Elvis Presley -- Native American Ancestry?

Question

It's come to the attention of the Native Americans project that there is disagreement about the Native American origins of Elvis Presley.  His profile is still connected to at least two supposed Native Americans.   

What will it take to confirm or debunk this ancestry? Is the lineage correct but the claims about his ancestors' heritage incorrect? Or is there a place in his line that needs disconnecting?

I bet a number of folks would be interested in improving the sourcing in this line. Can you help? Thanks!

Comments

Forgot to add: the controversial line goes back from his mother on the Manscill/Mansell branch.

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None of the people listed in the genealogy for Elvis' mother have any connection to the Cherokee.  No one lived with or near the Cherokee. There is no one named "White" or "Mansell/Mancill" on the 1835 Cherokee census.There does not appear to be documentation for any marriage for William Mansell/Manscill, the ancestor with the supposed Cherokee wife. He died in 1842.  He is found on the 1840 census in Marion County, Alabama with a wife and children, all listed as white. "Mourning White" if she existed, was a white woman.  No one in this family appears on the Siler/Chapman rolls from 1851 of Cherokee East of the Mississippi and it does not appear that anyone in this family applied for a share of the Eastern Cherokee payment in 1907.  Both the 1851 and 1907 rolls involved money, so people were quite eager to sign up and get their share.

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Citizenship in any of the three Cherokee tribes requires direct descent from a person on a specific roll (which varies by tribe) so there is no way Elvis would have qualified as a Cherokee citizen.  The Cherokee Nation does recognize Cherokee descendants who can trace their family back to someone on the 1835 Cherokee census, the first comprehensive listing of Cherokee citizens.   If one of Elvis' direct ancestors could be found on this census, then he would be considered a Cherokee descendant.  However, none of his ancestors appears on that census.

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I was contacted by a descendant who says that his family legend includes the story that William Manscill (var. spellings) went up from Alabama to Tennessee and it was there that he found/connected with/brought back Mo[u]rning Dove, supporting the Cherokee identity. But he also admitted that his DNA includes no NA markers, so he doubts the NA origins story.

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That's not correct; one is not a member of a specific tribe unless the tribal council says so (which means in most cases that one has verifiable ancestors on the tribal rolls of the 19th century and meets specific rules regarding blood quantum); that does not speak to the question of Native American ancestry which one can have without being a member of a specific tribe.

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The descendants of John Rolfe and Pocahontas have Native American ancestry (so diluted after however many generations as to not constitute Native American ethnicity, which is a different thing again from tribal membership).

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I have Native American ancestors but I am Cherokee because I am a citizen of Cherokee Nation.  I qualify for that citizenship - which is not about race or ethnicity - because I can document myself back to a person on the correct Dawes Roll.  

The question that was asked had nothing to do with Elvis being a citizen of a Native American nation, but whether or not one of his long-ago ancestors was a Native American.   Pocahontas’ descendants are neither Native American nor Powhatan Indians, they are descendants of those people. Anyone who claims to have a Native American ancestor needs to document their connection just as they would document descent from any other person,

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Susan, there are likely more than the two types you mention. By virtue of the Tilly Hardwick Act in California some of the natives became official tribal members because of where they lived on a specific date. Some were in settlements that had members of several unrelated families and yet all were designated as the same ʻtribeʻ. Thus brothers might not be considered tribal members of the same tribe.

My only point is that Native American is not as simple as whether there is blood quantum (different levels for different groups), family lore, a long documented line of descent, or being "on the rolls". America is a big, vast space and there were far more tribes and subgroups than we can imagine.

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Kathie has offered sound reason for why Elvis' ancestors were not Cherokee.  But I'm not sure we have ruled out that they were not from another Native American tribe.  

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The first thing that needs to happen is for someone to document who Elvis’ ancestor actually was.  People don’t seem to even know her names, where she was born, where she lived, or where and when she was married.  The information on her husband before he shows up in Alabama is pretty sketchy, too, largely unsupported by documents.  People are recycling Internet trees and myths.  Where did her name originate?  The earliest mention I have found is a c.1900 biographical sketch of a grandson, listing his mother as Morning D. Mansell, her parents as William and Morning (White) Mansell.

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Thank you, Kathie, for trying to keep the focus on the original question.

Thanks, too, for finding the earliest sources -- however derivative -- of her name. I had been unsuccessful in my own efforts.

A descendant who contacted me privately mentioned the existence of a [white?] Dove family in the early census records in the same vicinity of the Mansells.

