Norman Thomas Sleeman Mansell (1919 - 2007)

Born 24 Nov 1919 in Wandsworth

Husband of Mary Charlotte (Hunt) Mansell — married 1941 in Brentford

Descendants

Problems/Questions Profile manager: Tony Varey [send private message]

Biography

Norman was born in 1919 and married in 1941. He passed away in 2007.

In 2020 Margaret McSweeney wrote: "Both my father and myself tried to find out who dad's father was but Lydia took her secret to the grave with her. The person that signed Norman's birth certificate was Sleeman. Norman's father gave Lydia money for his upkeep until he was married. His father was also at his wedding unbeknown to Norman."

So who was his father? Around the end of 2019 Margaret had a DNA match with a John Sleeman... who provided some details of his forebears including, presumably, candidate fathers for Norman. John Sleeman is Sleeman-283. His father is Charles S b 1925 Croydon, and his father was Richard Alfred S b 1894 Croydon. Now he is the main candidate. He could have helped Lydia with Norman's upkeep until he was married - until he Richard Alfred was married, in 1926. However, Richard Alfred died in 1929, so he could not have attended Norman's marriage in 1940. But Richard Alfred's father (also a Richard b 1865 d 1945) could have done, and perhaps could have felt a bit fatherly towards Norman, having lost son Charles in 1916 as well as Richard Alfred in 1929...

Richard Sleeman b 1865 d 1945 is therefore the preferred candidate for Norman's father, albeit aged some 54 years when Norman was born vs Lydia at 28. he was the only one who could have supported Norman until he got married, and attended his wedding...

In 2020 Margaret said that John Sleeman's father Charles had a safe deposit box containing family documents. He is living with his daughter but the key is in his house in Croydon. In January 2022 she said that box and key had now been united but the box produced only birth and death certificates giving little or no new information.

Peter O'Kane feels that there could have been someone in the background helping the family along, for example helping with the education and career of his father Patrick John O'Kane (b 1924). Richard Senior was an "engineer" from Cornwall, and may have had family money (not yet investigated). However, in 1945 he left some £1000 to Richard Alfred's widow Eleanor.

Norman's birth certificate arrived in March 2021. No name of father. And the name of the registrar is C.(?) Mansell, not Sleeman! DoB 24 Nov 1919, date of registration 10 December. Where born is given as 54 Leigham Court Road. This is Streatham SW16 and Google says it was "Rokeby", a Mission of Hope Home. MoH was essentially an adoption agency with various facilities... and Croydon Council hold some records...

Here's some additional information about MoH. https://www.croydon.gov.uk/sites/default/files/articles/downloads/adoption_history-croydon.pdf

Lydia's address is given as 34 Mafeking Road, Seven Kings, Essex. There is a Mafeking Avenue there, a terrace house... There is a Mafeking Road, but that is in Tottenham.

I did find an occupant of 34 Mafeking Avenue, but it doesn't seem to lead anywhere... BELL Frederick Arthur John of 34 Mafeking-avenue Ilford Essex died 24 September 1937 at Charing Cross Hospital Westminster Administration London 18 October to Dorothy Annie Florence Bell widow. Effects £140.

This does not help us... We are missing a big house where Lydia worked and where there were horses in about 1906. We cannot find her 1911 census, and Lydia is not at 34 Mafeking Avenue in 1911:

• Ernest Russell Pickering

in the 1911 England Census Name: Ernest Russell Pickering Age in 1911: 27 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884 Relation to Head: Head Gender: Male Birth Place: Stockton On Tees, Durham Civil Parish: Ilford Search Photos: Search for 'Ilford' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection Country: England Street Address: 34 Mafeking Avenue, Seven Kings, Ilford Marital status: Married Occupation: Insurance Inspector Registration District Number: 191 Sub-registration District: Ilford ED, institution, or vessel: 37 Piece: 9886 Household Members: Name Age Ernest Russell Pickering 27 Elizabeth Grace Pickering 26 Gwendoline Maud Pickering 2/12

The Sleemans were in Croydon in 1911, and so she was possibly working down there in the late 1910s.

The 1921 census was duly published on 5 January 2022 and plausible records were found for both Norman and Lydia (see below) However, they did not move us forward in the identification of Norman's father...

Sources

BIRTH

• Norman T S Mansell

in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1916-2005 Name: Norman T S Mansell Mother's Maiden Surname: Mansell Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1919 Registration district: Wandsworth Inferred County: London Volume Number: 1d Page Number: 1245

1921 CENSUS

The 1921 census has separate records for both Norman and Lydia in Maidstone which look very plausible. Both their ages look good. However, this does not help with the identification of Norman's father...

