Elvis Ancestry: who were the parents of John Mansell?

Question

In attempting to confirm or debunk the claimed Native American ancestry of the King of Rock'n'Roll, we are focusing on the Mansell (var. spellings) branch.

There is confusion about which William Mansell was the father of this John. See John's mother's profile to see the two different Williams. We are seeking the help of experienced researchers to help us distinguish these two (or more?) Williams, their respective origins and their respective spouses and sets of children. (This thread is focused NOT on Morning White's origins-- that's a separate issue we will address elsewhere.)

Can you please help?

Comments

Kathie, when you get a chance, could you report on your findings from your trip to the DAR library? I think we can rule out one of the William Mancill's currently attached as Morning White's husband.

And I think we also have enough data to draft something about John's mother.

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John Riley's book focuses on the Presley line and barely mentions the Mansell line.
I have the book.
My 3rd G Grandmother is Hannah Mansell. Daughter of Elender and William Mansell. Elender is on the 1860 census living with Hannah and her husband Solomon Kimery.
Elender's name was spelled Mancil. She was 70 yrs old.
She was not to be found after this, so I assume she died.
Many people have Elender as Elender Jane Egar. I am not sure why as there are no documents to prove that....same as marriage documents to Elender or Morning Dove White.
The only proof of Elender and Hannah is the 1860 census. I have not as yet found the son Benjamin.
We need to be careful what we add as assumptions. So many will take any information as gospel and run with it causing so many incorrect trees and information.
If high profile genealogist cannot get past this, I doubt many of us will either. But here is hoping!!

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Hi Janet,

Thanks for your response.

Yes, the only evidence of Elender that I've seen is that 1860 census.  No evidence of husband's name or maiden name anywhere.

Right?

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Hi Jillaine,
Right.
It just has her name, her age, that she works as domestic, personal estate is 50, born in NC and cannot read or write.
All the years I have searched, this is the only document I can find on Elender.

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How did you confirm the identity of Hannah's father?

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I'm not sure what, if anything, connects Hannah Kimrey with William Mansell in Alabama.  Hannah was the wife of Solomon Kimrey. There doesn't seem to be a marriage record for them in North Carolina, where both were born, or in Tennessee where they apparently lived in 1840. In 1850 they lived in Murray, Georgia.  By 1860 they lived in Marion, Alabama, which is where many of the Mansells lived, and "Ellender Mansell" is listed as a domestic in their household.  I don't think there's anything to support Ellender as Hannah's mother, although it's certainly possible.  By 1870 Hannah and Solomon have moved on to Tippah, Mississippi.   Solomon wrote his will in 1883 in Mississippi and Hannah was still alive.

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My G Grandmother was Gillie Clementine Donaldson. Her mother was Amanda Kimery. Amanda was Hannah's daughter. My Grandmother Gillie had a bible with all of the family written in it and she showed it to me when I was 16 yrs old. No interest in genealogy at all at that time. She passed when I was 20, just 2 years before I became interested in genealogy. She said the bible was mine when she passed.
Long story short....an Uncle came in and packed up everything of hers at gave it all to his children. No one will own up to having the bible.
I do remember her saying and seeing that Hannah Mansell was the son of William Mansell but I do remember his wife was not legible and Grandmother could not remember her name.
We had no idea it would link us to Elvis back then. Actually I was told this 5 yrs ago and laughed it off...but it looks like it is quite possibly true.
I would scoff at this if someone else posted it, but I did see this bible and for all I know it may not have been accurate....but I think it was. She was sharp as a tack back then. I do wish she had told me more about the Donaldsons....her Grandfather is a brick wall big time.
So no actually "documents" other than a bible I can no longer produce.
So just word of mouth from her Granddaughter and what I remember seeing.

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Heartbreaking story for any genealogist / family researcher, Janet.

I assume you meant to write that your grandmother told you that Hannah (wife of Solomon Kimery) was the daughter of William Mansell. 

A source citation for this would look like:

Gillie Clementine Donaldson McGuyer (188x-197x), as told to Janet Fowler about [year]. Gillie was daughter of Amanda Kimery Donaldson, and granddaughter of Hannah Mansell Kimery. This information was supposedly recorded in a family bible belonging to Gillie (seen by Janet Fowler in [year]), which was lost after her death.

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Yes, my age is catching up with me. Thank you for correcting that.
I will use that as a source. Thanks again.

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Kathie Forbes
You are correct. The only "document" we actually have is the 1860 census. The spelling was Elender Mancil. The spelling has been spelled both ways through out this family. I am a stickler for not using assumptions, folklore or word of mouth, so I am like you... still uncertain if Elender was indeed her mother. But as stated above, I did see the bible with William Mansell as Hannah's father.
One can only assume it was how the census taker spelled it, Elender was listed as "could not read or write". Actually Hannah was listed the same.
Hannah is not "listed" as being buried in the same cemetery as her husband Solomon Kimery....unless it is an unmarked grave. I think if we could find where Hannah is buried, we might find Elender?
Solomon was buried in Canaan Cemetery in Canaan, Mississippi. Hannah is listed in Solomon's will, so it is assumed she out lived him. Both are listed with death dates in 1886, but nothing to show when Hannah actually died.
I wonder if she moved in with one of her children? They had approx. 12 children living around Tennessee, Mississippi, Georgia and Alabama. I think one was in Arkansas.
So we still do not know who this woman really was.
Hopefully something other than books without documents will come through.

