Incomplete location names

Question

There are probably three or four people on WikiTree who haven't yet figured out that my sense of humour is is so far off kilter that I don't even know what a kilter is. Whenever I see a profile with a location that is not carried out to the country name, I'm sorely tempted to complete the location incorrectly, partly just to be weird, partly as a not-so-subtle reminder to the person who created the profile that locations need to be completed right out to the country name, and partly just because I'm what Australians call a "stirrer". (If you've ever seen a great Australian flick about the Apollo XI moon landing called The Dish, the character of Mitch is pretty much me. Or would be, if I were an astrophysicist and knew how to play cricket.)

So far, I have resisted the temptation to change locations like "Paris" to "Paris, Texas, United States of America", or "London" to "London, Ontario, Canada", or "WA" to "Western Australia, Australia", although I have come across incomplete locations so frequently that I have been sorely tempted. (I could probably get a medal for resisting overwhelming temptation. At least as long as nobody brings up subjects like chocolate.)

So anyway, today, I was working through the Let others know what locations you are working on page, trying to make sure that there are at least five unconnected branches and two unconnected notables for each jurisdiction. For some places, like New York, there are so many unconnected branches listed that I've come to the conclusion that it must be hard to find sources for those places. For other places, especially places with small populations, unconnected branches are a little harder to find.

So anyway, I'm currently working on the state of Maine, and searching through Aleš's unconnected reports for branches with at least once person who was born in Maine. I thought I had a candidate branch when I found the profile for Oskar Goebel, who, according to his profile, was born in Frankfurt, Maine. The fact that he died in Berlin is a little confusing. But it's possible that he died in Berlin, Connecticut, or possibly Berlin, Massachusetts, or possibly Berlin, Ontario (since renamed to Kitchener), or possibly one of the three Berlins in Wisconsin. But since the rest of his family never seem to have left Germany, it seems more likely that he was actually born in Frankfurt am Main, Hesse, Germany.

Now, it's entirely possibly that the "Frankfurt, Maine" entry came about because somebody accidentally picked the wrong Frankfurt from the pop-up list, but I like to think that, somewhere out there, there's somebody else with a sense of humour every bit as subversive as mine.

Comments

Greg, as one who appreciates your sense of humor (and maybe goes above below and beyond your level), I can't resist pointing out that you missed the most likely Berlin - the one in New Hampshire that is very close to the Maine border.

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You're right, Greg, a city alone is pretty inadequate, although in a few cases such as Los Angeles, it seems self-evident.

We all have our own pet peeves, though.  I've seen complaints by people from outside the U.S. that state abbreviations are not always easy to understand.

My own gripes include when Ancestry and Find A Grave mindlessly plaster "United States of America" onto every memorial, even for seventeenth-century burials, or label records as being from Germany before that nation existed.

P.S.  Thanks for the laugh.

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How about these:

• Los Angeles, Willacy County, Texas, a census-designated place
• Los Angeles, La Salle County, Texas, an unincorporated community
• Los Ángeles, Catamarca, in Argentina
• Los Ángeles, Chile, the capital of the Chilean province of Bío Bío
• Bahía de los Ángeles a bay located along the east side of the Baja California Peninsula of Mexico
• Los Ángeles, South Caribbean Coast Autonomous Region, in Nicaragua
• Los Angeles, Bohol, a barangay in the Philippines
• Los Ángeles, Chiriquí, a corregimiento in Panama
• Los Ángeles, Los Santos, a corregimiento in Panama
• Cerro de los Ángeles, a hill in central Spain
• Los Ángeles, a neighborhood in Madrid, Spain
• Los Ángeles, a district in the canton of San Ramón, Costa Rica

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I was expecting that response.  Nevertheless, if no additional information is given, I think the presumption is that it is Los Angeles, California, which has a population of over 12 million and is one of the world's largest cities.

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Julie, I agree that we should not use abbreviations for states in the USA or Australia (or abbreviations for counties in the UK, provinces and territories in Canada, and so on). People need to bear in mind that a place name which seems obvious to them can be gibberish to somebody who doesn't live in the same place. 