• Lydia Mansell in 1921

1921 Census Of England & Wales 93 -94 High Street, Maidstone, Maidstone, Kent, England Household members (16 people) First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Sex Birth year Age in years Birth place Occupation Employer Mary Ann Hudson Housekeeper Female 1864 57 Ely, Cambridgeshire, England House Keeper Draper Lydia Mansell Maid Female 1894 26 Chertsey, Surrey, England Cook Draper Lily Woodman Maid Female 1904 16 Kent, England House Maid Draper Edith May Head Maid Female 1899 22 Wateringbury, Kent, England Parlour Maid Draper Sarah Blake Head Female 1842 79 Middlesex, England Draper Employer Show 11 more rows

Transcript of Lydia's record First name(s) Lydia Last name Mansell Address 93 -94 High Street, Maidstone Full address as transcribed 93-94 High St, Maidstone Sex Female Parish Maidstone Birth year 1894 Age in years 26 Age in months 9 Age as transcribed 26 y 9 m Registration district Maidstone Census date 19 June 1921 Registration district number 51 Sub-district Maidstone Sub-district number 3 Enumeration district number 13 Relationship to head Maid County Kent Marital status Single Country England Birth place Chertsey, Surrey, England Archive The National Archives Birth county Surrey Archive series RG 15 Birth country England Piece number 04237 Transcribed birth place Chertsey Schedule number 11 Occupation Cook Page 1 Occupation code 900 Schedule type code EE Occupation code with suffix 900/7 Schedule type England household, multiple page, 40 entries Employer Draper District reference RD 51 RS 3 ED 13 Employer code 636 Other household member's first name(s) Mary Ann, Lily, Edith May, Sarah, Emma Isabel, Margaret Annette, Ellen Kate, Margaret Kate, Lilly Elizabeth, Ethel Mary, Kate Eleanor, Florence Ethel, Alice Maude Ethel, Annie Harriet, Hilda Jeeves Place of work 94 High St, Maidstone Other household member's last name Hudson, Woodman, Head, Blake, Luckhurst, Bush, Brooks, Jackson, Smith, Paine, Wareham, Amer, Paul, Lee, Bater Language used to complete form English Record set 1921 Census Of England & Wales Person making return L J Baker Category Census, land & surveys House number 93 Subcategory Census House number suffix -94 Collections from Great Britain, England Street High Street, Maidstone

• Norman Mounsell in 1921

1921 Census Of England & Wales 35 Upper Fant Road, Maidstone, Maidstone, Kent, England Household members (7 people) First name(s) Last name Relationship to head Sex Birth year Age in years Birth place Occupation Employer Mary Ann Hough Head Female 1854 67 Warwick, Warwickshire, England Toster Mother - Reggie Stevens - Male 1909 11 - - - Noir Kingsley - Male 1919 2 Hastings, Sussex, England - - Norman Mounsell - Male 1919 1 London, London, England - - Alfred H Allen Boarder Male 1893 28 Peldon, Essex, England Carpenter Building Pattenson Ltd Building Cantrs

Transcript of Norman's record First name(s) Norman Last name Mounsell Sex Male Birth year 1919 Age in years 1 Age in months 7 Age as transcribed 1 y 7 m Birth place London, London, England Birth county London Birth country England Transcribed birth place London

Registration district number 51 Sub-district Maidstone Sub-district number 3 Enumeration district number 26 Census date 19 June 1921 County Kent Country England Archive The National Archives Archive series RG 15 Piece number 04248 Schedule number 152 Schedule type code E Schedule type England household, single page, 10 entries Language used to complete form English District reference RD 51 RS 3 ED 26 Person making return Mrs Hughes Other household member's first name(s) Julia, Alfred H, Noir, Reggie, Mary Ann, Alfred J House number 35 Other household member's last name Allen, Kingsley, Stevens, Hough Street Upper Fant Road, Maidstone Record set 1921 Census Of England & Wales Address 35 Upper Fant Road, Maidstone Category Census, land & surveys Full address as transcribed 35 Upper Fant Rd, Maidstone Subcategory Census Parish Maidstone Collections from Great Britain, England Registration district Maidstone

MERCHANT MARINE

The newspaper article below makes mention of his time as a Deck Boy...

...and Peter O'Kane and Margaret McSweeney both said that he ran away to sea when he found out that John O'Kane was not his father... (Could this mean that he was living under the name O'Kane for a time? Not necessarily...)

