How to enter a Find A Grave source?

Question

I have watched the video:

Data Doctors, Suggestion 571, Find A Grave - Link without Grave ID

The video starts off by showing this format:

{{FindAGrave|123456|sameas=yes}}

However....

The first and second “should be” examples show spaces before and after the vertical bar.

Question 1:  Is a space to be put before and after the vertical bar or not?

Next, I noticed that the “sameas” flag is sometimes used and sometimes not.

Question 2: Is the “sameas” flag supposed to be used in every source?

Lastly, I noticed that in the last example of the video, spaces were put before and after the vertical bar, but the preview example showed no space between the # and the memorial number.  When I tried this on a profile putting spaces before and after the vertical bar, my preview showed a space between the # and the memorial number.

Question 3: Is the “Wiki” source standard supposed to have a space between the # and the memorial number or not?

Comments

Great question. Particularly the bit about the 'same as'. I didn't know that was an option! Thanks for asking, Tommy.

Answer 1

Question 1: No spaces before or after the vertical bar

Question 2: Use the "sameas" flags when you have more than one Find A Grave memorial referenced on the same profile. Use "sameas=yes" for the FAG for the person profiled, use "sameas=no" if the FAG refers to someone other than the person being profiled.  Use the "sameas=no" if the only FAG you have on the page is one which is not for the profiled person. You CAN use "sameas=yes" when the only FAG is for the person being profied, but it is absolutely not necessary. (In fact, I have been removing the "sameas=yes" from my own profiles as I encounter them.)

Question 3: Again, no space.

Here's an example not using "sameas":  

Copy the citation at the bottom of the FAG page (click on the blue words which say "Source citation" to reveal the citation) Paste that citation. Delete the "https://www.findagrave.com :" Put {{ before the word "Find." Remove the space between "Find" and "A." Remove the space between "A" and "Grave." Type a vertical bar immediately after the word "Grave." Delete the words "Memorial no." including the spaces before and after those words. After the memorial number type }}. 

The citation from FAG...

Find A Grave, database and images (https://www.findagrave.com : accessed 15 February 2020), memorial page for Tracy Kyle Everett (24 Apr 1894–12 Feb 1973), Find A Grave Memorial no. 137423178, citing Galatia Presbyterian Church, Fayetteville, Cumberland County, North Carolina, USA ; Maintained by NEVER EVER FORGET...... (contributor 48403481) .

...ends up looking like this in edit mode...

Find A Grave, database and images (accessed 14 July 2019), memorial page for Tracy Kyle Everett (24 Apr 1894–12 Feb 1973), {{FindAGrave|137423178}}, citing Galatia Presbyterian Church, Fayetteville, Cumberland County, North Carolina, USA ; Maintained by NEVER EVER FORGET...... (contributor 48403481) .

...and looks like this in the finished biography's sources list:

Find A Grave, database and images (accessed 14 July 2019), memorial page for Tracy Kyle Everett (24 Apr 1894–12 Feb 1973), Find A Grave: Memorial #137423178, citing Galatia Presbyterian Church, Fayetteville, Cumberland County, North Carolina, USA ; Maintained by NEVER EVER FORGET...... (contributor 48403481) .

It may seem a little complicated, but after you do it a few times, it becomes second nature, and provides a complete and correct citation for the FAG memorial.

Comments

Is "never ever forget" an instruction never to omit the maintainer, or is it a madeup name for a maintainer? I always delete the "maintained by" because the maintainer could easily change and my citation will be wrong. Also, I have no idea what the maintainer actually did, so it doesn't seem to answer the who, what, when, whereis, or wherein questions that a citation needs to address.

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The 'never ever forget' is the name being used by the Maintainer.  I have seen plenty of names like that for the maintainer of Find a Grave pages.  Since we are 'copying' a source citation, 'who' the maintainer is, is part of the citation, so I don't think we should be removing anything since that would be changing what is in the citation.

I do exactly what Nelda said, and yes, it is 2nd nature after you get used to those formatting changes. Removing the the Find a Grave url is being done because it doesn't go to the Profile Page.  Adding the template where the Memorial ID is in the citation is done so that we have a direct link to the Find a Grave page.  

Nelda explained the correct usage of the 'sameas' in the 3rd parameter, which has changed slightly, probably after the video was created.  Ales has said that it shouldn't be used in normal instances when the profile matches the FAG page being cited.  It should mainly be used being set to no when the FAG page is NOT for the profile person.   Also, make sure that none of that is capitalized OR you will get a suggestion!!

