Existence" though a comment by Madame Montage suggests there was a Mathurin Guyon in Mamers at the time.

Madeleine Aymard on the other hand... there is clearly no evidence that she existed at all. But if we merge the profile away, it might be created again. The solution would be be to keep the profile, label it and document the state of research. I would only merge away profiles that really look like one-off mistakes. If they are found everywhere on Ancestry, Geni, Geneanet, MyHeritage.... then there is value in keeping them (but disconnected) for reference.

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I understand. Thanks for your response.

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Anonymous right above is me.

Answer 5

Reviving this thread after one year, I'd like to finally move forward with this and disconnect Jacques Guyon from parents. Links to their profiles will remain on the biography and it will be noted that Fichier names them, though without source.

I'd like to rewrite the profile as well, as currently parts of it are confusing. I started cleaning the Sources section.

Please comment here if you have other information, suggestions, objections or questions.  Thank you!

Comments

OK, my arguments have carried, Fichier origine has amended the file to remove mention of grandparents for Jean Guyon, https://www.fichierorigine.com/recherche?numero=241993 is updated fichier for Jean.  

My arguments being that 1) Biographi.ca which they cite as a source doesn't even name Jean's parents, let alone grand-parents, and 2) Godbout also doesn't name such but only children.

Disconnection is in order.

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I would agree with disconnection here and removing any reference to purported parents of Marie Huet (which, in my eyes, must be someone having accidentally thought Mathurine Robin's parents were Marie's, and the power of the Internet perpetuating the incorrect information). I don't have a problem referencing Mathurin and Madeleine in the biography, but my concern with listing Mathurin and Madeleine merely as uncertain parents and not disconnecting altogether is that the likely inaccurate information will continue to be perpetuated on other sites.

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right Mark, forgot about this one, am going to disconnect him from Jacques.

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France Project, could we also get this profile under PPP so he doesn't get parents added back please?  Have detached him and left appropriate note on profiles concerned.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Guyon-79

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I've put a note on Marie Huet's profile, still no credible evidence for her parents either.  Haven't detached them yet.

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Thanks all! Jacques Guyon is now project managed and protected.

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Ugh! We also need to disconnect Philip Guyon and other siblings... They're unsourced. Fichier makes no mention of Jean Guyon's siblings at all, which could mean anything.

(Edited to clear up my initial confusion of children and siblings of Jean).

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Marie Huet's parents are obviously copycats of Mathurine Robin's parents, and extremely unlikely to be legit.

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Barbe Guyon is a duplicate of Jean's daughter, with dates made to fit, proposing merge for her.

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There are actually a number of Huet listed in Godbout's work that covers the area, none are linked to Marie however.  Am going to disconnect her.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Huet-18 now removed false parents, needs PPP also I think.