• UK and Ireland, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960

Name Norman Mansell Arrival Age 16 Birth Date 1920 Port of Departure Brisbane, Australia Arrival Date 8 Jun 1936 Port of Arrival Hull, England Ports of Voyage Brisbane; Sydney; Hobart; Melbourne; Adelaide; Fremantle; Colombo; Aden; Port Said and Malta Ship Name Moreton Bay Shipping Line Aberdeen and Commonwealth Line Official Number 130169

The Manuscript clearly stated "Deck Boy" and gives the (correct) Bovington Camp address.

MARRIAGE

• Norman T S Mansell

in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005 Name: Norman T S Mansell Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1941 Registration district: Brentford Inferred County: Middlesex Spouse: Mary C Hunt Volume Number: 3a Page Number: 1068

ELECTORAL

• Norman Thomas Sleeman Mansell

in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965 Name: Norman Thomas Sleeman Mansell Electoral Date: 1945 Ward or Division/Constituency: Chiswick West County or Borough: Brentford and Chiswick, England [37 Alwyn Avenue]

• Norman T S Mansell

in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965 Name: Norman T S Mansell Year: 1946 County or Borough: Brentford and Chiswick Ward or Division/Constituency: Chiswick West Street address: 10 [No. 10, Grange Rd Chiswick...]

• Norman T S Mansell

in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965 Name: Norman T S Mansell Electoral Date: 1951 Ward or Division/Constituency: Chiswick West County or Borough: Brentford and Chiswick, England [with Mary, 10 Grange Road]

NEWSPAPER ARTICLE

See image.

At the age of 14 he joined the Merchant Navy as a deck boy...

Returned in 1936 to join regular army - Royal Signals.

While stationed ar Catterick, played inside right vs Middlesborough for a representative Army XI.

In 1941, stationed near London, he turned out twice for Watford, against Portsmouth and Tottenham Hotspur.

On release form the Army he joined Hounslow - they won the Spartan League that year (1941).

Then played for Hayes (Athenian League) for the next two years.

Cartilege trouble prevented hi from playing in 1948-49, but returned to "important" football "this season" when he joined Willesden.

By trade he is a fitter and welder and besides football he is happiest when he is playing billiards.

The date of the article is not clear but must late 1949,1950 or 1951 (?)

PASSAGE

They went to Canada in 1952...

(...together with Mary, Margaret and Norma...)

• Norman Mancell

in the UK and Ireland, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960 Name: Norman Mancell Gender: Male Age: 32 Birth Date: abt 1920 Departure Date: 2 Oct 1952 Port of Departure: Liverpool, England Destination Port: Montreal, Canada Ship Name: Ascania Shipping Line: Cunard White Star Limited

DIRECTORY

Is this him? Not necessarily.

• Norm Mansell

in the Saskatchewan, Canada, Residents Index (SRI), 1800-2012 Name: Norm Mansell Residence Date: 1967 Residence Place: Leask, Saskatchewan, Canada Description: casual mention

It's quite a way from BC, but there are directory entries for Andre Dauvin in Saskatchewan...

DEATH

• Norman Thomas Mansell

in the Canada, Obituary Collection, 1898-Current Name: Norman Thomas Mansell Gender: Male Death Age: 87 Birth Date: abt 1920 Birth Place: Britain Residence Place: Canada, Vernon, BC, Lower Mainland, Vernon Death Date: 1 Jan 2007 Burial Date: 5 Jan Obituary Date: 29 Oct 2007 Obituary Place: Vernon, British Columbia, Canada Spouse: Molly Child: Margaret McSweeney Norma Dauvin

• Norman Thomas Mansell

in the U.S., Obituary Collection, 1930-Current Name: Norman Thomas Mansell Gender: Male Death Age: 87 Birth Date: abt 1920 Birth Place: Britain Residence Place: Canada Death Date: 1 Jan 2007 Burial Date: 5 Jan Spouse: Molly Child: Norma Dauvin Margaret McSweeney

• Norman Thomas Mansell

in the Canada, Find A Grave Index, 1600s-Current Name: Norman Thomas Mansell Gender: M (Male) Birth Date: 1919 Death Date: 1 Jan 2007 Cemetery: St. Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Cemetery Burial or Cremation Place: Coldstream, North Okanagan Regional District, British Columbia, Canada Has Bio?: N TEXT Norman Thomas “Norm” Mansell PLOT Section B MEMORIAL ID 190196324