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Barry, "NEVER EVER FORGET," as Linda told you, is the pseudonym of the maintainer of the memorial on FAG. An FAG maintainer would be the equivalent of a profile manager here on WikiTree. They either created the memorial and supplied the data or at some point the maintenance of the memorial was transferred to them. It is the person you would contact if you want to ask questions, make suggestions, etc. They are the person who would receive suggestions for edits and make the edits to the memorial, if needed. In a citation, they would be sort of like the author of a book. (I maintain some FAG memorials which is why I know this.)

Yes, the maintainer could change (just as profile managers do here.) The citations for information we find anywhere on the internet can and do change because web addresses can move, etc. That doesn't mean we shouldn't supply the information just as it was on the date we accessed it (which is why the date of access is included in citations to internet sources.) What it does mean is that from time to time we need to check the source citations we embed or list on our WikiTree profiles to see if the links in the source still work and the information is still the same. My personal process is to make these checks on the anniversary of the birth, death, and/or marriage date of the profiles for which I am manager.

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"That doesn't mean we shouldn't supply the information just as it was on the date we accessed it." It's a question of *what* data. None of us is using the copy-and-paste citation on FindAGrave exactly as written. If I know who took the photograph, then that goes in the citation layer dealing with the image of the headstone because it answers the "who" question about the image. I assume the "photograph added by" is the photographer, although I can't know for sure. And often that person is different than the maintainer. When I observe that the maintainer is not the same person as the photographer, then knowing that someone is the maintainer tells me no additional essential information about either the grave itself, the photograph, or the website where it is being stored. The "wherein" for the electronic layer is answered by the memorial ID, and the Who is Ancestry Corporation. 

So to me, the maintainer is the person to contact with corrections, memorial transfers, or requests for information, and that's it. Putting them in the citation is just adding length to an already lengthy citation.

The sources help page says that the generally accepted citation style is Evidence Explained, so I just looked at what Mills does. On p.216 of Evidence Explained, Mills shows a model citation that looks like what I do -- the person who took the photograph is in there, but no mention of a maintainer.

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Barry, could you supply a profile ID on which you have cited Find A Grave so we can see exactly what you do? Or show us here on G2G. I looked through some of the profiles you manage and didn't find an example.

I have a copy of Evidence Explained and you are correct--she does cite Find A Grave far differently than I do (which is based on the source citation supplied by Find A Grave itself) but, other than not supplying the name of the Find A Grave contributor, I don't see that the full reference note (which I would be inclined to use) is much shorter than the source citation Find A Grave supplies. Furthermore, it would take me longer to construct the citation from scratch, so, to me, using the citation supplied by Find A Grave which I modify to fit into the WikiTree format of providing links and avoiding suggestions, is easier and quicker for me. The way I cite Find A Grave is, I hope, compliant with the instructions WikiTree supplies in its help pages and in its videos for Find A Grave citations. I also think that the source citation supplied by Find A Grave is made up of the information they want their citations to include so that should be what I honor.

In any case, I'm not saying or implying that the way I cite Find A Grave is the only correct way to cite Find A Grave. It is simply the way I modify the source citation supplied by Find A Grave to fit WikiTree's parameters so that it won't generate an error message or suggestion. I'm sure there are other forms of citation which are more than adequate and perhaps may be even more informative than what I do.

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P.S. I looked again at Evidence Explained, page 216, and noticed there she is citing the image of the gravestone and not the memorial itself, so that is why the contributor of the photograph's name is included rather than the person who maintains the memorial.

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I don't remember which profiles I have recently updated with FindAGrave, so I just added a citation to a profile that didn't have one:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Thurber-9

I use the copy-and-paste citation on the FindAGrave cite like most people do, with the usual modifications. I just then also switch the "maintained by" to a statement about the source of the photograph.

p.216 of Evidence Explained shows a memorial number, so I think it *is* citing the memorial itself. There are three layers -- the electronic layer corresponding to FindAGrave, the layer of the original gravestone, and the layer of the originator of the photograph. Unfortunately, FindAGrave doesn't give much information about that last layer.

