Was there approval for Ancestry sources to be REPLACED by FS instead of adding both?

+14 votes
1.0k views
I know we will never reach an agreement on the use of Ancestry images here.  I was watching a Data Doctors video on Biography "suggestions" which really freaked me out.  They were telling Data Doctors to REPLACE the ancestry image link with FamilySearch link.  That combined with the fact that they were not showing the Biography in narrative form made me wonder if at some point they would be reorganizing my narratives into (Heading) (fact) (source) format.  If so this would send me away.  

A majority of the folks who replied to my g2g said narrative is still the preferred way for biographies (although a few disagreed).

YouTube Biography Suggestions 831 and 811 are two in which I noticed this... I didn't watch all of them.... I was ready to quit my hours long biography writing.

YouTube.com/watch?v=jBjPgdVN06o&

Web Sites are not necessarily forever.  My thought is that if the census image is available on multiple sites, why not show more than one in case one goes away, temporarily or forever.  I have used Ancestry for years so I am most comfortable using it and most of my records are from it.  There are images on ancestry that are not available online elsewhere.  I am not a member of other pay sites so I couldn't see those sources but I appreciate members here adding the information and the source.  At least I know it exists and if I want to look elsewhere I should find it.  I know we want each source mentioned in a profile only once ... but it seems to me that multiple locations to access an image would be a benefit and not take up too much space.

I am interested in input from the powers-that-be on WikiTree… and not another paid site squabble.  

Can we use multiple locations for Census Records?
in Policy and Style by Cherry Duve G2G6 Mach 6 (69.6k points)

My view on both Ancestry.com and FamilySearch.org is that our citations should at least link to a transcription; if an image is available, a link to it can be added to the citation. My rationale is that Ancestry.com and FamilySearch.org (and any other such sites) are websites with document image repositories; a viewer of WikiTree profiles is on the web and probably prefers accessing any website-based documentation online. That is, "I'm on the internet; show me sources that I can access on the internet!"

Another point is that we WikiTreers all have our preferred sourcing repositories, both online and off. The same is probably true for our non-WikiTreer viewers. Thus, we should maximize our source references for the convenience of our viewers. Individually, we may only work one of the repositories; collectively, we should strive to include them all.

Therefore, if viable citations are on a profile, they should not be removed. If the citations are not viable, we should leave them and try to make them so; if we can't, we should still leave them as a clue for others to let them know we used the referenced repository and that the repository can no longer be accessed.

Cherry, I'm making this a comment, rather than an answer, because I am *NOT* one of the "powers that be" from whom you requested an answer.  I simply cannot keep my hands firmly enough over my mouth to refrain from stating my opinion even though I'm not who you want to hear from!

I think there is something very wrong if the data doctors are instructing people to remove any valid and well cited source from a profile, no matter what the reason - period - end of subject.

My advice to you - and everyone else - would be to stop watching their videos if this is the kind of information that is in them.
Ancestry is a paid resource which requires a subscription; FamilySearch is free. If the same information is available from both sources then Ancestry should never be used at all.
I'm not a "power-that-be," either, and I never want to be one, but I just want to say that I very much agree with Cherry, Lindy, and Gaile. Yes, dead or faulty links to Ancestry can be corrected or noted as dead/faulty, but they should remain in sources as a "see also." They are where that person got their information. Supplement/augment with "free" sources when possible, but do not remove/replace sources just because they are from a subscription site. Would you remove source information from an expensive/rare book that's not online that others are not able to access? No, you wouldn't. Same principle.
Dead Ancestry sources that have old broken links should be replaced with a statement that they were deleted. After saving the edit,  use the statement on the profile as the link title using the edit located on the changes page as the link.

This will clear the clutter on the profile and leave a link should anyone want to see that Ancestry source.
I understand what each of you have said & agree with a few of your points.

What I've learned from my volunteer work is that  if I'm going to volunteer then it doesn't matter what I think. It matters what the people who wrote the help pages & videos think.

I've long thought that in order to ease tensions between Data Doctors & everyone else that everyone should be encouraged to watch the videos. That way we'd all be on the same page & everyone would realize that most Data Doctors don't make it up as they go but follow instructions, or at least try to. Then if there's an issue the real person in charge could make the decision.