There is also confusion about another wife Elender (some sites say Elender Jane Egar) but I see conflicting claims about which Mansell she was wife of.  I think she's currently attached as a second wife of William but one of his duplicate profiles that also has Morning Dove.

And there were apparently two William Mansells in two different Alabama counties.  I'm having trouble figuring out which was which.  So part of the problem with this line is that the Mansell branches are themselves a mess , totally separate from the Native American claims. I feel like I've opened a can of worms and wish a Mansell descendant / researcher would join our efforts.

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The folks in Marion County from 1840 onward are Elvis’ ancestors, but where they were before that is unclear.  Marion County is in the northwest part of the state, on what is now the Mississippi border, created from Chickasaw lands in 1818.  Another William Mansell/Mancill family lived in Pike County, on the Georgia border, and a third in the southernmost part of Alabama, hundreds of miles away.  

The Marion County William might be the same man who appears in Franklin County, TN in 1820, age 26-45, wife age 16-25, two children, a son and daughter, under age 10. In 1840 Marion County, AL, “W Mansel” age 40-49, wife age 30-39, two sons, two daughters all under 14.  A “W.C. Mansel” family, headed by a man age 20-29 is also living in Marion County.

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I haven’t found William  in any Horseshoe Bend (1814)military records to support the claim that he was in that battle, but many young men from Franklin County also went with Andrew Jackson in the campaign against the Florida Indians. That might be another place to research to confirm or refute that the Franklin and Marion County men were the same.

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And I thought I had issues with finding correct sources for some of my family profiles, lol!  One would think info on Elvis and his lineage would be prevalent!  Then again making sure records are factual is a long, and sometimes frustrating task...good luck Jillaine!

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Found this:

https://www.voanews.com/archive/southern-genealogy-yields-surprises

I don't like the leaps in conclusions it makes while at the same time questioning the various claims. 

I'm yet to be convinced of ANY of the Native American ancestry claims. I'm also so very surprised that no solid Genealogical research has been done on this very very famous man. 

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I have checked all but one of the references on Wikipedia that "support" the Native American ancestry.  NONE of them cite their source.  I'm surprised that the Wikipedia editors have allowed such crummy references on such a highly visible and trafficked profile. 

The one reference I haven't checked. Elaine Dundy 's 1985 book. I found a cheap used copy and ordered it. 

By the way, I've opened a separate thread to focus on William Mansell/Manscil. https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/982332/elvis-ancestry-who-were-the-parents-of-john-mansell

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Elijah Isaacks aka Cherokee Indian aka Cherokee Man White White/ Presley -Relationships List

mfranks816

5th–8th cousin

8 cM across 1 segments

Half 5th cousin 1x removed

View relationship

JP

Jessica Palmer

5th–8th cousin

8 cM across 1 segments

Half 6th cousin

88

View relationship

Elaine Presley

You

Elijah Isaacks aka Cherokee Indian aka Cherokee Man White White/ Presley is your 5th great-grandfather

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I can answer all your questions, just give me a list.

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RICHARD RICE MANSELL

William Mansell

Mourning Flowers White, Mother

Edward Green Mancill, son of mourning

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Is there anyone familiar with DNA sourcing who can explain to Elaine what's needed here please ?

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The William Mansell who was the son of Richard Mansell was born in JacksonCounty, TN about 1812, married a woman named Arena Carr in 1834, moved to Illinois and lived there until he died in 1876  Not the William connected to Elvis.  He is Mansell-90 on Wikitree.

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Hello Elaine,

Which DNA testing company is showing your match with Elijah Isaacks and Jessica Palmer?  Are Elijah or Jessica in WikiTree?  Who are their ancestors back to the shared ancestor(s) you have with them?

Thank you and sincerely, Peter

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Elaine

The DNA segment matches you suggest are quite small and need to 'triangulate' to confirm they are coming from the same ancestor.  Can you tell us which chromosomes they match on and the segment position?  

For relationships beyond 3rd cousins, you need at least 3 descendants (from different descent lines) to all overlap in the same location on the same chromosome to confirm the relationship, referred to as triangulation.  The overlap needs to be at least 7cMs.  

Ideally the individual segments would have been 'walked back' from closer cousin matches to ensure that 'triangulated' segment for each of the testers is confirmed up the right ancestral line for each of them.

Refer https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Triangulation

Veronica

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Dear Veronica,

I realize that now,  I am just learning the rules. Thank you for assisting me. 

