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Richard Warren (1583 - 1628)

Richard Warren
Born in Englandmap
Son of [father unknown] and [mother unknown]
Husband of — married 14 Apr 1610 in Great Amwell, Hertfordshire, Englandmap
Descendants descendants
Died at about age 45 in Plymouth, Plymouth Colonymap
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Contents

Biography

Cross of St George
Richard Warren was born in England.

Initially Proposed Origin

A recent first attempt in identifying the origins of passenger Richard Warren was cautiously put forward by Mayflower scholar Caleb Johnson.[1] Caleb leaned upon the generally-accepted 14 April 1610 marriage to Elizabeth Walker at Great Amwell.[2]  Richard's wife's family resided in Great Amwell, Hertfordshire, from about 1610 and it is reasonable to think that he, too, could have come from there.

The 2002 discovery of the 1613 will of Elizabeth Walker’s father, Augustine Walker – a will that not only names daughter Elizabeth as the wife of Richard Warren, but also names that couple’s first three daughters, Mary, Ann and Sarah, in their correct order of birth – provided the critical evidence that Elizabeth, and likely her husband, were from the region around Great Amwell.[3] Given this strong connection to the area, there is some likelihood that Richard Warren of the Mayflower is in fact the Richard Warren christened at the Abbey at St. Albans, Hertfordshire, on 12 April 1585.[4]  This fits reasonably well with his 1610 marriage to Elizabeth at Great Amwell (roughly a dozen miles from St. Albans), though it would appear – if he was baptized close to his actual birth – to make him slightly younger than Elizabeth, whose christening is understood to be that recorded some miles to the north at Baldock in September of 1583.[5] That age discrepancy, which would be somewhat unusual, could perhaps undergird the earlier estimate of Anderson et al., in The Great Migration Begins (published in 1995, some years prior to the discovery of Augustine Walker’s will), that Richard was born by “about 1578 based on estimated date of marriage”.[6]

A William Warren whose dates make him a candidate, at least, as father of the Richard Warren christened at St. Albans in 1585 is the man christened at Therfield, Hertfordshire, on 19 November 1557, son of a senior William.[7] Therfield sits about 25 miles north of St. Albans – a significant distance for the times, but not prohibitive. He is presumably the “Gulielmu. Waren” who, aged about 27, married “Elizabetha Heade” at Therfield on 18 October 1584.[8][9] This would fit adequately with the birth of the Richard Warren christened at St. Albans in mid-April of the year following, provided one allows for a marriage some two months into a bride’s pregnancy – not an entirely uncommon event.

Another possible Hertfordshire origin for Richard is found in the christening record of “Richarde Waren”, son of a (presumably) different William, at Rickmansworth on 12 August of 1576.[10] This origin would yield a Richard some seven years older than Elizabeth Walker at the time of their marriage, perhaps slightly less unusual than finding a groom a bit younger than his bride. There is, however, a record of the marriage of a Richard Waren [sic] on 20 June 1602 to “Jone Sigon” at Welwyn, some fifteen miles northwest of Rickmansworth;[11] this Richard might reasonably be suspected to be the man born at Rickmansworth, by then about age 26, close to the usual marrying age for males of that time.

Merchant of London

According to his Mayflower passenger record, Richard was a merchant from London. A recent finding, which supports this "of London" description, is from the Drapers' Company of London: on or about 14 February 1609, Richard Warren was given freedom of London; he also had his own apprentices in 1610 and 1612 [see California Mayflower Quarterly 47(4):38-39 (Fall 2023)]. It was fairly common for young men of all social classes to become freemen of London, thus becoming a resident of London and allowed to transact business on the streets of London. Typically, an apprentice could not marry, so married about a year after being given freedom, in this case of London. Richard Warren follows this pattern. As an apprentice in the Drapers' Company, Richard would have known another member of the Drapers' Company: Simon Adams, who was given freedom 22 January 1596 and who married the eldest daughter of Augustine Walker in 1599. Simon and Doratie's first child was baptized about three months after their marriage. It would appear Elizabeth copied her eldest sister and had her first child a few months after her marriage date.