I found this page showing a way to share Ancestry images with non Ancestry members & think it's brilliant:

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/792811/creating-a-free-to-view-image-link-from-ancestry-com

I think both FS & Ancestry have pieces of the same source & together they make up the whole. Until I saw Dina's post I had planned on showing both on my profiles. Thank you Dina!
@Nelda: I disagree about the dead links. Having dead links in a profile "just to show where someone got their data from" is useless. It is no longer information if it is a dead link, because no one can "see where the information came from". It might as well be from thin air, or out of my hat. A URL that goes nowhere should be removed, because it's about as useful as having nothing on the profile to begin with.
Eric, as long as you (or anyone) are being respectful of the work of others and collaborating with others and abiding with the guidelines as written in WikiTree's help pages, I have no quibble with what you (or anyone) does.

18 Answers

+10 votes
 
Best answer

I checked both videos and profile histories, and I don't think deletion and replacement of sources in featured profiles is the problem.

On 831 video the problem is in repeated blocks of text (ancestry citation of 1850 and 1860 census) in explanation of each info. Those citations should be done using Named inline citation on first occurrence and on other facts just the reference to it should be used. The existing citation could be just reformatted to use Named inline citation, but the link used was not working as well. This was the link used. http://trees.ancestry.com/rd?f=sse&db=1860usfedcenancestry&h=38888207&ti=0&indiv=try&gss=pt I know it can be reformatted, but very few people know how to do that. So that page just told, that 1860 census has info about the person even if you have subscription to Ancestry. It was replaced with Family Search citation of the same census, so no information was lost and the link works.

In 811 Wright example, the situation is similar. There were 3 profiles merged together with very different sources and in this case only link to Ancestry tree worked, which is not considered a source if official records are found. All other links reported 

We’re sorry, this page is no longer available.

So in light of providing working links all profiles were sourced very well in line with sourcing standards used on on WikiTree these days. And I couldn't see that any information was lost. 

BTW: on each video, there are links to featured profiles, where you can check the changes done to the profiles.

On payed vs. free sources I vote for free ones, since we can all see them. But I don't think anyone is going through profiles replacing ones with the others. But in cases of huge mess on the profiles, it is easyer to start from scratch. Extreme example of this are present in suggestion 867 Too many Inline citations video 

Play the video.

by Aleš Trtnik G2G6 Pilot (808k points)
selected by Living Terink
+4 votes

Family Search is not a Paid Site, in case you think it is.  It requires Registration to use it, but there is no Subscription fee to use it.

As far as I know, all of the Census references are on Family Search, as well as on Ancestry.  They have been indexed by both sites, so the indexes may be different.  On wikitree, there is a Space page that has been set up for links to all of the Census on Family Search https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:US_Census_Categorization#Federal_Census_Resource_Index_Box

As far as images, my understanding is that NO images should be added to a profile, unless you personally saw the item and took a picture of it or paid for the document, so that you have the document in your possession.  This is because of copyright issues on other sites, ie Ancestry, Family Search, Find a Grave. 

by Linda Peterson G2G6 Pilot (780k points)
I think Cherry's concern is that her research and links are being removed (or might be) because they point TO ancestry images.  That the Data Doctors are being told to do this (remove / replace) rather than add to.
I NEVER remove a source, altho I might put it under a separate heading.

But I do see Ancestry "sources" that don't go anywhere and Ancestery "trees" that are flat wrong, including some of my early Lamberton ones, perpetuate errors. I won't use Ancestry as a primary source because they all point to their "behind the paywall" site and that isn't fair to those who don't subscribe.

I have the same issue with My Heritage, and all of the other pay to play websites. At least WikiTree doesn't ask for money every time I try to follow a lead.

But it is personal preference here, and if Ancestry is the ONLY source, then you should use it.

rsl
I am sure that if you did a survey - the bios that have a more story feel to them would be preferred - if there are sources to back up the facts in the story

I remove the links to trees - or the Ancestry garbage that goes no where but leave the others and the FS being free I go see if the source is for the right person of that name and add it
+14 votes

The main thing would be to cite it properly so that everyone can see the location of the family in the National Archives no matter what.

https://www.archives.gov/

An example of that citation without a "brand" attached would be this:

Edward Shute Household, 1870 U.S. Census, Clark County Illinois, Cumberland Township, Casey Post Office, National Archives micropublication M593, Page No. 34

Also, of course, you would add a link to that.