(I also have gripes with people who use expressions like "the tri-cities", or "the North Shore". Even within the same country, there could be dozens or hundreds of places with the same nickname.)

In defence of Find A Grave, though, I do feel compelled to say that they're going by different standards than we are. I very much agree with WikiTree's policy of using placenames as they would have been used at the time of somebody's birth, death, marriage, or whatever, and wish that the big pay genealogy sites would use the same standard. But Find A Grave's policy is pretty much spelled out in its name: they're all about helping people find out where a grave is now. What it was called at the time the person died is -- to them -- irrelevant.

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Julie, one should think that Berlin alone should be equally obvious, being the largest city in Germany, albeit with only 3.8 million inhabitants, but given the number of Berlins in the USA alone and the heavy bias towards US participation in WikiTree, I'm not so sure that Berlin alone would necessarily suffice.

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Greg and Helmut,

Maybe some of my comments might be better made privately, if at all, but it wouldn't be the first time I have been somewhat indiscreet so here goes again.

FAG did not start using "United States of America" until after the 2016 election.  It seemed quite political and inappropriate.  Why shouldn't "USA" suffice?  Esthetically, the long string of words is unattractive and throws off the balance of a profile's appearance.  It surprises me how often people do not seem to give any thought to such things.

Helmut, you are right.  But I must say, the heavy bias toward U.S. participation in WikiTree (and maybe that's what you meant) isn't so much intentional as just a result of numbers and the facts of WikiTree's origin.  I often hear complaints that American do not travel as much as, say, Europeans, and have little appreciation of other cultures, but actually, if a Californian goes to Texas, that is a longer trip than a German going to London, and possibly more of a culture shock.  It is not our fault that we're a big country.  I think over time WikiTree can better accommodate the needs of other cultures--for example, as often expressed on G2G, the need for different name fields.  For many of us, myself included, we get more international exposure on WikiTree than anywhere else.  Hopefully in the long run it will make a difference.

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The question of whether it's acceptable to use shorter versions of the name "United States of America" (like "USA" or "United States" or "America") has been brought up multiple times in G2G. I understand the desire to use something punchier (or at least shorter), both from long habit of use, and from not wanting to have to type out 24 characters every single time you want to name the country. Unfortunately, none of the shorter versions works.

Specifically, "USA" can (and usually does) stand for "United States of America", but it can (and does) also stand for "Union of South Africa", and might also refer to:

• Usa, Kōchi, a town in Kochi Prefecture, Japan
• Usa, Ōita, a city in Ōita Prefecture, Japan
  • Usa District, Ōita, a former district in Ōita, Japan
• Usa, Russia, several rural localities in Russia
• Usa (Germany), a river in Germany

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If I said "Sacramento, California, USA," would anyone be confused?

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"Born in the U.S.A
I was born in the U.S.A
I was born in the U.S.A
Born in the U.S.A" Bruce Springsteen

I guess we'd never be able to figure out if  Bruce was talking about the  Union of South Africa or any of those other places because its not spelled out.....

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Just as an aside, the several places in Japan named Usa have an interesting history (unless what I learned is gossip, rather than fact).  After World War II, when the United States was working to rebuild Japan's economy, a lot of very inexpensive products, not very well made, from Japan were sold here and it became a running joke that the "Made in Japan" mark on something was a sign of poor quality.  Japan named a town Usa for the specific purpose of being able to legitimately stamp products from it's factory as "Made in Usa".  From Greg's comment, it looks like they did that for even more towns.

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Greg, a kilter is a cute Scottish 'skirt' for men.  

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A lovely question, brilliantly written, funny, charming.  More, please.

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Not me but then I've lived here most of my life.  

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"If I said "Sacramento, California, USA," would anyone be confused?"

Actually, I would be Julie.  Do you mean Sacramento County, California, USA, or do you mean Sacramento, Sacramento County, California, USA?  This goes for the majority of the 3000+ counties in the USA. (Note: Pet peeve - people who don't put the word county in place names, especially when it is ambiguous).

I 100% agree with you that writing out United States of America is esthetically unattractive and throws off the balance of a profile.  USA has already been said by Ales to one of the few acceptable abbreviations.