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I’ve just came across this interesting site while doing some research a wow is there some very interesting stories a new names to search. I do no that my father is 7th cousin to Elvis a some of our roots to where everyone came from an also pictures a names of our native roots a where they were from. This page is amazing

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Elvis has no Native American ancestry, complete fiction.

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He may not but I have Native American roots from my father side

Answer 1

I have not found any evidence that Elvis has Native American. We share the same 5th Great Grandfather, Christopher Overton Harris, through my Mother (Music)

Answer 2

I and Lisa Marie, have Cherokee heritage DNA, in contact with many Cherokee Cousins, it's true, Elvis is Cherokee.

Comments

We look forward to seeing documentation that confirms this.  Thanks.

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Sorry, but “Elvis as Cherokee” is a myth.  None of his ancestors appears in any Cherokee record.

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DNA facts overrule myths.

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I shall certainly work on this, Ma'am,  an important task for our family, to keep the records correct.

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No DNA test can identify a specific Native American tribe in the United States.  A documented paper trail to a person who is documented as a Cherokee is the only way to make that connection.

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True and is why we based the valuation of our heritage on DNA, records, locations, family, history. We realize no DNA can determine Native American yet, simply is not enough data.

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Where is the documentation?  Records that seem to be for the William Mansell who died in Marion, Alabama in 1842  place in him Franklin County, Tennessee in 1820 with a wife and two children, all white.  Franklin is in what was then called Western Tennessee, on the Alabama border, 100 miles from the Cherokee Nation.  There is also no record of William Mansell in any unit at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend - Tennessee, U.S., or Cherokee.  I also cannot find him in the available Tennessee State Militia muster rolls 1812-1836. He next appears on the 1840 census in Marion, Alabama with six children and possibly a second wife (the age on the census is too young to be the 1820 woman), although the age might just be an error.

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I am working on this for you, Ma'am.

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I have searched for a roll number on this woman (Morning Dove) for years. Can someone point me in the right direction? Also, I've been trying to find more information about Bobby Wren. I'm not a researcher, I'm direct lineage. Thanks.

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There is no evidence that anyone named “Morning Dove” ever existed or that any of Elvis’ actual ancestors had any Cherokee or other Native American connection.

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M. Ayers, see https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/White-7956

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Hello Everyone, I come and live in the Netherlands. I make family trees. As a kid of 11 years old i am big fan of Elvis Presley. I have a very nice pedigree of Elvis. It's true Elvis has ancestry from Cherokee, from the Mansell family, these ancestors come from England, from Royal people of Wales. The name Presley was continued by Rosella, Rosella descends from here ancestors in Germany. The Cherokee tribe had for the elderly from wealthy Englishmen. The King name gave him honor from all his ancestors and not just from his music. They were royal people from ancient times.I've been working on it for a very long time, but folks there are lot of mistakes made on the internet. You have to look closely at the real names. Like Morning Dove(you spell it differently) I'm still very far into the Cherokee tribes . I keep it to myself, only if Lisa Marie wants it then I give het that family tree out of respect from her father. And her entire ancestors family tree that goes back to year 1200. But it's true Elvis has with Lisa and her children a Cherokee tribe from Morning Dove( real well written name I keep to myself) I Love The King always on my mind. The whole document is for my self.

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The problem with your claim is there is no evidence, other than your word, that what you say is true. W/T needs evidence. Documents. That's what this entire discussion is about. What evidence exists to prove she was Native American, much less Cherokee?

In this thread alone, claims have been made that Elvis has Cherokee, Creek, Tuscarora, and Wicocomico ancestry. That alone proves that the matter is not settled.

If you have evidence that proves his Native American ancestry and you keep it to yourself, then it is not evidence. The only evidence worth trusting is what we can see with our own eyes and confirm its authenticity.

Answer 3

Jilliane

Roberta Estes has a number of blog posts that may help with identifying Native American ancestry via DNA-

* https://nativeheritageproject.com/author/robertajestes/

* https://dna-explained.com/2019/08/29/native-american-minority-ancestors-identified-using-dnapainter-plus-ethnicity-segments/

* https://dna-explained.com/2017/11/01/native-american-dna-resources/

Veronica

Comments

Thanks, Veronica. I wish I had the time and mental bandwidth to get my head around DNA, but I long ago chose to leave DNA genealogy research and sourcing to others.  I appreciate that there are folks like you who I can turn to for help.

Answer 4

In https://www.quora.com/To-Sam-Morningstar-Have-you-ever-investigated-a-non-tribal-Americans-claim-of-Native-heritage-and-found-it-to-actually-have-a-kernel-of-truth/answer/Sam-Morningstar, Sam Morningstar, a Native American that has debunked many Native American ancestry claims, says that there's very strong evidence that Morning Dove White was, indeed, Native American. However, she couldn't have been Cherokee and was more likely Creek.