So you can see the difference, familysearch citation for the same record is this:

"United States Census, 1870", database with images, FamilySearch(https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M64N-CK6 : 11 June 2019), Edward Shute, 1870.

by Dina Grozev G2G6 Pilot (198k points)
Wow that is foolproof, how cool, will start doing it that way!
Dina, I also like the idea of including more information in the census citation so it can located in any repository. The cut-and-paste citations from FamilySearch are oh so easy and convenient, but really aren't as complete as they could be. I'm going to review some of your profiles to better see what you've done and may begin to adopt a similar method, as well.
I agree,this is a good example of a citation. It will allow anyone to find the record now or in the future. One doesn't need a link. I could find that and I have very little experience of the US census. The FS citation merely tells me that you found information about Edward Shute somewhere on the US 1870 census .

I often use books written centuries ago. If they are good secondary sources they include evidence to back up their claims . Very  often it is then possible to find the record today. It's even easier with more modern texts that use archival reference numbers just as the record above. On the other hand URLs from the earlier version of Family Search or from the site 1837online,com (which became Findmypast)  which may date back to no more than 10-15 years ago will no longer work.

The FS citation link brings you to the exact page and image where the person was found with city, state and sometimes street, if that was captured. Unfortunately the citation doesn't 'always' have all the information.  Many of them do have all the information, including the reel and image. 

This space page has the links to family search and archives.org, I think, for all the census years that we can access.  I have not verified all of the archive.org links though. 

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:US_Census_Categorization

+8 votes

I know the bigger problem on WT is profiles with no sources. But here's a few situations where I think removing sources is appropriate:

1 - Having multiple citations to the same, identical source is unnecessary and undesirable. Pick the best one - eg the free one. As an example, many of the genealogy books available on ancestry.com are also available for free on archive.org, hathitrust.org and books.google.com.
2 - Once a reliable source for a factual statement is provided, an unreliable source can and should be deleted. For example, if the only source for a statement is an unsourced online family tree, keep it. But once a reliable source is provided, the unreliable source should be deleted.
3 - There is a limit to how many sources one needs to support a particular fact. I have done profiles where I have 4-5 in-line citations for a simple fact - eg the person's marriage. That's probable too many. Pick the best 2 or 3.

That said, I do think a good argument can be made for keeping an ancestry citation to a census record and not replacing it with a familysearch.org citation. The census image may be the same, but ancestry does a nice abstract of the census records, that familysearch.org does not provide, so they are not really identical.

by Chase Ashley G2G6 Pilot (313k points)

Chase, although familysearch is the free one, it is not necessarily the best one.  Recently we have started to have problems with family search when they started to change the format of their displays and the URLs to their pages included user/password identification that caused them to break when others tried to click those links.  Fortunately that has stopped now, but we never know when they could start making changes again that make their pages inaccessible.

In addition, in spite of recently seeing (in G2G) that the same images are in use on both sites and they come directly from the government, I cannot believe this because I have occasionally found an image so poorly scanned that it was unreadable in one place and the same image is much clearer in another.

For these reasons, it is still good to have additional sources of the same information or image, even if a paid subscription may be required to see it.  We also need to remember that most libraries have ancestry subscriptions that can be used by anyone who goes to the library to do so, thus you don't have to pay ancestry to be able to see their records.

Also, not all citations need to be used inline. I do like Roy does, placing citations from each site under separate subheadings in the See also: subsection.

And if one WikiTreer removes a viable citation, other researchers who don't check every change made to the profile may simple add it back. Rather than wasting our fellow researchers time, we should leave any viable citation.

Each WikiTreer who adds information to a profile should leave a citation or research notes trail for his/her sources of that information.

edit: Whether or not a source is accessible online or off, or via a free versus pay website, should be irrelevant.. We cite the place or website at which we found our information; we can indicate in the citation if the source record is online or offline and if it has free access or requires a subscription to view.

edit: changed accessed to accessible

Gaile, most American libraries might have free Ancestry access, but that doesn’t happen in Australia and I wonder if other countries don’t?
Marion, I'm not sure where you are from in Australia, but my local council library in Queensland definitely has access to Ancestry.com.au and given the popularity of genealogy, I'd be very surprised if that wasn't pretty common throughout most states.
I’m in South Aussie, and the 3 nearest libraries didn’t have free access last time I enquired. Might have to check with them again.
I think Chase makes an important point in his final paragraph that I'd like to expand on a little. That is, the transcriptions provided by Ancestry and FamilySearch for the US Census are often quite different. Both in terms of which columns are transcribed and the interpretation of the data in each each (where each repository transcribes the same column).