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Joe, I agree with you that not putting the word "county" in a location is annoying.  But that is the convention on Ancestry, and as far as I know, on WikiTree.

Just out of curiosity--I live in Sacramento County, outside the city limits, but my mailing address is Sacramento.  How would you write my location?

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It is not just ancestry.com, it is a peculiarity of genealogy.  It really goes back to the early days of computing, databases and gedcom files.  Back then, anything that could conserve computer memory was considered a good thing.  Remember Y2K, when the world was supposed to end because the 19 was left out of dates in databases to conserve 2 bits of memory space? So, the word county was left out of gedcom databases simply as a way of making the files smaller.

Still, it is not correct and often creates confusion.  It is certainly not a convention on wikitree; it is a left over of uploaded gedcom files.  This has been discussed many times on G2G, and the consensus is that the word county needs to added whenever a county is intended.

To answer your question, if you died at home... I would write in the data fields that you died in Sacramento County, California, USA, and in your biography I would note that you died at home just outside the city limits of Sacramento, Sacramento County, California.

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If your mailing address is Sacramento, then your location would still be Sacramento, Sacramento, California, United States.  If you lived just outside city limits in Carmichael, it would be Carmichael, Sacramento, California, United States.  The concensus on the G2G thread I read said that you only need to add county if you aren't adding the city name.  So Sacramento, Sacramento, California, United States vs. Sacramento County, California, United States.  This is what I have been doing.

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I would pretty much disagree with all of that Marcie.  Postal Codes (zip codes) and their associated Postal Names are not meant delineate boundaries of municipalities. They were created by the postal services solely for the purpose of delivering mail.  Postal Codes often contain areas well beyond any city boundary, may contain multiple cities, and may have a completely different name than the primary city it serves.  The entirety of the US is covered by Postal Codes, but most of the US is not inside of a city limit.  If Julie lives in an unincorporated area of Sacramento County, then that's where she lives.

While Sacramento, Sacramento, California is understandable, it is not correct.  While it may be obvious to you it, it may not be obvious to everyone around the world.  Genealogy is the only place where the word County is not routinely written out.  There are many thousands of examples on wikitree where the intended place is not clear because of this problem.  Why not spell the name correctly - Sacramento, Sacrament County, California?

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I'd have to respectfully disagree with you Joe and agree with Marcie.

ITEM #1: Within the autofill options in place (by our management) here at wikitree for Sacramento in California everyone is given 2 choices; either Sacramento, California, United States or Sacramento, Sacramento, California, United States. What folks like Marcie (and I) do is a 'personal choice' to go the extra step for clarity when we don't know a specific city and we go back and type in COUNTY for the first of those 2 choices (Sacramento COUNTY, California, United States). Thank you, Marcie, for giving the extra effort! If and when the wikitree leadership decides that something else is more appropriate, we'll see it in the choices they present.

ITEM #2: There are multiple variations one needs to be aware of. For example: 

--48 states use counties, Louisiana uses parishes, Alaska uses boroughs.

-- The District of Columbia and the independent cities of the states of Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, and Nevada are equivalent to counties for administrative purposes.

ITEM #3: Regardless of the variation, the standard pattern used in the overwhelming majority of situations and what I believe is generally understood by most people in this country is: Start with the most specific location, expand through to the most general (City, County/Parish/Borough, State, Country or sometimes Independent City, State, Country)  IF all the information is available to fill out those 4 or 3 data slots--no other information is necessary. We do NOT need to say Sacramento City, Sacramento County, California State, United States Country. It is only when a slot is not known that any additional input adds to clarity. I understand that this may be confusing to folks from other countries that use different methodologies......but the bottom line is that it is incumbent on each of us as researchers to either learn the standards & methods common in the area we're researching or to ask for help from someone who is familiar with it. I recently made a research detour to the Netherlands. I'm totally unfamiliar with that area. I asked here at G2G for help & review and received phenomenal support from the Dutch_Roots group (Thanks again, Y'all!). I did not presume that the Dutch location names/patterns should be modified so that I would better understand them.... 

