Joanna (Moray) Moray Countess of Douglas
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Joanna (Moray) Moray Countess of Douglas (abt. 1340 - abt. 1405)

Lady Joanna "of Drumsargard" Moray Countess of Douglas formerly Moray
Born about in Cambuslang, Lanarkshire, Scotlandmap
Ancestors ancestors
Wife of — married about 1355 (to 1361) [location unknown]
Wife of — married 23 Jul 1362 in (Date of Papal Dispensation)map
Descendants descendants
Died about at about age 65 in Bothwell,Lanarkshire, Scotlandmap
Profile last modified | Created 4 Jul 2020
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Declaration of Arbroath
Joanna (Moray) Moray Countess of Douglas was descended from a signer of the Declaration of Arbroath.
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Biography

Joanna (Moray) Moray Countess of Douglas is a member of Clan Murray.
Joanna (Moray) Moray Countess of Douglas is a member of Clan Douglas.

Joanna de Moray was born about 1340, the only child, heiress and daughter of Maurice de Moray, 9th Earl of Strathearn, by his spouse Joan, daughter of Sir John Menteith of Rusky, Knt. Joanna was the widow of Sir Thomas de Moray, Lord of Bothwell.[1]

Her father died at the Battle of Neville's Cross on 17 Oct 1346 and was survived by his spouse Joanna Menteith who continued as Countess of Strathearn and their daughter Joanna adopted the title of Drumsagard from her father.

Joanna Moray married Sir Thomas Moray of Bothwell when she was in her teens but she was to see little of him.

By the Treaty of Berwick in October 1357 and a heavy ransom for King David was set to be paid to the English. As security for the payment eight of the great barons of Scotland were selected of whom three were to place themselves in the hands of the King of England as hostages for the payment of the ransom. Sir Thomas Moray, Lord Bothwell was one of the three to whom the lot fell and thus he had to leave his young wife and make his way to captivity in London. Some two years or more later, Sir Thomas fell ill and on 28 June 1360, King Edward granted safe conduct for Walter de Moray with an attendant to travel through England to visit the hostage. This Walter Murray was the uncle of Joanna Moray, young wife of the captive. Whether Walter arrived in time to bring Thomas news from his wife is not known and sadly the illness must have been serious for Sir Thomas died about this time. Joanna however rewarded her uncle for his services. Joanna Moray, Lady of Drumsagard in her free widowhood granted to her beloved uncle, "Walter de Moravia," her whole lands of Artithol and Cullow ("Ardtouchill and Coulowe ") in the barony of Cortachy.[2] Joanna Menteith as Countess of Strathearn was lady of the barony of Cortachy, having been granted the "lands of Cartachie " by her first husband about 1323, and thus as feudal superior of the lands she ratified her daughter's gift in a charter written about 1362. [3]

The young widow married about 1362 to Sir Archibald Douglas Third Earl of Douglas, Lord of Galloway. [4] Although Joanna was liferentrix of Drumsagart and Bothwell Sir Archibald "The Grim" appears to have seized these lands displacing Joanna's uncle Alexander Moray of Tillibardine who tried unsuccessfully to recover Drumsagard and Bothwell by law. His claim being that he was served heir to his father Sir John Murray of Drumsagard and furthermore was kinsman of the last Lord Bothwell and next heir-male through Sir Andrew de Moravia who died 1297.

Sir Archibald Douglas and Joanna Moray had issue:

  • Archibald b. cicra1372 heir to the earldom as Fourth Earl
  • James b. circa 1375 Seventh Earl of Douglas
  • Mary who mar. (1) David, Prince of Scotland and (2) Walter Halyburton

Late in life after the death of her husband Johanna, Countess of Douglas, lady of Galloway and of Bothwell, on 6 Feb 1400/01 at Bothwell Castle granted to her eldest son, Archibald, Earl of Douglas and Lord of Galloway in excambion for his £10 lands of Halls of Eirth, her lands of Cranshaws in the constabulary of Haddington. [5] Three days later Joanna issued a Precept of Sasine of the lands of Cranshaws in favour of Archibald. [6]

Research Notes

Sources

  1. The Complete Peerage by G. E. Cockayne, edited by the Hon. Vicary Gibbs and H. Arthur Doubleday, vol.iv, London, 1916, p.433 and notes.
  2. Laing Charters 379 Item 1 see [1]
  3. Laing Charters 379 Item 2 see [2]
  4. The Scots Peerage Vol.3 pp 161- 162 see [3]
  5. NRS GD12/14 see [4]
  6. NRS GD12/15 see [5]
See Also:
  • Paul, James Balfour. The Scots Peerage : Founded On Wood's ed. of Sir Robert Douglas's Peerage of Scotland; Containing An Historical And Genealogical Account of The Nobility of That Kingdom. Edinburgh: Douglas (1904) Moray, Earl of Strathearn, Vol VIII, pps 255-8.
  • Paul, James Balfour. The Scots Peerage : Founded On Wood's ed. of Sir Robert Douglas's Peerage of Scotland; Containing An Historical And Genealogical Account of The Nobility Of That Kingdom. Edinburgh: Douglas (1904) Thomas Moray, Lord of Bothwell, Vol II, pps 129 - 131
  • Paul, James Balfour. The Scots Peerage : Founded On Wood's ed. of Sir Robert Douglas's Peerage of Scotland; Containing An Historical And Genealogical Account of The Nobility of That Kingdom. Edinburgh: Douglas (1904) Widow of Sir Thomas, Vol III, pg 161-2
  • Paul, James Balfour. The Scots Peerage : Founded On Wood's ed. of Sir Robert Douglas's Peerage of Scotland; Containing An Historical And Genealogical Account of The Nobility of That Kingdom. Edinburgh: Douglas (1904) Malise Strathearn, Vol VIII, pps 251-2


