Can a person be both MIA and KIA?

Question

I've been cleaning up top level Civil War (and other war) categories, moving profiles to individual units, etc, when the information is available.  I've come across several profiles that have both the KIA and the MIA sticker or categories. Is this the proper way? I thought it someone had been declared MIA, then they were not actually a KIA, but just a possible KIA.  

Are they both supposed to be used on one profile or is it one or the other?

Answer 1

Based upon my personal experience, I've seen this reflected on a handful of military individuals.

From what I can gather, this only happens when someone is initially deemed MIA (and searched for for) a certain period of time that, in the end, results in their being deemed as KIA.

I hope I had explained this okay via text... :-)

Good Luck!

~Brian Kerr

Comments

Yes, that makes sense.

I'm only wondering in a WikiTree sense, though. Seems that if the person is later declared KIA, then the MIA designation should go away.

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If, what I had explained is the case, then it's more of a choice that would be (technically) correct as this individual would have been deemed MIA and later was added as KIA due to the inability of locating this individual.

~Brian Kerr

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thanks!

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Even though the person has been legally declared Killed in Action, there is no body to bury in a military cemetery, or a family plot, thereby, maintaining that the person is still Missing.    I deal with families of the missing from World War II, and I can assure  you, that despite knowing that their loved one is legally KIA, the MIA status never goes away.  Unless they are fortunate to be one of the families of    those men whom DPAA has recently identified through DNA.   In my humble opinion, these men deserve to be recognized as both.  It's a sensitive issue among families who have Missing in Action loved ones.

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That a veteran was declared MIA on a certain date, then later declared KIA (on a different date) would be noteworthy in the Biography. There are a fair number of Viet Nam vets who were MIA until some unknown remains were found, and the lab at Pearl Harbor linked them up with the probably person.

I believe the actual term used by the military for persons who they think are dead but have no remains is Missing, presumed dead.

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Your correct regarding military personnel having both MIA & KIA placed in their personnel file. I was an Army Brigade G1 Staff Administrator who has been trained in this area.

It's sad when families have to cope with this and I would never state anything otherwise.

I was just answering the members question in a military point of view and would never state anything regarding the families that are afflicted with this horrible situation.

~Brian Kerr

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Thank you for your service , Brian!

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Thank you Barbara for your comment on this question. I have both MIA and KIA on my father’s profile, and you are right about this being a sensitive issue. I wrote that he was declared KIA after 6 months, but there were stories that he swam in the wrong direction of the life boat after the plane crash, and my grand aunt Nora refused to believe he was dead. As a small child, I was not sure if he was dead or alive.

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This is a common scenario with MIA families from WWII. I haven’t met one yet where the story was told that the mother always waited for her son to walk through the door. It’s heartbreaking.

That was why I mentioned the sensitive nature of this subject. Unless you’ve lived it, it can be difficult to understand that emotion.

I am often responsible for helping to find families of MIAs and when I have difficulty finding a living contact, I will set up a wikitree profile, providing as much ancestry as I can determine, then I add the sticker for MIA as well as KIA and comment in the bio regarding the circumstances. Both of those designations are important to my purpose. However, should a body be found and identified, I’d be the first to change the status and remove the MIA sticker.

I hope that you have been in contact with DPAA and donated DNA. If not, please private message me and I’ll send you that info.

Answer 2

In the lists from WWI, there is often written: "[Add a name] previously reported as MIA [then and then], is now reported as KIA:"

Comments

Thank you Jelena!

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Just a reminder that MIA/KIA are not worldwide concepts. I don't know how generic they are in English-speaking countries, but in other places the system may be quite different.

I suppose my great-grandfather was both MIA and KIA, as far as those concepts could be used in France. He was MIA ("disparu") and presumed dead, his body was never recovered, so declared "Mort pour la France" after the war. The case would be quite frequent for the WWI dead.

I guess I just wanted to point out that the ROH category system simply can't be used for all conflicts everywhere and everywhen. In particular, I suspect that for most non-English speaking countries, the shoe just won't fit.

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This is a valid point, Isabelle, and I thank you for bringing it up.

Answer 3

A large number of those listed as KIA are often first deemed as MIA. There is also use of PKIA (meaning "presumed killed in action") but many sources will simply list KIA when PKIA should have been used.

This is where sources get confusing, and it is important to review the chronological order of the sources. There was a Tail Gunner of the 546th Bombardment Squadron during WWII who was listed as: POW, MIA and KIA all on the same report (Missing Air Crew Report (MACR) 7885):

• MACR 7885 Primary - MIA
• MACR 7885 Report of Capture KU885A - POW
  "Meldung Über den Abschuß eines US-amerikanischen Flugzeuges"
• MACR 7885 Report of Capture KU2818 - KIA / MIA

The best part, is that this Tail Gunner survived until 2009 and could only qualify for POW / MIA status, even though he was listed as KIA on a primary source.

Comments

And I guess I didn't answer the question in all of that rambling...

Can a person be both MIA and KIA? Are they both supposed to be used on one profile or is it one or the other?

I would say that they can be both MIA and KIA (if KIA came about as a MIA designation) - aka presumed KIA.

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Thanks Steve!

Answer 4

Suggest not... If a profile was missing in action then presumably one does not know the eventual death outcome, and if one does know the outcome, then the profile is not missing in action.  Military types frown upon the loose use of KIA, especially where regiments maintain rolls of honour.

There are several potential outcomes from a MIA: Captured and interned then either released or died as a POW, killed in action, died in service, but remains never found, even desertion!  One should never presume or deem KIA...

Comments

Please.  It is not the profile that is MIA.  It was the person who was designated MIA.  We should be respecting their service and recognising them as something other than "a profile".  That's like calling prisoners only by their designated number.  It is done to remove their humanity.