For most of us, we would refer to the image to resolve such differences. Since both FamilySearch and Ancestry provide the same image, some would argue that the two websites provide identical information and therefore the non-free Ancestry citation should be replaced by the free FamilySearch citation.

But for a small minority of members, who are severely vision-impaired, the transcriptions are essential to their ability to verify the source, which is the key reason we provide sources. These members often rely on screen readers, which cannot interpret images, but can interpret transcriptions. By including citations to BOTH FamilySearch and Ancestry, such members (if they have an Ancestry subscription) can easily tell where the transcriptions agree and where they disagree, which helps them verify the individual items of information within the census.

I accept that this is (hopefully) a rare situation, and am certainly not suggesting that we should all rush out and add Ancestry citations to our profiles in addition to the FamilySearch US Census citations. But where a profile already has an Ancestry US Census citation, we should not be replacing/deleting it. Rather, we should ADD the FamilySearch citation.

We need to have a very high bar before we delete valid citations to primary sources, even where they are to a subscription-based site such as Ancestry. Even if the transcriptions at each site are identical, I would suggest that this is still valuable information for a vision-impaired Wikitree member.
Nic, you're making excellent points and eminent good sense, to my way of thinking.

Just one thing, though - the images are not always the same on both sites.  They usually look the same, but I have occasionally found differences to the point that one is barely readable while the other is very clear and this can go either way - it's not that one is better than the other.
Thanks Gaile, good point, I have occasionally noticed the same thing. The quality of the images is not always identical!
+11 votes

If people were to replace some of my Ancestry/Find My Past citations with the free alternatives on FamilySearch, they will find that they have actually linked to a citation that does not give all the information. They lack the original images, and some of the transcriptions are simply incorrect.

My understanding is that it is WikiTree policy not to replace source citations that other users have submitted for this very reason.

by James Knighton G2G6 Mach 2 (28.1k points)

I completely agree. Several of the answers to this question, like the Data Doctors video that caused it to be asked, appear to have only considered US records and have overlooked the fact that the situation is different in other parts of the world.

For UK censuses, which I think might be one of the examples you are referring to, FamilySearch only contains a transcription and not an image. Even the transcriptions mostly seem not to have actually been done by FamilySearch, as their citation links to FindMyPast (a pay site).

On all the English profiles that I manage I cite both the Ancestry source and the FamilySearch source for each census. In the Ancestry citation I include a free-to-view link to the image on Ancestry (using the method described in https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/792811/creating-a-free-to-view-image-link-from-ancestry-com) and also a link to the record (using the template on https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Links_to_Ancestry).

I certainly hope that nobody will follow the instructions in the Data Doctor video literally when they say "The sources are from a paid site, Ancestry. If possible these should be changed to a free site". At a minimum this really should have continued "as long as the free site contains at least the same amount of information, including any images"

+12 votes
I'd be very annoyed if anyone did that to profiles I've worked on. I use Ancestry and am happy to share to the best of my ability the information I have paid for. Keep both, one might go away and the likeliest is Family Search. If anyone wants to add Family Search as an extra to my work, feel free, but please respect what I have done. Added NOTE. I never cite Ancestry Family Trees.
by C. Mackinnon G2G6 Pilot (335k points)
After giving this some thought, I see the wisdom in redundant sources. I do not think that we should replace one complete resource with another, simply because it is behind a pay wall. While I disagree that Ancestry.com will outlast FamilySearch.com, I do think that keeping multiple sources allows for failover, and also adds a level of convenience for users on those platforms.
+6 votes

Ancestry is a paid site which requires a subscription to view records; FamilySearch is free with registration. For US Census records, the same information including images is available from both. Given that this is the case, I can think of no reason why Ancestry should ever be used for records that are freely available from FamilySearch (since the Ancestry paywall prevents people without a subscription from viewing them).

by C Handy G2G6 Pilot (210k points)
+10 votes
If I am looking at a profile that has only Ancestry sources, then I will try and find FS sources to ADD to the profile but I will never remove the Ancestry source.

The reason I do this is because I am one of many people who do NOT have a subscription to Ancestry and thus the links to all Ancestry sources are of absolutely no value to me at all.
by Robynne Lozier G2G Astronaut (1.3m points)
Agree 100%. Well said.
+10 votes

I have not read everyone else's answers, so forgive me if I repeat anything. 