I think well save "Township government is used in Indiana, Kansas, Michigan, Missouri, Minnesota, New Jersey, North Dakota, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Dakota and Wisconsin (in Wisconsin known as towns). The form is used in parts of Illinois and also in Nebraska, where they are sometimes referred to as precincts." for another discussion.

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Nick, the place name suggestions in the dropdown menus are not official wikitree policy.  They were not created by wikitree, they are not modified by wikitree, nor are they corrected by wikitree.  While being extremely useful, they have also been described here on wikitree as being problematic at best as they do not always fit the styles and conventions of wikitree.  The place names are actually from the FamilySearch.org database and borrowed for use by wikitree.  The LDS Church invented the gedcom file which, as I explained above, is the origination of the convention in genealogy of leaving out the word county simply to converse computer memory space. So, our place name suggestions originate from the exact same source as the gedcom files and are actually part of the problem.

I have already said that while Sacramento, Sacramento, California is understandable, it is not correct.  If I refer to Los Angeles, California everyone would assume I am referring to the city of Los Angeles.  If I wish to refer to something in Los Angeles County, there is no form of writing or speech where I could say Los Angeles, California and Los Angeles County would be understood.  This originally came up because Julie asked "If I said "Sacramento, California, USA," would anyone be confused?"  The answer is yes, it is completely ambiguous.  We still haven’t decided if she is referring to the city or the county.  I am not arguing that you need to say “City of” and “State of” as that is not the convention anywhere and is never a cause of confusion.  Using the word County is the correct usage everywhere (except the LDS database) and prevents a great deal of confusion.

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Joe, I understand your position but again respectfully disagree.

The reality (to me) is that BECAUSE those location names are in those drop downs--they ARE the de facto wikitree policy (regardless of what is written elsewhere or " if they fit the styles and conventions of wikitree") If wikitree wants something else--wikitree should provide something else. Until then, I will continue to use what has been provided. 

I'm just an uneducated country boy, but when I walk outside in the morning, look at the sky and my face gets wet---I don't need to call the weatherman to ask if it is raining. Likewise, when a name is in the 2nd slot of the 4 slot pattern (the one designated for counties), I don't need for you to tell me that is for the county. I'm not confused at all. It is 100% crystal clear what 1)Sacramento, 2)Sacramento, 3)California, 4)United States means.  

Again, if you know the city-the rest follows in the 'normal' pattern. If you don't know the city (or other specific location) you have a broken pattern;  1)BLANK 2)Sacramento County, 3)California, 4)United States. So adding the county 'should' clarify for all exactly what is being said.

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Nick, what could be wrong with adding the word "County"?  It IS more exact.  The drop-down menu says right on it, I think, that it doesn't have to be used.  I never even look at it.

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@ Nick .. just because it is clear to you does not mean it is clear to everyone else.  Not everyone is American.  Not everyone understands American placenames as given by FamilySearch.  Not even people who have lived in the USA for 20-plus years.

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But as Nick said earlier, if I have an ancestor that came from a country that I am unfamiliar with, I will need to look it up.  If I ever find where my ancestor came from in Germany, not only am I going to have to figure out how they named their locations, I will also have to figure out which country controlled the area at the time my ancestor lived there.  New Mexico didn't have counties before the 1850s.  Most people, most Americans, wouldn't know that without doing the research.

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Kilter != kilt.

Kilter means balance, so "off kilter" (or off-kilter) simply means not balanced, or out of harmony.

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Julie & Melanie, I hope y'all know that I have nothing but mad respect & appreciation for both of you! Melanie, if I ever stumble on any Aussie's, you will be the 1st person I ask for help with location names etc...

I'm going to beat this poor horse one more time & then let her go back to the pasture.  Julie, I disagree with the last part of your "what could be wrong with adding the word "County"?  It IS more exact.''  statement. It is only more exact if 'illogical redundancy' is how exactness is defined.

Imagine you have a boilerplate document in front of you. It looks something like this:

1. City of/City: Sacramento ,

2. County of/County: Sacramento ,

3. State of/State: California ,

4. Country of/Country:United States

How does adding redundancy to 25% of that form make it any more exact or accurate? 

