William Tilton-82 not pre-1500

Question

There is no evidence that William TIlton-82 was born in 1450 as his profile claims. The only solid date associated with him is 1542/3, when he made his will.

So it seems to me that there is no reason for his profile to be considered pre-1500. If a pre-1500 person could edit his birthdate to remove the stricture, I could edit the rest of the profile, add sources, and detach impossible parents.

Comments

Most definitely is a pre-1500 profile.  If he was married in 1500 then he was born, at the latest, around 1484.

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No data to show when he was married.  Like the birthdate, this is "making stuff up"

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First kid was born 1488, probably married in 1487, certainly a pre-1500 profile.  But so far as it looks, the profile, the wife and all the kids are made up too?

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They aren't, those dates are.

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I've added the England tag to your post, perhaps the England project would like to take a look.

Answer 1

We have a person with sources who is willing to work on a profile in need. She has credible evidence that he was born in 1500. I'm in favor of removing his current DOB so that she can edit.

Comments

Excellent, thanks very much Stephanie.

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Lois, have you been in contact with the PM?

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Jo FItz-Henry has contacted the PM on behalf of the England Project.

I have exchanged comments with her.

Answer 2

But if he married Agnes in 1500, and had all those children (must be with an earlier wife) in the late 1400s, he still must be pre-1500, even if it's not 1450.

Comments

There is no reason to suppose he married Agnes in 1500. He did marry Agnes, but no date for that. Only for the will and the inventory.

So that date should be removed as well.

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Then what about the children? William in 1488, Elizabeth 1489, John 1490, and Annis 1491?  They would all point to a father born in at least 1472 (if age 16 at the birth of oldest child).

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Same thing. "Birth date is rough estimate", ie "making stuff up".

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The profile is clearly pre-1500.  If it is made up, that's a different story and you want to submit it to the Disproven Existence Project.

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William Tilton's existence is proven by his will. His birthdate is not. This means his profile is not "clearly" pre-1500, since the birthdate is based entirely on unproven, unsourced claims.

And based on such unproven, unsourced claims, the profile will remain erroneous and unsourced, a blot on Wikitree's claims of accuracy.

Answer 3

Very simple solution....Lois, what sources do you have for this man?

Comments

William Haslet Jones - William Tilton, His English Ancestors and some American descendants, Heritage 2000.

Jones cites the Leicestershire Record Office: LRO, 1542, #1. He reproduces both the will (21 Jan 1542/3) and the inventory (3 Feb 1542/3). Agnes Tilton executrix.

Will names brother Richard, sisters Alys and Agnes. Also children: Unborn?, William, John, Elizabeth.

Jones suggests unborn child may be Annis, which would make her birthdate 1543. That is, about fifty years later than the date given in the profile.

He also approximates William's birthdate as about 1500, which is more consistent with a child born in 1543 than supposing he was ninety years old.

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Using this source, (and so far lacking a primary source) then his birth should be ca. 1500. Lacking a concrete date with a primary source, I would leave the pre-1500 designation to protect him from bad edits until a more solid source can be found.

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The original will is to be found in Leicestershire Wills and Probate Records, 1500-1939 in FindMyPast (maybe at this link) which is free to access this weekend, but reading it is beyond me or beyond how much time I have to spend on this.  The inventory is possibly a couple of screens on but again impossible to read, unless you are practiced in reading that script.

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Jones transcribed both the will and inventory.

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Bobbie, that would effectively protect him from good edits, as well. It's highly unlikely that a more solid primary source than the will will be found. The data in the profile now is clearly bad, based on the will. It doesn't deserve protecting.

My edits would be:

Date of birth - Unknown

Parents - detached

Date of marriage - Unknown (she didn't get married in 1500 if she was pregnant in 1543)

Children - Dates of Birth Unknown.

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If the will is online, I believe a link should be added to the sources of the profile.

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I have just added it.  However, beyond this 'free weekend' that FindmyPast is running, it will be behind their paywall and only visible to those who have an FMP subscription.

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As John says, it's horrid writing ( and seems to use 'old fashioned' letters compared with PCC wills of the same period )  It also uses a lot of contractions so I doubt if I could get every word,

 I agree that 'It[em]  to the chylde that my wyfe goys [goes]  wyth'  means that Agnes was pregnant and thus not married in 1500.

It is also very unlikely that William would be fathering a child in his nineties
Added note to Agnes's profile, removed incorrect marriage date, note I put as full a ref as I could to the will but I accessed it via the Open University subscription so a link wouldn't work for anyone else

EDIT

One line, if i'm reading it correctly,  suggests that (son) William  Is is himself married with children.

''It[em] to Wyl'm Tylton [vis viijd ? (6s 8d)]  & to any one of hys chyldren xijd ''

If this is son William and not another relative then he was probably born at least 20 years earlier.

This would mean that Agnes herself, if she was the first and only wife was likely to be in her late thirties (born c 1515)

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Does anyone mind if I add Lois' synopsis of the source she's cited? That seems like a valuable addition to his profile.

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Once his birthdate is changed to Unknown, I could type in the relevant excerpts from the transcript of the will.

I assume it's now clear that the data from the Ancestry trees is not trustworthy, and his birthdate is NOT known to be 1450.

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Jones has son William Tilton b about 1520, with a son Thomas b 1540.

I hope no one would argue that William-82's father could be a Thomas John Tilton born 1389 and dying in 1412, decades if not quite a century before he was born.  Parents need to be detached.

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Yes, that works, I think my arithmetic was awry in my earlier post. (Sorry)

If  William was born c 1520 , he would be about 23  at the time of the will and of an age to be married with young children .If  Agnes was about 16  when she had William she would have been  about 38-9 at the time of the will so still likely to be able to have a child.

Answer 4

Lois

I've been watching this thread with interest. I will ask the current PM of this profile for co-management with the England Project, then any and all alterations to the profile (and immediate family) can be done under the oversight of the EP.

Jo

England Project Managed Profiles Team coordinator

Comments

Best solution yet, thanks Jo.

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I've transcribed the will here, so we can all see what it says.

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Many thanks to Nic!

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Fantastic job, Nic! Thank you ever so much for doing that.