When I "remove" ancestry links, it is usually on profiles with inactive PMs,on orphaned profiles, or on profiles that have much GEDCOM "junk" in them (repeated merges, dead ancestry links, etc.) For instance: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Schwab-504 I don't usually remove the entire ancestry source, but modify it to remove repetitive information.(In GEDCOMs, the use of the term "ancestry.com" can be seen in some source citations about 6 times per citation! I don't think we need that much of a reminder. )

If I came upon a managed profile that needed some cleanup, I do believe I'd check out how active the PM is first. If not very active, I'd dive in. Every case is individual, though, so the approach isn't the same for me for every profile. Depends on the era of the profile, the way the ancestry citation is written, etc. 

by Natalie Trott G2G Astronaut (1.3m points)
+6 votes
Much of my research has been done using Ancestry's records, mainly because they have a better index. There have been many times that I've not been able to find a record on FamilySearch but easily found it on Ancestry, thanks to its user-contributed index alternatives. Most of my citations are to the Ancestry census.

I do understand why people are frustrated with Ancestry. I feel the same way about other pay sites. There's only so much room in my budget for subscriptions. It doesn't help that Ancestry's suggested citations are horrible. I always modify them to include enough information that anyone should easily be able to browse to the same page in the FS images.

Sometimes I'll do just that, look the same record up on FS, then enter that link at the end of the Ancestry citation as "May also be viewed at [https://blahblah FamilySearch]." Or if I'm working on a profile that has the FS census cited, I'll sometimes add a similar note linking to the Ancestry image, especially if it is a clearer image.

I would never remove one in favor of the other. For the profiles I manage, if someone comes along and does that, I reverse the edit, but add back in the link to FS as well.
by Joyce Rivette G2G6 Pilot (179k points)
+7 votes

Cherry, in answer to your question, I don't believe there was ever a specific official approval for Ancestry sources to be  REPLACED by FS instead of adding both.

There were instructions for correcting or noting a dead, broken or faulty link and other things from gedcom entries, but I don't remember those instructions saying anything about removing that link. As Nelda said they should remain and be moved to see also.

I'm curious about your meaning when you said "I know we want each source mentioned in a profile only once".  There can be multiple uses of a source in a profile, just as there can be multiple sources for the same fact. There is nothing wrong in having more than one source per fact.

I also agree with Gaile  there is something very wrong if the data doctors are instructing people to remove any valid and well cited source from a profile, no matter what the reason - period 

In my opinion the vitriol directed against Ancestry by many members here lately is alarming. There are many on-line sites, both pay and free which provide sources for research.  Ancestry is simply a repository for documents, books, and many images of records which are not available elsewhere. It is not good or bad, it simply houses records which can be accessed by the public, in the same way that a library is a repository. Some are behind a paywall and some are free. Using an Ancestry document for a source is no different than using one from Find my past, American Ancestors, a book in a library or in a private collection or any other location. The main thing is to cite the actual record properly so that anyone can see what it is and try to locate the reference themselves.

As Lindy said "Whether or not a source is accessible online or off, or via a free versus pay website, should be irrelevant". Sources should not be replaced simply because someone doesn't like where it was found or prefers to use a different source.
 

by Karen Raichle G2G6 Mach 8 (87.4k points)
+3 votes
Regarding your question: "Can we use multiple locations for Census Records?"

My answer is yes. However, that being said, it is my opinion that freely available sources should be listed before paid sources whenever they're available.

I see the wisdom in redundant sources. I do think that keeping multiple sources allows for failover, and also adds a level of convenience for users on those platforms.
by Olin Coles G2G6 Mach 2 (21.7k points)
edited by Olin Coles
Why replaced?
After giving this some thought, I see the wisdom in redundant sources. I do not think that we should replace one complete resource with another, simply because it is behind a pay wall. While I disagree that Ancestry.com will outlast FamilySearch.com, I do think that keeping multiple sources allows for failover, and also adds a level of convenience for users on those platforms.

I do not believe there is a need to remove or replace the Ancestry entry. The images are not always exactly the same.  Some are easier to read than others at the different sites.

As Paul said, there is a method to use an approved template to make the Ancestry image freely available. 

"In the Ancestry citation I include a free-to-view link to the image on Ancestry (using the method described in https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/792811/creating-a-free-to-view-image-link-from-ancestry-com) and also a link to the record (using the template on https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Links_to_Ancestry)".