1. City of/City: Sacramento ,

2. County of/County: Sacramento County ,

3. State of/State: California ,

4. Country of/Country:United States

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You're right, we're beating a dead horse, but sometimes redundancy is considered a good thing, and in any case, I was not talking about a form that says "city, county, state."  Often on Ancestry I find records that only list one location preceding the state, and it is not always clear whether it is a county or city.  When you look at the birth and death locations on a WikiTree profile, there is nothing that identifies which name is the county.  Those are the types of cases where I'd like to see the word "County" included (when applicable).

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The problem Nick is we are not filling out a database form where we are writing the name of the county in a county box.  This is where the error comes from actually.  We have a single field where county is not specified by the field we are filling out, as it is in your example.

The problem is not so much when a place name is given in three parts.  But, for example, we are told John Archer died Allen, Indiana - did he die in Allen County, Indiana or in Allen, Noble County, Indiana?  John McAllister was born and died in Los Angeles, California - was that Los Angeles County, California or Los Angeles, Los Angeles County, California.  There are literally thousands of similar errors on wikitree caused by the habit of not writing out the word county.  Again, why not write the place name correctly and avoid any potential confusion?

Answer 1

The profile was created by a relative of his with the birth location of Frankfurt/Main which is a common abbreviation for Frankfurt am Main in Germany. It was changed to Frankfurt, Maine, USA as part of a data error project. I hope it wasn't done deliberately. I don't think it is a good idea to change something that is incomplete to something that is incorrect. I must admit that when I first started adding relatives to Wikitree I didn't add countries because I naively didn't realise it was necessary.

Comments

Samantha, I'm sure it *was* done deliberately, although with good intentions.  There is no shortage of data doctors who blindly make changes that are suggested by the error list.  Several months ago, a profile that I manage for someone who died in Siberia got changed to Liberia, which was the specific correction provided on the error list.  We still have some members who go "click-click-click-more points for me" as quickly as they can, without looking at anything on the profile except the change they're making, which was handed to them on the error list.

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Great answer, Samantha.  Having lived in the area of Frankfurt am Main, I have often wrestled with auto correct.  No, I'm not German, just a military spouse.

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I salute you, Samantha, for taking the time to look up the facts.

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By coincidence I have just ordered an Ancestry DNA kit and the kit has been shipped from Frankfurt am Main!

Answer 2

The only incomplete name allowed is Camillus. I just did a search and there is only one in the GNIS name server, which includes multiple countries. GNIS Server

Great to be from a unique place!

Answer 3

I agree totally. The lazy people of the world are conspiring to take over Wikitree. I certainly would not to be born in "Massachusetts Bay" for fear of drowning in a body of water.

Comments

George that was what the area of and around Massachusetts was called first - before it was a colony and later a state - and it was not the United States of America back then at all yet

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One could argue that point all day long. The settlements had place names. There was a Massachusetts Colony on dry land. For the most part maps refer to the New England Colonies or British North America. For those in the rest of the world who may not know where Massachusetts is, it would be nice to see America tagged on the place name. America was in use in the mid 1500s. If we were to follow Wikitree's actual policy, we would be required to use the indigenous name.

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Perhaps Massachusetts Bay (Colony), North America would do it - idk, but I get frustrated by no country too - nice if there is at least a country - hate the ones with nothing at all

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I think it would, but there appears to be a few Wikitree diehards that refuse to use anything but Massachusetts Bay. There is still a large contingent of Wikitreers who have not evolved to understand Wikitree is now an international organization and one should accommodate that reality. I would never list East Quinan as the birth place of my wife's grandmother. How many people in the world would know where that is.

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Navarro, Massachusetts Bay is a body of water. It never was the name of a place on dry ground. There was a legal entity called "Massachusetts Bay Colony" during most of the 17th century. It was succeeded in 1693 by a legal entity called "Province of Massachusetts Bay," parts of which were included in other entities prior to 1693 (and parts of which are not in modern Massachusetts). If we are going to go to the trouble of determining which entity a particular "Massachusetts" place was in at the time of a particular event, we should go to the trouble of providing the full name of the entity, rather than suggesting that our ancestors lived in the water.

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George, Exactly! 