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So, not so very different except that you prefer to credit the photographer rather than the memorial contributor which may or may not be the same person. If I were citing only the photograph itself, I would agree with you. However, the photograph contributor at FAG is not the person who added the data about names (full names/maiden names), dates of birth/death/marriage, locations for birth/death/marriage/burial, so if you are using any of that information (which may not be in the photograph, also), I would think you should credit the memorial contributor, especially since it is the contributor Find A Grave itself includes in the cut/paste source citation. I see no harm in crediting both the contributor and the photographer when they are different. Furthermore, this discussion has given me an idea that when an image/s is/are available to create a link at the end of my FAG citations to the original image and include the name of the photographer. After all, one of WikiTree's Honor Code tenets is to give credit to fellow researchers. In my opinion, both the contributor of the memorial and the photographer are fellow researchers and should be credited. Perhaps as a Find A Grave contributor of both memorials and photographs I am a little biased about this, but I think if someone cites one of the memorials I contributed to Find A Grave, I should be given credit for the information I researched and put into the memorial whether there was a photograph included or not.

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I almost never use data pulled from FindAGrave other than the photo. But even then, there is know way to know what of that information the "maintainer" contributed. Much of the information may be put up by the profile creator instead, but FindAGrave doesn't include that person in the citation. But you are right, I suppose the photo contributer, the original memorial creator, and the maintainer should all have credit (although for some maintainers, that is a stretch because they do nothing after having a memorial transferred to themselves).

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Any information on Find a Grave can change, just like it can on wikitree or any other site.  The maintainer can change, photographs can change, profile manager can change, but we are providing the source citation, as Find a Grave has given us, by copying the 'source citation'. On family search, we copy the source documentation.  We can always add more information in our citation than what is given.  I don't  see the reason for including the photographer and 'not' including the maintainer, who is the person that should be contacted to ask for the sources used to create the page.  Their citation also shows who was the person that created it, as well as the maintainer, if it has been changed.

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I don't see the creator in the copy-and-paste citation. It seems to me both that person and the photographer are known contributors and should be added when modifying the citation.

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I have seen plenty of pages that are now maintained by other people.  I have had pages transferred to me and the original person is on the citation, as well as the new person.  Sometimes it is Find a Grave, I assume, because the original person was not responding.

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Barry, I do see your point. I've just been working on a Find A Grave source citation and, you are right, the original creator of that memorial is not included in the source citation Find A Grave provided. I suppose if one wants to go above and beyond the source citation provided by Find A Grave, modified to fit WikiTree specs, one could add the creator when that person is different than the current "maintainer." (And I think I will.) It's on this profile if you wish to critique.

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The sameas flag pretty well is to avoid the "suggestions" regarding wrong person in the profile.

I use the entire citation from FaG - inside the <ref>'s and usually name it "fg" so I can use it in the profiles as an additional reference.(example: <ref name=fg>(FaG Citation)</ref>

The FaG creator is important since some of them ARE Wikitree people and others are recognized by their family as Genealogists - it speaks to the validity of the entry.

rsl

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Thanks, Roy, for agreeing that the Find A Grave creator/contributor should be credited.

Thanks, also, for bringing up the use of <ref name=???> when the source citation is used multiple times within a profile biography. My practice is similar to yours.

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Why would you credit the photographer, Barry, and not the page creator?  It makes little sense to me.  The photographer took a photo while walking through a cemetery; the maintainer researched many documents to create the memorial page.  If you are giving credit to authors, give credit also to the maintainers.

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You can't know what the maintainer did. A lot of maintainers just had a memorial transfered to them and do nothing. Others just enter some vital information, sometimes unsourced and incorrect. Some maintainers do a lot of research and then put it up. There's no way to know.

But like I said above, I pretty much never use FindAGrave for anything other than the photo of the gravestone. I always source my vital information, etc. elsewhere. When I add the <ref> tags, it is right after stating where the person is buried only -- not for any other information. So I make sure to get the photographer in the citation, but the "maintainer" doesn't answer any of the five questions for the gravestone photograph citation: who, what, when, where is, or, where in.

But that said, I realize from this back-and-forth that some people might take my citation and use the link for other information, and so I should include the maintainer, creator, and photographer all in the citation. It *is* important to mention the memorial creator, and right now, neither the creator of the memorial nor the photographer appears in the citation that the FindAGrave website provides -- only the current maintainer, who is often a third person.

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Barry, I have seen Find a Grave pages that have the initial Creator, as well as who is currently maintaining it.

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Linda: you have seen pages have both listed in the copy-and-paste citation at the bottom of the page? Can you give a link to an example?