It doesn't hurt anything to have both available. I think you might be surprised by the number of Wiki members who have an account with Ancestry. The percentage of members who are also Ancestry users might actually be a lot larger than thought.  Perhaps those users just aren't as vocal as the non-users.

It seems that you commented after I amended my answer. Apologies for that.

Regarding Ancestry.com, there is a difference between having an account (which I have), and being a premium member (which I am not).
I see your edit now and agree that there is room for both methods here. As you said, members may choose which platform or site they individually prefer to use. It isn't and doesn't need to be a one or the other choice, but rather a collaborative venture.

Yes, Ancestry does have several types of accounts, both free and pay.  There is also an Ancestry Library version available which is free to use.
+2 votes

I'm noticing the increasing use of transcriptions on FamilySearch with the message

Images Available

To view these images you must do one of the following:

It's annoying at the least, if not completely unproductive as in the case of one "Vinceno Sonkup", son of "Frank Sonkup" and "Elisabeth ...Lezal" for Vincenc Soukup whose mother's maiden name was Doležal.

I don't know how I would react if a source with access to the digitized picture of the source material would be replaced with the "free" FamilySearch source. And if this way of providing data on FamilySearch is a trend nothing should be replaced by it!

by Helmut Jungschaffer G2G6 Pilot (604k points)
Keep in mind that those limitations on FamilySearch are imposed by people outside of FamilySearch. That is, it is the original record holders that have placed limitations on what FamilySearch can do with the records. It isn't something FamilySearch wants to do but are legally bound to do.
Regardless of who is responsible for this type of publication it puts in question whether FamilySearch as a free site should be used to supplant access to a picture of the actual record on a paysite.
+5 votes

Anything you linked to Ancestry is unavailable to me and many others unless you take the time to "share" the image.  (Pretend you will share on Twitter or Facebook and copy that link).

That said, there should be only one citation for a given document, but it could easily have links to FamilySearch, Ancestry (if you must), or any other source of documentation.

To use Dina's example:

Edward Shute Household, 1870 U.S. Census, Clark County Illinois, Cumberland Township, Casey Post Office, National Archives micropublication M593, Page No. 34, accessible at [https://www.archives.gov/ www.Archives.gov] and [www. whatever Ancestry] and [https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M64N-CK6 FamilySearch].

I doubt that Family Search will be going away any time soon given that it has had a much longer life than Ancestry and is sponsored by the Mormons.  I believe it is much preferable if you want transparency.  The majority of the world has no access to Ancestry.

by Kathy Rabenstein G2G6 Pilot (320k points)
+2 votes
Ancestry also has FREE LINKS to many of it's images.

How to create free image views from Ancestry
https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/792811/creating-a-free-to-view-image-link-from-ancestry-com
by Louann Halpin G2G6 Mach 7 (71.2k points)
+3 votes
When I first started on WikiTree a couple of years ago, there was a G2G discussion (or maybe a mentor) very plainly saying never use paid subscription sources if there is a free one and replace all paid ones with free if you see one.  So for 2 years or so, I have been spending the time looking up every FS source for my ancestor profiles and replacing Ancestry sources.  Now two years later, people are being criticized for doing it.

According to Styles and Standards, WikiTree does not enforce a standard for evidence.  One group may think you should keep everything and the kitchen sink.  Others may think why should I keep a bunch of derivative information when I just added a primary source, it just makes the profile confusing.  So I may read one G2G thread and feel like I should never delete anything or I might read another and feel like I should clean out any non-primary sources if there is already a primary source.  

Who is correct?  Who decides?  My understanding after reading the honor code and styles and standards is that the person doing the editing decides and if the profile manager(s) disagrees, instead of just changing it back or complaining on G2G, they contact the person that made the edit and they discuss it together and come to a mutual decision.  They cooperate.
by Marcie Ruiz G2G6 Mach 5 (59.8k points)
Marcie, I apologize to you--and anyone else--who may have taken my comments to mean that you replacing the Ancestry.com with FamilySearch.org sources ON YOUR OWN PROFILES is in any way wrong or not in compliance with WikiTree policy. I've been doing exactly as you have--replacing Ancestry.com sources with FamilySearch.org sources ON MY OWN PROFILES when I could find the same record on FamilySearch.org.

