German surname help please [closed]

Question

Hello. I need help with this surname as this is the first time I've run into this. This gentleman's name is Thomas Veith/Veit in most of this records. In a couple of records, his name is listed as Thomas Veit Grundherrlich Von Knebelissen.

So the question is, is this actually a part of his last name or is it some sort of what we call a dit name in French Canada?

Also, I'm seeing Veit and Veith for this line. Does anyone know if there's a difference in what I use? the more modern spelling is Veith.

All help appreciated so I can create his profile correctly. Thanks!

Edit to add this family is from Baden-Württemberg if that matters.

Comments

What is the relevant time frame/range for Thomas?

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Hi Lindy, I created his profile last night:   https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Veith-202 He was born in 1784

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Another variant of this name is Viet or Viets (Anglicized). See, e.g., https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Viets-50.

Answer 1

If a Canadian dit name is "from this place," yes, Grundherrlich = landowner from  . . .

I've usually seen the name as Veit, but both are used in US.

Comments

I guess my question is why was it included as part of his surname?

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Maybe there is more than one Thomas Veit?

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Possibly. It's not an uncommon name like his son whose name is Hilarius. :-)

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Bonjour,

Je ne suis pas sûr.

Le nom est VEIT(H)

Propriétaire/sieur de Knebelissen ?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7MMQ-1G2M

On le trouve pour une autre famille de Bulh

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V4KG-P7B

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https://gw.geneanet.org/suluidve?n=veith&oc=3&p=bernhard

https://gw.geneanet.org/tschift?n=veith&oc=&p=bernhard

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https://gw.geneanet.org/hhbuedding?lang=en&p=thomas&n=veith&oc=1

"Winzer bei Baron von Knebe"

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Merci beaucoup David pour votre travail. L'autre famille de Buhl est très intrigante!

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I have a veit traxler born: 1601

Location: sallingberg

In my tree.  My family tree is majority french Acadia

My name is Holly trosclair collins

Answer 2

There are both versions (Veit and Veith). The former bf of my aunt was a Veit, but there is also a alpine skier Anna Veith. So you can't really say, this one is the older version or that one the modern one.

Comments

Thank you Jelena, I meant for this particular family line. When they came to America, they were definitely Veith. I wasn't sure if they began as Veith or Veit though.

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Emma, There is no right or wrong way with name variations. In church records it simply depended on how the clerk/clergyman decided to spell it. That usually determined how the children learned to spell their name when they went to the church school. So use what an individual actually used if you have a signature, or how it appears in the baptismal, confirmation or marriage records.

Answer 3

Thomas and Veit are German first names. Multiple first names are possible. There are no middle names in German. Veit and Veith are just different spellings.
Grundherrlich means a person who has control over a piece of land.
Von is a name suffix as a noble title. That fits the land ownership.
Knebelissen can be the family name.

Comments

No, "von" is neither a suffix nor a title. It's just a preposition meaning "of, from". The fact that it has been wholesale misapplied with any and all surnames to indicate nobility doesn't change this.

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Then 'Knebelissen' should be a place. I have not found a place with this name. So it doesn't make sense.

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The original poster hasn't said *when* the "grundherrlich" records come from, but if they're earlier than the 1800s, then "von" is being used as a preposition, nothing more.

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There are middle names in Germany, in fact my 1700's ancestors from central Germany almost all had the first name of Johann, and so they commonly were called by their middle name.

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Rob, what they used (and continue to use) in German is multiple given names. Sebastian was _not_ Bach's middle name. It was a second given name: just as much his name as Johann, not in a separate category like the American concept. He was free to use either or both of Johann and Sebastian. (Given that both of his brothers and several of his sons were also Johann-Somethings, I'm sure he didn't go by just Johann.)

In English-speaking countries, there's a separate category of "middle name". (They're not part of people's official names, according to the U.S. Social Security Administration.) In the rest of the world, everything is either a family name (surname), or a given name. Laws and customs vary in terms of how many of each you can have and where/who you get them from, but they all agree that the elements within a category are of equal "weight" or importance.

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Interesting.  I didn't know the Social Security Admin had that policy.  People of course can go by whatever name (or nickname) they want in everyday life, but in signing certain things they do need to match their official ID.  I assumed the second name had equal weight to the first name in determining legal ID.

So do others apparently.  I just updated my driver's license to the new "Real ID", and had to give them my SS card as part of the documentation.  My SS card has my middle name on it, so they said they were putting my middle name on the driver's license.  In the past it had only been my middle initial (which I use to distinguish myself from my dad). If I had known about the SS policy, I could have argued against that, but I'm not sure if the DMV folks would care though.

Answer 4

"Veit" or "Veith" can be a male given name or a surname in German.

"Grundherrlich" is a legal term from medieval age. It means the heritage of an estate in contrast to a fief.

"Von" can be a title of nobility or, related to a place, can have the meaning "of/from", with the result that "Knebelissen" might be a medieval name of a village in Baden-Wuerttemberg.

I have not found any place called "Knebelissen", so that may be an abandoned medieval village.

Comments

Fully agree. "Knebelissen" could be a variation of "Knebelsheim" which points to Elsaß/Alsace region which is traditionally German but nowadays French. Due to this, naming of places changed radically multiple times.

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It's worth searching for the original document. Maybe the name is mispelled or misread and the context could be useful.

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It might also be the name of the property, rather than the village.  But I definitely read is as a descriptive for Thomas Veit(h) (could be either).

Answer 5

German language no longer has a "th" sound, it's just pronounced 't'.  The original spelling is probably Veith, but a census taker in U.S./Canada might hear and write Veit.  

Apparently starting in 1904, there was a push in Germany to change 'th' place names to 't', such as Neanderthal becoming Neandertal.

Answer 6

One thing to consider is that spelling was not set in stone in the olden days, "t" and "th" could easily be substituted for each other, sometimes in the same document. So if the question is what form to use the earliest possible source should be used, preferably a baptismal record. The other variant can go in the "Other Name" field. As to "grundherrlich" it means "dem grundherrn gehörig oder ihn betreffend" - belonging to or concerning the land owner. (Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm Grimm) Not being able to see the original document I would guess it only denotes his relationship as a subject to the von Kebelissen family, if that is a correct transcription of the name.

Addendum: Regarding the locations: the Landkreis Buchen existed from 1939 until 1972 only, Baden-Württemberg only exists since 1952 and Germany since 1871. In 1784 Steinbach belonged to the Kurfürstentum Mainz in the Heiliges Römisches Reich. As for his death Kappelwindeck was a separate town from Bühl until 1934, and the Landkreis Rastatt exists since 1939. In 1865 the town belonged to the Großherzogtum Baden, a sovereign state in the Deutscher Bund.

Comments

Thank you Helmut. Your answer is very helpful. I have so much to learn about German genealogy!

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You are not alone, Emma MacBeath! so thank you! And so, I should probably consider myself lucky. My probably German grandfather (no name given) would have similar knots in his name. But because his name was secreted by my father's mother, I don't need to worry about it.

Does anyone have a contrary or different idea about that?