Help needed with dates/parents of Thomas Greene

Question

Thomas was attached to parents  [[Greene-1724|Sir Henry Greene]]  and [[Mauduit-102|Lady Matilda]].  But the dates don't work for them to be his parents.  He is now attached to Sir Henry Greene and Katherine Drayton .

If I'm looking at the correct IPM for Thomas, the inquisition at Wavynden perhaps gives us the answer of the parents.  My brain isn't functioning well today (no comments from the peanut gallery!), so I am not making sense of which Henry is which in the IPM.

If someone can sort it out so we can get the dates and parents correct, it would be much appreciated.

Comments

Darlene, You'll never get a peanut gallery response from me. My brain never functions well! I admire your work!

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Aw, shucks!  Thanks, Pip!

Answer 1

It looks like the correct IPM Darlene - Thomas Grene, knight starts at section 41 on this page and ends at section 46. 

The date of the writ is 1 September, 15 Richard II, which converts to 1391. (Regnal year calculator here)

All writs confirm that Thomas Grene aged 22 is his son and heir.

The writ from Wavynden, Buckinghamshire is section 45.

Concerns the manor of Wolston and Wavyndon (WW)

Historically a Henry Grene has a son Henry Grene. WW given from Henry the father to Henry the son, with reversion back to Henry father and his heirs when Henry father dies.

Reversion happened (on the death of Henry the father) and WW went to Thomas (the subject of this IPM) son and heir of Henry the father, implying that Thomas is older than his brother Henry. At time of the IPM, Henry the son (brother to Thomas the heir, subject of this IPM) holds WW together with Maud (Henry the son's wife).

Henry and Maud also hold the manor of Emberton from Thomas in the same fashion.

The research notes say that Thomas Greene-404 is the son of Henry and Maud, but it is clear that in 1391 that Henry and his wife Maud were both alive.

I also note two sets of duplicates in Thomas' children - Joan (same dates and married name) and Walter (same death dates, but differing birth dates)

Edit: corrected spelling of Wavynden

Comments

If you can find an IPM for a Henry Grene which mentions the manor of Wavynden in Bucks, that's the father of this Thomas.

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Found this link to the IPM of a Sir Henry Grene 10 August, 43 Edward III. This is 1369.

Starts at section 355

Names Thomas Grene his son aged 25 as his heir. 

Has a son Henry with a wife Maud holding Emberton, for the rent of a rose yearly. Reversion to heirs.

Side note: a lot of his lands are held on the payment of a sparrowhawk yearly.

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Thanks, Jo.  I had noticed the duplicate children this morning and proposed merges for them.

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The Henry to whom Thomas is attached died in 1370.  Do you (or someone else) have access to ODNB to see what it says about Henry, who was Chief Justice of the King's Bench?

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I just located a post of Rosie Bevans on SGM with regard to this line. It reads in part, ". . .Henry Green was knighted in 1354 and in 1361 was appointed chief justice of the King's Bench, from which he was removed in 1365; [DNB]; he died in 1369 and was succeeded in his Boughton estates by Thomas his son by his first wife; Drayton which he had acquired from Sir John Drayton, brother of his second wife Catherine, being settled on Henry his son by her [CIPM 43 Edw III, pt 1]. Sir Thomas, who died in 1391 [CIPM 15 Rich II, pt 1, no.24] was succeeded by his son another Thomas, Sheriff of Northants. in 1417, in which year he died. [CIPM 5 Hen V, no 39]. His widow Mary died in 1433, when their son, another Sir Thomas, came into possession of the whole manor [Fine R Northants. 12 Hen VI, m 42].

The manor passed from him to his son, grandson and great-grandson, all of whom were called Thomas [CIPM 2 Edw IV, no.4; Halstead, Succinct Genealogies, 169], but the sixth and last Thomas died in 1506, without male heirs, when his property passed to his two daughters Anne and Maud [CIPM (ser.2), cx, 74."

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That all seems to fit Darlene

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Hi Jo and Darlene,

I found this Wikipedia page for Henry Green. I think his information might fit the Henry Green Chief Justice that you are talking about. If it is and he has this Wikipedia page, he is also a Notable. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Green_(English_judge)

and...here's the Wikipedia page for his beheaded son, Henry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Green_(courtier)

Someone also wrote something about a yearly sparrowhawk above. This could possibly be a payment, tithe or something owed to the king to keep their lands. Hawking was only for royalty and the various types hawks were highly valued (more than people). Royal women got one level of hawk (generally smaller) and the king got a 'big daddy' hawk. I don't recall the various types because it's been a long while since I've study medieval royal living. 

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Hi Carol, we were aware of Chief Justice Henry (and his son).  If you look at his profile, there's a lot of information and sources, including the link to the Wikipedia article.  My question related to Thomas and if I had placed him correctly.  It seems as if I did, but if others figure out differently, please let me know.  Thank you.

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Hi Darlene,

DUH on my part. I was getting Notable info from Wikipedia when I saw these posts, checked for the names and downloaded without checking the site for sourcing. Sorry! Well, now you have the same Wikipedia page...one for each hand!

Will let you know if I come across info on Thomas.