My complaint was with those who replace valid sources ON OTHER PEOPLE'S PROFILES. I only suggested they should not be removed ON OTHER PEOPLE'S PROFILES, but the other source added, then the PM could decide whether to do the removal.

And before anyone jumps me saying I don't OWN my profiles, I'm well aware of that, but I am an ACTIVE PM who puts in HOURS of work on the profiles I create and that should be taken into account before someone comes in to make significant changes to the work I've done. I try my best to respect the work of others and I expect the same courtesy in return. I'm not a WikiTree rebel--I try to abide by all existing policies outlined within the Help Pages. You're right, Marcie, one of the things suggested in the Help Pages is to find the same source at a free site and replace it in your own profiles. I apologize again if my comments came across as any criticism of you or caused you confusion.

If, as Sheryl Moore said below, removal of valid sources (just because they are only available from a subscription site) is not what is being advocated by nor being done by Data Doctors then I am relieved that this was all a huge misunderstanding.
+5 votes
After reviewing the video for 831- Duplicate lines and the changes made, an Ancestry TREE was replaced with the FS Census RECORD.

There is a big difference of using Ancestry trees as a "source" as no family tree is considered to be a valid source and a census record is free on FS.  

This isn't a case of removing an Ancestry record and replacing it with a FS record; it was removing a tree reference and replacing it with a valid source from a free site that is available to all.  Most Ancestry links are not viewable from the links unless you have a paid subscription.

As far as the biographies shown in the videos, that is not the point of the video - it is working with the particular suggestion.  Biographies like the one shown in the 831 video are not shown to be the preferred method, but is how it was in the orphaned profile used as an example for the suggestion.

If the Ancestry census used was from the Ancestry records and used the approved Ancestry Record template on Wikitree, that would have been fine.  The point here is that a tree was replaced with a valid record from a free site in the appropriate manner.

Also, the 831 example had duplicates of the same reference and the duplicate was removed.

Those are the two valid reasons for removing info from profiles [1] a tree reference and [2] duplicate reference and replacing with valid sources.

I hope this helps explain the video and that it wasn't a paid site squabble.

If you review them again with this info, maybe it will be clear what is going on.
by Living Moore G2G6 Pilot (210k points)
reshown by Living Moore

I think if the sources being replaced had just been Ancestry trees then nobody would have had an issue with it. However in this case the first link being replaced contains "db=1850usfedcenancestry" and the second link being replaced contains "db=1860usfedcenancestry". Despite the fact that the links both start with "trees.ancestry.com", the links are in the format for linking to a record not a tree and the "db=" specifies the name of the record set being linked, with the names in this case being fairly self-explanatory. The "h=" parameter specifies which particular record in the set is being accessed. By contrast a link to a tree contains either t= or tree to specify the tree number and either p= or person to specify which person in that tree.

The voice-over for the video also refers to them as census reports, not trees, and the layout of the citation with a year, census place, page number and image number confirms what they are.

You mention that if the approved Ancestry Record template had been used then that would have been fine. The only parameters required by that template are the information after "db=" in the link and the information after "h=" in the link, so everything required to just change the links to use the template was already in the profile and that would perhaps have been an easier and less controversial solution.

I certainly have no issue with multiple copies of the same source being replaced by a single copy of the source being cited in multiple places, which is what suggestion 831 is all about. Adding the FamilySearch source as an additional source would also have been perfectly acceptable. However I really don't think we should be encouraging anybody to delete a valid link to a record just because it is not in a format that they recognise.

Absolutely; changing the reference used was not necessary to correct the issue of the same reference duplicated on several lines.

 In this case because US censuses are available as images on family search it does not in this case create a problem  (although it looks to me as if some  archival reference detail was in the original reference which is not in the new one. )The fact that the reference could easily be found means it wasn't such a bad reference. I would have preferred to see a better reference used in the replacement also. There is a post elswhere on this thread about this.

If this action was copied by data doctors working on a UK profile,  it would result in a non equivalent source (no images, only partial transcript, some details on the originals are not included. )
+3 votes

I will add my 2 cents, since I'm not really seeing anyone address this aspect.

Why do we add sources to begin with? It is to allow anyone else to come along and verify our sources for the data we claim.

How can someone verify our sources, if they have to go to a pay-for website (e.g. Ancestry.com), when a free alternative (e.g. FamilySearch.com) is available? By using a pay-for website, we are hindering others in being able to verify our sources. By using a free website, everyone has an equal opportunity to verify our sources.