Missy 

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I know several young people who were in fact born at the time of the bathtub birthing craze so in the water - and I do in fact have an ancestor who got the name Van der Zee because he was born on a ship heading out for North America - so it is possible BUT kidding aside I do see your point - my thought was that those in a hurry with many profiles to enter, or perhaps thinking the whole place name would be too long may have been the reason for the short cut - at least there was something in the place field - the ones with nothing at all are really frustrating to me, and I am pretty sure most of my accidental duplicates are due to not seeing the person as the same one due to no clue where they were

Answer 4

As a fellow Aussie, I too can be a bit of a stirrer, or larrikan :-D

Good to see the Aussie sense of humor strong on wikitree... I have been tempted myself to put Perth, Scotland, when Perth is only listed in location field instead of Perth, Western Australia, Australia. Although it seems long winded and a hassle to write out completely like that, it actually is necessary.

Germany is particularly difficult though.

Comments

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There’s a Perth in Ontario too. Sigh.

You’ll be pleased to know that I recently went through all profiles that end in “Perth” and expanded them all, except for a handful I couldn’t resolve. And the green-locked privacy ones. New ones keep creeping in via imports though.

I also expanded all examples of Perth, WA so that country level queries can actually pick these profiles up. It was boring work.

I did the same for anything ending in SA – is it South Australia or South Africa? Doesn’t help there’s an Adelaide in both of them, amongst other duplicate place names.

Answer 5

Love the post, Greg. And can I just add that as a connector, I use WikiTree 'Find' and 'Search' all the time, with the birth location filled in. With rarer LNAB's I enter just the state or county, but when trying to connect the more common surnames I have to use town or village. So making sure they are completed in full and have the correct spelling is important as well.

Comments

Everytime I enter a spouse with a rare surname I do this too, as every now and then I get to connect them to their parents.

Consistently and fully spelled out states and countries really helps with this.

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I do that as well Mark. Every profile that I create with a rare surname gets checked.

Did you know that Aleš has created a WikiTree+ report for spell checking place names? I recently corrected all the spellings of Sussex (my English county), including changing all the occurrences of SSX, which is the recognised abbreviation. Having done this, there was quite a rise in unsourced, unconnected and suggestions the following week, but they are slowly being looked at. At least now I know that if I search for a surname in 'Sussex', then I'll find them all.

Here's the report link, I chose Massachusetts as an example, just to show how many different spellings a difficult place name could generate. As well as the correct spelling, there are 19 variations.

Report for Massachusetts

 

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And recently I ran across some misspellings of Massachusetts that don't appear on that list!

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Hi Carol, I use the spelling tool a fair bit. Woolloongabba, Murwillumbah and Toowoomba are just a few Australian examples I've worked on.

Answer 6

"I don't even know what a kilter is" Uh... I'm a kilter! Macneil Ancient and Robertson Red. 

Answer 7

Thanks for putting a humorous spin on your complaint. When I am working through my Washington,  United States lists,  I find myself getting tweaked with the “WA” listings that should be Western Australia, Australia. I hadn’t realized that Aussies were suffering from the Washingtonians who carelessly leave off the country.  Thanks for giving me new perspective.

Answer 8

This is a subject that I have been thinking a lot about too! Thank you for sharing your thoughts about this here!  I do add the missing county and/or United States (where applicable). I believe I am improving the profile plus making it easier for people in the future who try to research the person. I do, of course, research each one to make sure they are correct. 

Missy 

Comments

Beware of stirring the politics of certain countries by being too correct about place names. Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom is likely to raise a few hackles and in some quarters, Glasgow, United Kingdom is an invitation to physical violence! For this reason (and the possibility that it might not be around for much longer) I always omit United Kingdom from any of the four countries. The English, Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish don't see any reason to compete as a single entity in football so why should we foist an additional, rather cumbersome place name on top of the perfectly adequate ones we already have.

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Derek, good point. Personally, I am not a fan of using United Kingdom. I leave it on the profile if it is there already and it is during the correct time period. I will not add United Kingdom to a profile even if it is in the correct time period.

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... and I haven't even started on the problems of Derry/Londonderry where whichever you choose, you will upset 50% of the people who live there simply by use of one or the other!