By your reasoning, that once a death is determined, the MIA should be removed (or not applied), then a POW, once returned to either their unit or home, is no longer a POW and should not have that designation either.  This is something with which I strenuously disagree. 

At x time this soldier/airman/seaman was designated as Missing In Action.  If the manager of the profile honouring that person wishes to add a sticker for that designation, they should do so.  Later, if the MIA person is reported as a POW, then that sticker can be added to that part of the biography telling their story.  If the person is then later reported as deceased and the military of their day decree it a KIA situation, even if they are still a POW, then the KIA should be added if the profile manager so desires it.  Returned home and died of war related causes is not the same thing, so the person's profile would not get KIA.

Other than striking the 5 sticker limit, there is no reason those designations, and associated stickers, can not be added to a serving person's profile all at the same time — and they do not need to all cluster at the top of the profile as though that's the only place to put them.  They can be placed at the specific part of the biography that is telling the tale.

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Gosh!  Take my answer as you wish, but don't get emotional about it.  We are dealing in profiles of people here, you are working on a profile.  Point is, when a serviceman goes missing in action (MIA) that is the classification you are left with, the further outcome or cause of death is rarely known.  We do not make assumptions and there are unknown, different potential outcomes concerning demise of the missing person... if we did then we wouldn't be bothered with MIA.  My answer was merely a suggestion based on my experience and research with regimental rolls of honour.

Answer 5

Your point is certainly well taken. As a volunteer with the MIA Recovery Network, I would just like to mention a few things.  Please note that there is also an acronym, FOD, in dealing with World War I and World War II Missing.  That stands for Finding of Death, and in the case of the army, that date is one year and a day after the MIA date.  The airforce has its own way of determining the KIA date in cases of MIA's and I've yet to figure out a system. My husband's uncle has an official death date that is actually his FOD ,a year and a day after his MIA date.  Although this is the official record, in reality, he died a year and a day earlier. But all records list that FOD date as his date of death.

Now, in regards to your question.   Someone can still be missing and be listed as KIA.   In the European Theater, if a person physically witnessed the death of a soldier, and that soldier's body was never recovered, that person has a listing of KIA, because there was witness to the death.  (This doesn't happen in every case, but it is a frequent occurrence.)   But, that KIA is still missing, thereby, he is also MIA.

And, in reality, after the FOD was established through official investigations that lasted into 1952, then the soldier was officially considered to be KIA.   So, in reality, all of those who are listed as MIA have been determined to be killed in action as well.

If someone died in captivity and the body was never recovered, those men are also considered to be Killed in Action, despite having been prisoners, because they were in an official conflict area at the time of their death.  In Cabanatuan, for instance, there were mass burials of deaths due to dysentery. Many of the bodies were co-mingled when they were recovered, making it impossible,at the time, for individual identification. They are listed as MIA in addition to KIA, because even though authorities know that these men died, there is no body to send home to family.  But these men are buried as unknowns in a military cemetery since they have not been able to be officially identified.

I hope that this answers your question regarding the status of MIA in respect to KIA.

Comments

Thank you, Barbara, for that detailed explanation!

Answer 6

With today's DNA testing, several remains of unknowns have been linked with MIA persons. Their status changes from MIA to KIA.

Not sure how many of the bodies buried at Pearl Harbor were unknowns, or it some of them were listed as MIA after the Dec 7th attack, but I know they have been working through the burials from the USS Oklahoma, and have repatriated about 2 a month since they started the project.

Answer 7

Hi Nat,

Just my personal view, though you know categories still scare me lol,

Many of my great uncles are represented on the Menin Gate, in WW1 they were mainly MIA and KIA, men were drowning in mud never mind being shot, their families often recieved one letter followed straight with the next from the army, so maybe both are valid.

I like to think my remembered on the memorials of France and Flanders are maybe in the graves of the the unknown but so many died....

Answer 8

I believe something similar occurs in civilian life.  If a Missing Persons Report is filed, after some period the person is declared ‘legally’ dead, even when no body is found.  This allows a spouse to remarry, an estate to be settled, etc.

Answer 9

I have the perfect example for this question.  My father-in-law was in the Vietnam war. He was a Captain at the time he went over.  Plane was shot down, he was declared MIA, then after no finding of him was declared KIA. His widow & children were notified, by knock at the door, not only to tell them he was Dead, but to hand her his Promotion to Major the same day of his Declaration of Deceased by US Army. 8 months after a funeral/memorial (with no body) was done and over with.  One day there is a knock at the door, widow (my mother-in-law) opens the door and there stood her DEAD husband! She fainted!  They did end up finding him, brought him back, he'd been back a couple of months in the states being "cleared" to return home.  I think it was less than a year he was back at work on the military base, reading his bible by a lake on his lunch break, he suffered a massive coronary and died.  So Active duty He was MIA, KIA, and Died Active Duty...twice.

Answer 10

I'll add my 2 cents as a veteran myself.

If the soldier went MIA and the body was never found or identified, and the soldier was later presumed dead after that action (battle), then both MIA & KIA are appropriate. If the soldier was a POW, then that sticker would also be appropriate in combination with both of the others.

Side note:The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier symbolizes respect for all service men or women from all conflicts who fall within this designation.

Comments

Thank you John for adding your two cents. I appreciate your knowledgeable comment.

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Thank you, John. This is right in line with my comments. A military court of law decided if a person was KIA by evaluating the circumstances surrounding the events, taking in the testimony of eye witnesses, if there were any.

But regardless of the determination of KIA, if no body was recovered for identification, then that person continues to be MIA.

This criteria applies to US War dead. I have no idea what the procedure was for other countries.

Thanks for chiming in.