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I was looking for a profile that had both mentioned and I can't find one.  I don't know if both are in the citation, if that is what you meant.  I have seen both mentioned on the page.

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This has all been about the citations. The standard FindAGrave copy-and-paste citation lists only the maintainer of the memorial, and not the creator nor the gravestone photographer (if they are different from the maintainer). IMO they are as important as the maintainer and so should be included when citing FindAGrave.

Answer 2

Tommy, here's how I do it. While in the edit mode, and writing the info in the biography, I go to the F.A.G. page and copy the URL. I then go back to the biography and where I want to put the F.A.G. info, I click the C Button 'Cite Your Source'. and then I paste the URL in between the <ref>  </ref> brackets. Use the preview button to make sure it looks correct before saving your changes. You may feel free to look at any of the profiles I manage to see an example. This will make the F.A.G. link an in-line citation. it looks like this: <ref>Find A Grave Index https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/50205893</ref> If this is not how you want to do it, I'm sure someone will help you with another way to do it. Hope this helps a little!

Answer 3

There is no space before or after the vertical bar. It is recommended to copy/paste the whole citation, as shown in the video, then change the Find A Grave memorial 123456 to {{FindAGrave|123456}} I don't use the sameas=yes as shown in the video.  I then remove  the link to Find A Grave homepage (as also shown in the video). 

Answer 4

Tommy, the other answers so far are good.

An example of when to use sameas=no is when, for instance, a woman is listed on her husband's grave stone and does not have a separate FAG memorial of her own.

Edit:  For the use of sameas=yes see Linda Peterson's comments above and below.  Thanks, Linda!

Comments

If the Find a Grave page is for the profile person and the date or location doesn't match, you will get a Suggestion if the sameas is not defined, as well as if it is defined with 'yes'.

They are ignored when the sameas is set to 'no' because you are telling the system it is a different person.

If the dates or location don't match because the sourcing on the wikitree profile is more accurate, then the Suggestion can be set to False Suggestion.  I also recommend sending a correction to Find a Grave with the correct date / location, as well as sending the URL or citation for the source you are recommending to be changed.

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Linda, I wish I could give you an "up vote" for your reply here. You explained so very well.

Answer 5

What I usually do when I have a Find A Grave memorial that corroborates the information I already have looks like this in my first paragraph:

Dock Holland Harris was born May 3, 1876, the son of [[Harris-5122|Jeter Harris]] and [[Padgett-1243|Sletter Padgett Harris]]<ref name="FAG">{{FindAGrave|48058700}}</ref>.

Then my last paragraph giving death and burial details looks like this:

Dock died 17 November 1918 in Elza, near Reidsville, Tattnall County, Georgia and was buried in [https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2141693/cedar-grove-methodist-church-cemetery Cedar Grove Methodist Church Cemetery], Tattnall County, Georgia, USA <ref name="FAG"/>.

I copy the citation at the bottom of the Find A Grave memorial page and paste it into my bibliography section, then I will put three single quotes around the person's name so it will show up as bold and two single quotes around the page name so it will be italicized.

There are probably as many ways to do this as there are people here, but this is mine and I like how my biographies look when I get all the formatting just so. ;-)

Comments

Debi, I like your suggestion to bold the name of the person memorialized on FAG. I looked at one of your profiles and I agree, it does look very nice. Though your formatting style is a little more complex (to me) than what I do, it definitely accomplishes the mission of providing complete source citations.

Answer 6

The FAG template {{FindAGrave|#######}} is all that I use as it is all that needed -- it provides a direct link to the memorial where all the other information can be seen. There is no reason why we need to record on WT profiles the extraneous information contained on the FAG site, especially the name of the person handling the memorial.

Comments

I know many people use this method. If the link changes, what information would be there to locate the moved memorial? The name of the cemetery would be helpful, at least.

I am a Find A Grave contributor as well as a WikiTree member. I believe if someone cites one of the memorials/photographs I contributed, I should be credited. Your shortcut citation does not give credit to a fellow researcher. Is your standard the same for other sources? That is, do you not include the names of fellow researchers in other citations or do you just do this for Find A Grave?

Answer 7

Question 1 -- WIkitree ignores the space before and after the vertical bar.

Question 2 -- "sameas=yes" is optional; the assumption is that the # matches the name on the profile. "sameas=no" is used to reference another persons memorial that might have information relevant to the WT profile on which it appears.