Comments

Unfortunately, the author cites absolutely nothing to support the statement that Elvis' ancestress was Native American. He doesn't even say what evidence exists.

Sorry, Paulo, I found that article very disappointing-- it shed absolutely no new light on our dilemma here.

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Thing is, Sam Morningstar has debunked several Native American ancestry claims and is skeptical of such stories. However, he finds this one case very likely. Here's an article on this, BTW, https://www.voanews.com/archive/southern-genealogy-yields-surprises. It also concludes that she was a Native American but more likely Creek.

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I've seen copies or variations of that same article. Again, no sources. And little discussion of the evidence. It starts from the premise that William Mansell partnered/had children with a Native American. This is the premise that we seek to find evidence of.

Julian Riley's book appears only available through amazon. It's not in any library, nor submitted to the Library of Congress. Unless one wants to spend over $50 for it, there's no way to check its sources.

Answer 5

Hi Ya'll,

I'm not even sure I want to jump into the middle of this but (selfishly) any research done could help me jump a brick wall I've looked at for years. (My 4th g-grandmother's name maybe?) 

No one seems to have brought up the subject, but there's evidence that Elvis may have had Tuscarora ancestry. I have an extensive DNA database of the descendants of my 4th g-grandfather [Dunning Casiah|Casiah-2] (bc 1729) and several of his siblings, plus my family and other members of the Tuscarora and Lumbee Tribes. 

I descend from Dunning Casiah's daughter [Elizabeth Casiah|Casiah-28] b 1787, who married Enoch Smith in Rowan Co. NC in 1805. She appears to have been living with Charles Presley and Mary "Polly" Casiah Presley in Rowan Co. at the time, as both of her parents died by 1800. 

I match a descendant of [Charles Presley|Presley-363] & Mary "Polly" Casiah, and a descendant of [John Presley|Presley-353]'s. Charles and John were both sons of Andrew Presley. The Casiahs and the Presleys were next neighbours in Camden, Kershaw/ Lancaster Co. SC. 

John married Elizabeth Hall in 1779, but there is suspicion that he 1st married one of the Casiah daughters - possibly Nancy or Margaret - and that [Dunning John Presley|Presley-3 ] was the child of that marriage. Otherwise, there should be no reason I would match his descendants.  

I will say as a caveat that the segment matches are between people who are 12 generations apart, so they are not large. Looking at Gedmatch's 'Q' segments for the descendant of Dunning John Presley's they range from 26 to 40. I'd like to analyze all of that data again but my Tier 1 sub has run out and I messed up my Paypal account.  I will do the analysis as soon as I'm able to get Paypal working again. I'm also willing to post the results of this analysis, with images, once I get my Tier 1 issues straightened out. 

On my spreadsheet, all my Presley descendant matches fall into runs of much larger segment matches of more recent relatives in the same family. I began doing  genealogy in 1971, and my documentation on this line extends from my father's generation back to before the Tuscarora assumed European-style surnames. 

I work with genetics as part of my job as director of a non-profit which supports and advocates for people with a group of ultra-rare genetic disorders, and I've worked with genetics teams from Harvard, Howard Hughes, and Ulm (Germany), so I'm fluent in medical genetics, which has been a great help. 

While analyzing the results of DNA tests done at our family reunion in 2016 I found a segment pattern unique to descendants of one man who lived appx 1630 - 1700. He was foundational to today's Tuscarora Nation. There was a population bottleneck in the early and mid-1700s caused by war, European diseases, and aggressive slave-raiding, so about 50% of today's Tuscarora share one male ancestor and one, or both, of his two wives. This segment persists for appx six-seven generations before disappearing. I haven't found it in *anyone* who does not have Tuscarora ancestry. There are several other places on the genome where identical segments of shared Native DNA can be seen, but this one segment is unique to all his descendants to the sixth generation. 

Both the Presley descendants I match have it. With Charles and Polly's descendants it is almost certainly because Polly passed it on. But there is no reason John Presley's descendants would have it unless he married a daughter of Dunning Casiah and Dunning John Presley Sr. was her son. If that is true then Elvis inherited Native American ancestry through that line. 

DNA aside, it would be very helpful if we could locate a marriage record or any documentation referring to that marriage. I am in Canada and have no access to records that are not online. The American cousins I worked with for 40+ years have all passed away. 