This is why I agree that FamilySearch.com links should be preferred over Ancestry.com links.

Additionally, FamilySearch.com provides citations that are easy to copy and paste into anywhere. These citations includes links back to the page that it came from.

One person on here argued that these links are just to transcriptions, which can easily be wrong. Agreed. However, the FamilySearch website recently added the ability for anyone to fix the transcriptions. It's not available on everything yet, but it's growing. 

Another argument is that the FamilySearch citations only go to transcriptions and not a photocopy of the original document. There are many instances where the transcription also includes a link to the photocopy of the source material. Just look in the upper right corner, they will typically have a sizable thumbnail photo, where one can click on that and go to the original source.

Overall, I prefer FamilySearch because of all of these reasons. I don't have an account on Ancestry, and never will because it is a pay-for website. I cannot verify someone else's sources to the claims they make about the data, if all they have are Ancestry links. If the exact same data can be sourced elsewhere to a free site, then it is worth the time and effort to replace it. But it takes understanding the reason behind doing it.

by Eric Weddington G2G6 Pilot (520k points)
edited by Eric Weddington
I appreciate your bringing up this point. Thank you.

I would also point out many of these comments are made by WT members who are not involved in the Data Doct

Your argument suggests that a source is only valid if everyone can easily verify it.If such a criteria were used then you would not trust most academic books if the citations weren't of works and records easily  and freely accesible to you.

Wikitree would also contain even more unsourced profiles and leafless branches than it already does.

There is no free  site where you can see an image of any  British census. Family search has incomplete transcripts of them.  Similarly it has comparatively few sets of images online  of parish registers, I don't think it has any from Scotland. The indexes are a poor substitute ; information gaps as usually only names are included (they are after all only an index), inevitable errors of transcription, sometimes whole parishes missing, sometimes with the earlier indexes burials were not listed.

It has to give just a few examples: no British wills,  no criminal records, no poor law  or apprenticeship documents . It has a valuable library of secondary sources but cannot, for copyright reasons, supply recent editions of books and journals.

I couldn't research  the areas I research without paying for a subscription. I have access to Findmypast and some newspaper archives if I sign in via my University .Nevertheless, I pay  for an Ancestry subscription simply because it has more of the sets of records that I regularly use . If I were researching  Scottish ancestry then I would need to pay for access to Scotland's people. 

On a personal level, I've transcribed very many wills (PCC wills, Wiltshire wills and Dorset wills) and placed the transcripts here on wikitree. If you don't have an ancestry subscription or the willingness to pay for a copy of each individual will from the archive, you won't be able check them. (I have to say, some of the recent condemnation of the use of 'ancestry sources has made me consider finding another platform for them)

There are also vast numbers of records in National and local archives all over the world. Most will never be digitised . I spent  a long day recently working on one  16th century document at the National archives, I haven't finished and will have to return (requires a 3 hour each way journey ) At other times, I've researched at my local archives, closer.  Should I refrain from  adding my findings to wikitree because others can't check it from the convenience of their armchair at home? 

I think wikitree should be celebrating the fact that it has members who do subscribe to commercial sites and are willing to share their findings. It should also be actively harnessing the ability of its members to visit local archives in many parts of the world. Or do we just want a copycat version of the family search tree?

Eric, I still do not agree that a valid source citation, be it for a paid site or not, should ever be replaced. This is the contentious part of the subject at hand. If you can find a free alternative, by all means, add that as an additional citation. Don't ever replace another valid citation.

Hear, Hear! Helen, well said.
Voice of sanity as ever, Helen.

@ Sheryl, I am somewhat confused by your comment

"I would also point out many of these comments are made by WT members who are not involved in the Data Doct"

Work done by the Data Doctors can have an affect on all WT members.  Just as this work can affect each and every profile created here.  Are you saying that only members of the project should be able to make a point or have an opinion on the subject being discussed?

Thank you Helen for all the valuable work you are doing to add to WT profiles. Please continue to share that work here.  Thank you also for articulating so many excellent points in your post.
Karen,

I don't know what happened but it appears that at least 3 sentences were cut off as the comment ends in the middle of a word.

I will have to recreate what the rest of the comment was.
Whether we use a free or a paid website for sourcing, we should remember that we are only accessing digitized copies of the original hardcopy records.

Our citations should include the actual physical repositories of those original hardcopy records.

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