Answer 1

I have copies of land deeds in Marion County Alabama for William Mansell and for James Jordan Manscill his son.  I also have copies of military records for both.

James Jordan was my Great, Great Grandfather.

William married Jane Elender Egar.  They had six children.  I can find no divorce papers or records.  Both were still living when....

William then was with Morning Dove.  I can find no marriage records.  They had 5 children.

Comments

only single names of the landholders are on the grants

there are no "joint" grants and nothing to indicate paternity

there is only proximity

there are no proofs re parentage for any of the children attributed to the William under study here

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James, thanks for joining this inquiry.

What sources support the theory that the William Mansell who was supposedly married to Jane Elender Egar was also married to Morning? And what sources support the identity of either woman?

I found a reference to a circa 1900 document where a son of Morning Dizenia Mansell named his grandmother Morning White. No Dove. No Native American reference. Trying to find the origins of this reference.

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James, would you be willing to share the military records of William?

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The source is a 1904 facebook, “Notable Men of Alabama” Joel DuBose, Vol. 2, which included Alexander Sherman Palmer son of Russell and Dizenia Mansell Palmer. Free to read on Google books. 

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=5e7gLzzZGioC&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA381

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page 381 of the google bookhttp://books.google.com/books?q=William+Mansell&id=5e7gLzzZGioC&output=text#v=snippet&q=William%20Mansell&f=false

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above is a census record of daughter Morning.

she existed

Jillaine needs proof she had a brother John who leads to Elvis

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Thanks Eddie and Kathie for finding the 1904 bio of Alexander Sherman Palmer, son of Morning D. Mansell Palmer and grandson of Morning White Mansell.

I can't access the profiles right now, but when we can here is the citation to add:

Joel Campbell DuBose, Notable Men of Alabama, Atlanta, GA: Southern Historical Society (1904), volume II, p 381.

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Please provide documents of Elender's middle and last name. I believe that Jane and Egar is incorrect as there are no documents to prove this.

Answer 2

Please note that there are several William Mansells in the lineage.  I believe that he Mansells in Covington Alabama are related to the Mansells in Marion County, Alabama.  Notice the names from both groups.

Lots of folks including the Elvis tree genealogist claim that William came from Morning Flowers and Richard Rice Mansell.

My DNA refutes that claim.

Comments

It's quite a muddle.  The fact that the various Mansell families lived so far apart strongly suggests they weren't siblings, maybe cousins of some kind.  If the William of Marion County truly died in 1842 he cannot be the William who was the son of the Jackson County TN Richard Mansell.  That William died in Illinois in 1876 (and there is no 'Rice' that's just a bad transcription of Ric'd  - the census taker wrote "Robert" who was listed earlier on the same page, realized his error, crossed it out and squeezed in "Ric'd" instead).  I have pored over pages of War of 1812/ Horseshoe Bend and Flordia Indian Wars service record and found no Mansell with any spelling.  I found a William Mansell from Virginia who served in the Revolution, and I found the records for Moses Purser.  

The census records don't say much about wives.  The 1820 census in Franklin TN shows a wife under 26 and two children, 1840 census in Marion  shows a wife under 40 - who could possibly be the same woman, but could be a younger, second wife - and four young children.  It seems unlikely that a woman who had young children in 1820 would still have young children twenty years later.

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James, who is "the Elvis tree genealogist"?

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There are also a Thomas White and family living in Franklin County, TN on the 1820 census.  The ages of the parents and their children show that they could be "Morning's" family.  I will try to find more information on them.

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Kathie, on the 1880 census, it indicates that the parents of Morning D[isenzia] Mansell Palmer were both born in South (I think) Carolina. See: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GYB7-1SW?i=5&cc=1417683&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AM4V9-YNV

This is also repeated in the 1900 census:

"United States Census, 1900," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-691Q-CSP?cc=1325221&wc=9BQT-T3J%3A1031034401%2C1030809801%2C1034286301 : 5 August 2014), Alabama > Marion > ED 58 Precinct 1 Hamilton Hamilton > image 1 of 34; citing NARA microfilm publication T623 (Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration, n.d.).

This suggests that Morning White and her husband William Mansell [or whoever Dizenia's parents were] were born in South Carolina (assuming they were indeed the parents of Morning Disenzia Mansell Palmer).

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The 1790 census for Fairfield, S.C. includes a family headed by John Flowers and three families headed by men named Robert and Richard Mansell. One of the Roberts and Richard both appear with their families in Jackson County, Tennessee on the 1820 census.