Is there anyone willing to tackle marriage records for SC for the period? (1778-1785)  Assuming there are any!  The last name, Casiah, can be spelled almost any way. Our research group found 45 different spellings of it since they appear to have adopted the Skarù·ręʔ word for "my nuclear family" (Kčę’heh) as a surname in the 1740s and there's simply is no way to render the Skarù·ręʔ pronunciation into English. 

Happy rooting, or as we say in Skarù·ręʔ 

Oneh - I go

Deb 

Comments

The FREE site www.familysearch.org lists (UNDER ID: L64M-357 and there maybe multiple listings for Elvis) Elvis' Great X4 Grandfather Andrew Presley marrying an Elizabeth Caroline Casiah in 1791 in South Carolina. Robb

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Hi Robb,

Thank you! I can't find that reference under any search parameter, but the information is inaccurate, as far as I can determine. The pivot I'm looking at is the marriage of John Presley [Presley-353]  bc 1748, who is said to have married Elizabeth Jane Hall. 

The Presleys and the Caziahs were next neighbours, and Andrew Presley's son Charles married Dunning Caziah's daughter Mary "Polly" Caziah. My 3rd g-grandmother Elizabeth Caziah (b 1787) appears to have been living with Charles and Mary "Polly" after her parents both died by the time she was 12-13. 

So, it's clear that John's wife Elizabeth Hall was not a Caziah, but it's also quite possible she may have been his second wife, and that his 1st son, Dunning, was the child of a 1st wife, almost certainly a Caziah (probably Nancy), because those of us who descend from Dunning Caziah have DNA matches with numerous descendants of Dunning Presley Sr.  

I'm not into proving a link to the 'King of Rock and Roll', I'm trying to identify Dunning *Caziah's* wife - they are my 4th g-grandparents, and the wife of their grandson Lawson Henderson Smith, a Priscilla b 1811, probably in SC. I'm working it from every direction.  

Happy Rooting!

Deb Cavel [Cavel-3]

   

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Nyá·wę čwé·?n ahskę·nę hęh Elaine,

Translated: Hi, how are you? 

The segment I share through all four of my grandparents  connecting me to that one foundational Tuscarora ancestor (b about 1620) indicates that he was *African*, born in the area of today's Ethiopia. For some history see the Wiki profile of my 3x g-grandfather: https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Shave-115&public=1 

You don't descend from a single ancestor, nor do I. While I am culturally a white woman, and have primarily European ancestry, I also have African, South Asian, and Indigenous American ancestors. 

WikiTree has no racial agenda, it is an application that allows users to record and document their ancestors. It cares not if we are Piscitarians or hail from Pisces. (Though I'd read *that* family line!)  

I'd love it if someone descended from John Presley's branch had information that would help me identify my 4th g-grandmother's name (i.e. unidentified wife of Dunning Caziah) because it appears John married one of her daughters. That's what I'm looking for. 

But for congeniality:

Do you speak dʒalaˈɡî ɡawónihisˈdî] ? (Cherokee?) 

Wawehráʔthaʔ Skarù·ręʔ (I speak the Tuscarora language. It was the 1st language of my father's family until my generation.)

Our clans are much the same. Te? sirʔęhę́·te hęʔ. (Of what people [clan] are you?) 

Akwakíhaʔnęʔ akirʔęhsę́·te. (I am of the Deer Clan.) 

Oneh - I walk. We do not say goodbye as we are confident that we will meet again, in this world or in the world beyond. Thus we guard our deeds and words well, for we will account for them with Ruʔwnawáʔkę (He-Holds-the-Heavens) 

Deb 

Answer 6

Chief William Taptico was Elvis Presley's native American ancestor. Elvis was his 8th great grandson. And as an added bonus Elvis and Dale Earnhardt are related through him.

https://www.geni.com/people/William-Taptico-Chief-of-the-Wicocomico-Nation/6000000009397620550?through=6000000009397611599

Comments

Sorry, but Elvis had no Native American ancestors.

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Kathie, I think it would be more accurate to say that Elvis' ties to Native American heritage are unproven. We don't know what we don't know.

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The two are (currently) 15 Degrees apart : 2 branches (6-10)

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There is no documentation to support the claims of descent from William, the head of the Wiccocomico Indians in the mid-1600’s..

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The connection is weak, but not a measure of descent, just of relation.

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I've learned to trust most things regarding NA genealogy to Kathie.

And after all, the original topic title is, "Elvis Presley -- Native American Ancestry?" So a degree of relationship, not ancestry, really wouldn't be applicable.