What did a carman do before there were cars?

Question

In 1870, Adolph was a carman - it says so in the census!  

In 1880 he was a laborer, if that's any help.  By the way, we're talking about a German immigrant who came to the United States in 1865 and lived in New York City from then until his death in 1893.  He is the 4g grandfather of my brand new great grandson, for whom I'm trying to get a more complete tree built.

Answer 1

If it is a similar occupation to a carman in England then it would cover anybody who drove any wheeled vehicle used for carrying goods, which before cars were invented would often be carts. There is an organisation for them in England which was founded over 500 years ago and is still around today - Worshipful Company of Carmen

Comments

I was about to mention this as they have an annual cart marking ceremony in London, mid July, which I happened on quite by chance and it's really well worth seeing - there are lots of historic vehicles both horse drawn and motor, all beautifully turned out.

https://www.briggsequipment.co.uk/News/2018/briggs-carries-on-tradition-having-its-cart-marked-by-the-worshipful-company-of-carmen/

I am old enough to remember that a car was a "motor car" in my childhood, i.e. to distinguish it from a horse drawn vehicle, as late as the 1950's! It was a "car" long before motors - Shakespeare, in Midsummer Night's Dream -

And Phoebus' car  Shall shine from far

Answer 2

Probably worked for a railroad.

Comments

Sounds reasonable, but what would a carman do?  Was he a conductor or a motorman or a coal shoveler or did he maybe clean the cars between trips or what?

---

I’ve seen it mostly with reference to railroads. I have several (New England) letters that refer to “taking the cars” when referring to traveling by rail - well before the automobile era.

Answer 3

A carman was usually someone who worked driving what would today be a delivery "van".  Often this was for the railroads, but sometimes it was for the mines (where he operated .. or controlled .. the ore wagons and their horses).

I have an ancestor who was a carman — if I could remember which I'd link him — and remember looking it up for him..

Comments

My first thought was mines, but I figured that's unreasonable, since he lived in New York City.

This delivery "van" … if it's not a railroad car then how could he be driving it before cars were invented?

---

Horse-drawn vehicles had drivers.  The term doesn't just mean motorised vehicles.

Also trams and trolleys were horse-drawn, requiring drivers.

---

I thought the horse drawn thingies were called wagons, carriages, maybe even sleighs … didn't know they called them cars.  Trolley cars is a familiar phrase, though - I rode on them when I was a kid in New York City, but of course their horsepower didn't come from horses then.  Tram is a horse of a different color (pardon the pun) - of course I've heard the word, but don't have any idea what it is, exactly.

---

Well, where I'm from we called them trams.  In the US they're trolley-cars.  The words can both mean the same thing, or describe two different, but similar, things.

From my word document (no idea where I got it, or to which ancestor or cousin it applies (seem to recall it was the son of someone)):

CARMAN: driver of horse-drawn vehicles for transporting goods, often employed by railway companies for local deliveries and collections of goods and parcels.  The equivalent of the modern-day van driver. A carman was also sometimes someone who drove horse-drawn trams (trolley cars). 

(I pick up notes all over the place when trying to find out stuff .. and memory says I found the occupation listed on a census, so looked it up as it was pre-1890.)

---

I just found this by doing a g-search:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/scene-of-the-crimes/2562-what-is-a-carman

I find the last post there rather helpful with its "In America, we don't know the term "carman." We would use "carter" or perhaps "teamster" (which survives today in the name of the union for truckers)." statement.

---

I guess this would be the simplest explanation: A tram, tramcar, or streetcar, is a vehicle used on a rail-based public transport system which runs primarily on streets; also used in mining. (From here.)

---

You've also got the jaunting car.

As for an answer to your question I think Kenneth has given a promising answer.

As for the etymology, cars will be much older than motorcars. My dictionary doesn't trace it further back than Old North French and Late Latin (carre and carra) - well, Caesar seems to have mentioned a four-wheeled carrus A car carries, of course. That word seems to be of about the same age. You also have carts and carriages. And I'm forgetting the Roman chariots. In Swedish we have kärra - which seems originally have been a two-wheeler.

Even if there are a number of different words my guess is that over time there have been more different models and uses than words

---

Car is an abbreviation of carriage. The horseless carriage is a relatively modern innovation.

Tim

Answer 4

He could have worked with street cars ... the original light rail.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_and_Harlem_Railroad

Comments

Neat article, George - THANX!  The only problem is that it says:

Horses initially pulled railway carriages, followed by a conversion to steam engines, then one to battery-powered Julien electric traction cars.

So … when it was horses doing the work, they called the vehicles "carriages" … they only called them cars when they were battery-powered, which I suspect wasn't happening in 1870.

Answer 5

Gaile, a carman was originally the local delivery man driving a wagon, carriage, etc.  Eventually this included trams, or light rail, when they were also horse-drawn.  All of us colonials have inherited the English term.  If you can determine what company Adolph worked for you'll know exactly what type of delivery he undertook.  They would have been quite skilled, as they had to control a horse-drawn vehicle in public with all the associated noise and movement.  The carman would also have responsible for grooming the horse and maintaining the carriage. I would assume that there was an equivalent German term for carman.

Answer 6

He worked on the train cars not on an automobile car.. so he could also have worked on any other thing they called a car.

Answer 7

It is a United States railroad occupation involving maintaining railroad cars.

Check this entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Railway_Carmen

It is still an active railroad related profession:

https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/working-at-csx/job-overviews/mechanical/carman/

Comments

Now that is the most definitive answer that I could possibly receive!  THANX ever so much Jill.

To everyone else who answered - especially Ken with a very close second best - THANX a million for the great education y'all have given me!!!

Answer 8

Most likely a transcription error for ( cartman ). I seethat often as an occupation.

Comments

It is probably not a transcription error.  Carman and cartman were two separate (even if related) occupations.

My great-grand was a carman, no t.  None of the family, so far, were cartmen.

---

The term carman is a derivative of cartman and mostly was used to describe the operator of a trolley, the motorman. The time frame in history would determine the use of the term.

---

The term carman predates motor anything.