Answer 3

Hi jillain!   I had worked through this at one time.   Richard Rice Mansell did have a son named William Lovitt Mansell who died in Hamilton Co., IL.   The Wm. I think you might be talking about also went to a county that was close to Hamilton in IL.   He came through TN and stayed with Richard Rice like they might have known each other from SC but I never could prove that these Mansells/Mancills were related.   They may be way far back somewhere, but I always had a sneaky suspicion that the two Wm. were  cousins.   Richard Rice's wife was Elizabeth Mobley and there were lots of Mobleys in SC.   I've always wondered if your Wm's mother wasn't a Mobley or kin.

There is a wonderful website with lots of proof about this.   To some people this website is difficult to understand, at least to some of the researchers I was working with at the time.   The website is entitled "Pioneers along Southern Trails", subtitle EDWARD MANSELL: An Indian connection for Elvis Presley.  I'm having trouble copying the URL, so maybe you can get it from this.

Comments

This blog post has lots of documentation for lots of people, but there is zero documentation for anyone being Native American, just statements that at various times people can’t be found in records for example, "It is an assumption that, at this time as a young man, William knew and associated with Native Americans."  and that somehow that creates an Indian  connection.  These references are all to records from the colonial era, a different William from the "William Mansell" who ended up in Alabama.  

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Here's the blog 

http://pioneersalongsoutherntrails.blogspot.com/2015/09/edward-mansell-indian-connection-for.html

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From that blog:

"At age thirteen, William Mansell, the son of William and Katherine Mansell of Boston, Massachusetts, left Boston and arrived in colonial Virginia shortly before 30 May 1678. <5>  When he came to Virginia, William Mansell received a voucher or “headright” for 50 acres of land."

I don't trust that at all. First that a minor-aged male left Boston for Virginia--rare for anyone much less a13-year old. Second that a 13 year old received a head right for 50 acres.  This leads me to be highly suspicious of anything else on this blog.  

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Wouldn't it depend on the age of discretion - and whether he lied about his age?

Minors could own land, depending on the circumstances.

There was no such thing as teenage.  It was child, or adult.

Males aged 16 had to serve in the militia.

Adulthood was often determined by puberty.

No idea if this has anything even remotely helpful, but offer it anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centuries_of_Childhood

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Melanie, I don't have time at this moment to track down the reference, but my experience working the records is that males were not considered adults until they were 21 in this era/place. I.e., they couldn't own land or qualify for freeman status prior to that time. We also typically don't see males marrying before age 21.

The other problem with the linked blog is the claimed migration from New England to Virginia. Not impossible but exceedingly rare.

Absent independent evidence that the Virginia man originated in New England, this wreaks of same-name syndrome.

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Minors in Virginia in the 1600’s and early 1700’s could only own land received by deed of gift or inheritance. They could not buy or sell land or enter into any enforceable contract.  The only exception was that they could indenture or apprentice themselves without parental consent at age 14.

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@ Jillaine and Kathie -

That's why I posed it as a question.  The age of majority was not the same thing as the age of discretion - and land could be owned by minors, but not legally sold by/to them, nor legally purchased by/from them.  There were a lot of other things minors could (actually legally could not) do, but if you entered into any contract with them and not their appointed guardian, the contract could be voided by dint of the minor having no legal right to enter into it in the first place and said minor simply walking away from it.

Girls could be married off at age 7 (but I don't remember if it said they could choose such).

Different areas had their own rules/laws, so what a minor might be able to do at the age of discretion (not majority) was determined by the rules/laws of that place.  (I DID research this a little, but not in-depth enough to be certain of exactly what was legal in which place.)  If I recall my reading correctly, Virginia was one of the places that very much had "own laws" about such things.

@ Jillaine: I agree it reeks of same-name syndrome.  (That, or cloning! )

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The blog sentence is not clear. At age 13 he is likely to have moved with his parents, and thus it could have been his father, William Mansell (Sr.) who received the head right.

Answer 4

Just to throw more confusion on the fire, this article claims that

Walter Mansell – a relative of Elvis' adored mother Gladys Mansell – married Morning White Dove in the early 1700s.

Mansell had emigrated to North America a few years beforehand.

Walter Mansell is a Scot from Ulster, Ireland. So, maybe folks have been looking in the wrong place all along?

The name of the book is Kith and Kin: The Continuing Legacy Of The Scots-Irish in America. The book is less than $7.00 on Amazon, so maybe one of y'all researching this might want to get a copy and check his sources?

Comments

All of these claims are myths.  No ancestor of Elvis has been connected to any Native American tribe or person.

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and the myths all seem to stem from the name of John Mansell's mother, which was "Morning White" (maybe spelled "Mourning").  A 1904 biographical sketch of Dr. Alexander Sherman Palmer identifies his mother as Morning D. [Dizenia] Mansell, and her parents as William and Morning (White) Mansell.  Dizenia Mansell was John's sister.

There is no suggestion in the 19th or the first half of the 20th century that Alexander Palmer's grandmother was Native American or that her name was "Morning Dove" or "Mourning Dove" or "White Dove," or any combination of those names. People who want Elvis to be Indian for some reason have added "Dove" to the name of his 3rd great-grandmother because they think it sounds Indian.