Planning a complex split of a Domesday ancestor

+7 votes
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It seems pretty clear many of us have looked at this profile, seen it needs splitting into Stafford and Belvoir, and then put it off. It will be a bit complex but also we will all be thinking there might also be disagreements. So let's try to draft a plan:

1. Different proposed splits we can use:

a. Keats-Rohan's proposals in Domesday People pp.380-381.

b. Henry Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~henryproject/hproject/prov/godeh000.htm

c. Peter Stewart: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bobwolfe/gentxt/Origin_and_early_generations_of_the_Tosny_family.pdf

2. 

a. Keats-Rohan divided the father Roger [[Toeni-21]]: Roger the Spaniard is the father of Robert of Belvoir; Roger of Conches (actually another son of Roger the Spaniard) is father of Robert of Stafford.

b. Henry project makes Robert of Stafford the son of a single Roger. The webpage does not discuss Robert of Belvoir.

c. Peter Stewart also does not split Roger the father. He makes Robert of Stafford his son (like Henry project), but Robert of Belvoir becomes a nephew whose father's name is not known: "speculative placement of three children [Bertha who m. Laval, Robert of Belvoir, and Berengar Spina] who are recorded as siblings to each other, but who cannot be readily connected elsewhere".

3. Looking for any core of agreement. All 3 of the above sources see Roger of Stafford as the "main line" Toeny. The problem for all of them is how to explain Robert of Belvoir, and in fact all of them only offer speculations.

4. Proposal for now: start with the main line. Remove everything to do with Belvoir to a new profile for now. Make sense?

WikiTree profile: Robert de Stafford
in Policy and Style by Andrew Lancaster G2G6 Mach 8 (81.9k points)
edited by Andrew Lancaster

1 Answer

+2 votes

I definitely agree that the profile you have linked to, needs to be split into a profile for Robert of Belvoir and a different profile for Robert of Stafford.

There are a couple of other sources for Robert of Belvoir, an article about the Belvoir Cartulary with discussion and simplified genealogical table of his descendants and an article by Keats-Rohan, that Stewart Baldwin uses as a source in his article.

In regards to splitting the Roger 'the Spaniard' I note that Keats-Rohan in Domesday People p. 381 only states that the "elder Roger was possibly the father of Robert de Tosny, lord of Belvoir"

I'm more inclined to go with just one Roger de Tosny, and making the father of Robert of Belvoir unknown but either way we can explain in the biography about the alternative possibilities.

by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (370k points)
I think this is the same as my thinking. It would mean Robert of Belvoir might end up with NO parents. Do you agree? (Of course we can add text and links to show the published proposals.)
BTW I think I have all the relevant K-R articles (not just the one you mention). But mainly they are relevant to the connections to later generations? (Same also for the Belvoir cartulary commentaries.) Of course this makes them relevant for the Robert of Belvoir article, but for now the first question is whether this will be a new profile (I think yes), and whether it will have parents attached (I think not).
All the sources seem to agree that Robert of Belvoir had two siblings, and I haven't checked whether they have profiles on WikiTree already, or if there are plans to create them.

If they do or there are plans to create them, then we need a profile for the father (probably just an Unknown de Toeni with an explanation about possible relationships) otherwise WikiTree will automatically create one.

Yes, agreed. I think Peter Stewart's summary of the known siblings agrees with K-R.

Bertha, his sister, must have been the mother of [[Laval-5]], at least according to MedLands http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/mainnob.htm#_Toc4742615

His brother was named Berengar Spina. I doubt anyone has written more about him than what Stewart writes. There does not seem to be much to say. I don't think we have a profile.

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