See Also:





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Comments: 15

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This was complex Joanna was her father's heir but Drumsagard was male entailed so should have gone to her uncle Alexander Moray half brother of Maurice and heir to his mother Mary Strathearn. However her second husband Archibald "The Grim", earl of Douglas was very powerful and laid claim to that. Alexander eventually gave up and passed the title to his younger brother german Walter Murray who used the title. You can see the title being used by both Joanna Lady Drumsagard and her uncle Walter Murray of Drumsagard (Murray-18891) among other places in the Laing Charters No. 379 see https://archive.org/details/calendaroflaing00edin/page/98/mode/2up. Seems you could adopt the title if you have powerful enough backing to frighten off the lawyers. What term would you suggest?
posted by Jack Blair
edited by Jack Blair
Some years ago I wrote on feudal land law (which Scotland operated under). Superiorities could only go to males, however remote. Feues were normally male entailed although could be re-assigned in the lifetime of the holder. Whatever Joanna had would normally become her husband's property. Scotland being THE place for conflicting claims, that Walter Moray/Murray used the landed designation is neither here nor there. I could do a search but if the Earl of Douglas had a charter of Drumsguard under the Great Seal that would rather settle the matter. If he merely held the property by occupational force that is another. In any case I think he only had daughters, so again that leaves matters up in the air as upon his death the rightful heirs could have raised a new claim in the Privy Council. I cannot see that Joanna had any right to use the territorial designation "of Drumsguard" unless she held the superiority or feu (which she did not). If her husband held either of these casual use (which would be incorrect in her husband's lifetime) of her as Lady Drumsguard was sometimes used, but more often after her husband, the landholder, had died. Many charters and documents are littered with these casual errors. In my own remote family the last George Lauder of The Bass's mother regularly appears as "Lady Bass" up to a decade after her husband had died. This was arguably correct in her son's minority but should have been dropped when he came of age.
posted by Gregory Lauder-Frost
edited by Gregory Lauder-Frost
Joanna appears to have been liferentrix not only of Drumsagard by her father but also of Boswell by her first husband who did not make any claim on Drumsagard. Indeed it was her uncle Alexander Moray who in 1348 was served heir to his father Sir John Moray of Drumsagard and succeeded to the title of Drumsagard and the lands of Abercairney. Some years later by a charter dated 18 May 1358, he obtained from Robert lord high Steward of Scotland, then earl of Strathearn, a confirmation of all the grants made to his father. From the Laing Charter 379 we see Joanna designed Lady of Drumsagard in 1361-62 before she married Archibald "the Grim", After their marriage Sir Archibald laid claim to all the Bothwell lands of which she was liferentrix. Sir Alexander Moray, disputed this, being kinsman of the last Lord Bothwell and next heir-male through Sir Andrew de Moravia who died 1297. An indenture executed at Perth on 24 November 1375 between Queen Euphemia and her son Earl David on the one part and Sir Alexander Moray of Drumsagard on the other records the agreement that Alexander should marry Lady Janet (Johanna) Ross de Monymusk, sister to the Queen who with her son promised to assist Alexander in recovering his inheritance. However, giving up on his claim Sir Alexander granted a charter under the Great Seal of the lands and Barony of Drumsagard to his younger brother, Walter, my forebear. Evidence is that Joanna used the title Lady of Drumsagard while her uncles also had claim to Drumsagard. She and her mother were on good terms with her uncle Walter before her marriage to Sir Archibald.
posted by Jack Blair
Interesting but in law she had no right to call herself "of Drumsagard". A life-rent does not afford you this.
posted by Gregory Lauder-Frost
Agreed hence I used the term "adopted". This is where we came in!
posted by Jack Blair
Joanna adopted the title of Drumsagard from her father. Errrr.....pardon me? Was she a laird in her own right? Where can I find that? You cannot just "adopt" a territorial designation.
posted by Gregory Lauder-Frost
Moray-166 and Stratherne-1 appear to represent the same person because: Appear to be the same person but Stratherne-1 is given wrong parents and siblings
posted on Stratherne-1 (merged) by Jack Blair
Stratherne-1 and Moray-166 are not ready to be merged because: Too many dates and names need to be sorted out.
This should be merged with Moray-166
posted on Stratherne-1 (merged) by Jack Blair
This appears to be Joanna Moray not Strathearn. She was daughter to Maurice Moray son of Sir John Moray of Drumsagard by his wife Johanna Menteith Countess of Strathearn. See Moray-166
posted on Stratherne-1 (merged) by Jack Blair
A merge went the wrong way. Her LNAB should be Moray, and her parents should be Maurice de Moray-50 and Joan de Menteith-3.
posted on Stratherne-1 (merged) by [Living Horace]
Maurice Moray-50 was her father, not her husband. Her mother is unknown.
posted on Stratherne-1 (merged) by [Living Horace]
Hi RJ - there seem to be quite a few sources that name her mother as Joanna Mentieth including The Scots Peerage, Vol. 8, p. 257 https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun08paul/page/256/mode/2up and Vol 3, p. 162 https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun03paul/page/162/mode/2up as well as The Complete Peerage, vol. 4, p. 433, and Vol. 12 (1), p. 388. Is there later sources that dispute this?
posted on Stratherne-1 (merged) by John Atkinson
Fair enough. I think that works, but some dates need adjusting to avoid contradictions.
posted on Stratherne-1 (merged) by [Living Horace]
210 Father was dead before birth
posted on Stratherne-1 (merged) by Stephen Norman Craig McCallum