Marriage

As noted above, Richard Warren married 14 Apr 1610, at Great Amwell, Hertfordshire, Elizabeth Walker, youngest daughter of Augustine Walker;[12][13] the will of Augustine Walker also mentions the first three Warren daughters, Mary, Anna, and Sarah.[3] Elizabeth, bap. in September 1583, died at Plymouth, 2 Oct 1673, "aged above 90 years," and apparently 90 years and one month old. [14][15]

Please note this is more recent than the original Great Migration Series which says he married by about 1609 Elizabeth (Unknown).[6] It has also been suggested, but refuted by 1901, that her surname was March.[6]

Children

Richard and Elizabeth (Walker) Warren had 7 children:[6]

  1. Mary Warren, b say July 1610, d Plymouth 27 Mar 1683; m. say 1629 to Robert Bartlett (d between 19 Sep and 29 Oct 1676, Plymouth).
  2. Anna Warren, b say Oct 1611, d ; m Plymouth 19 Apr 1633 to Thomas Little
  3. Sarah Warren, b say Jan 1613, d after 15 Jul 1696; m Plymouth 28 Mar 1634 to John Cooke.
  4. Elizabeth Warren, b say 1615; m by 1635/6 to Richard Church.
  5. Abigail Warren, b say 1618; m Plymouth 8 (or 9) Nov 1639 to Anthony Snow.
  6. Nathaniel Warren, b Plymouth ca. 1624;[16] m 19 Nov 1645 to Sarah Walker.
  7. Joseph Warren, born Plymouth by 1627 in Plymouth. He married Priscilla Faunce about 1653 and had six children. He died on May 4, 1689, in Plymouth. She died on May 15, 1707, in Plymouth. [17]

The five daughters accompanied their mother Elizabeth to Plymouth Colony on the ship Anne in 1623. The two sons were born later.

All of Richard Warren's known children survived to adulthood, married, and also had large families. It is claimed that Warren has the largest posterity of any pilgrim, numbering 14 million, the Mayflower passenger with more descendants than any other passenger.[18]

Financial Investor

When the Pilgrims were planning to leave Leyden, Holland, to migrate to the new world, they found that they needed to find financial investors and additional settlers. Several of the new recruits came from London, Mr. Richard Warren among them. The Mr. title implies that he was a man of either rank or wealth.[19] He has been described as of London in the booklet Mourt's Relation, published about 1622.[20]

Immigration

Richard Warren was one of the forty-one adult male signatories to the Mayflower Compact, composed upon the arrival of the Mayflower at Cape Cod Harbor in November 1620.[21] He settled at Plymouth and in the 1623 division, Richard received an unknown acreage of land (probably two) for his passage aboard the Mayflower. He also received five acres for passage aboard the Anne; this was presumably for his wife and five daughters: Mary, Anna, Sarah, Elizabeth and Abigal, who arrived in 1623.[6]

A trip across the Atlantic was difficult at best in 1620. The Mayflower had delayed leaving until late in the season, so the voyage became stormy as the weeks progressed through the fall and into the start of winter.

The Voyage of the Mayflower. The material in this link was transcribed by WikiTree contributor Allan Morton from Bradford's History. It also includes the text of the Mayflower Compact, a list of the signers (including Richard Warren) and the story of the First Encounter. Warren's name appears twelfth on the Compact.

Plymouth

Richard Warren was one of the group of Pilgrims who went ashore on December 6, 1620 (O.S.) and engaged in a "huggery" with a group of the natives, referred to as "The First Encounter". This story appears both in Mourt's Relation,[20] published in London in 1622, and (in a condensed version) in William Bradford's Of Plymouth Plantation.

Richard Warren survived the dreadful time of sickness when about half of the one hundred and three passengers died in the extreme hardships, including near starvation, of the first couple of years of the settlement.

Richard received a grant of land in the 1623 Division of Land.[22]

In July of the year 1623, he welcomed his wife and five daughters who arrived on the ship Anne along with sixty more people to live in the new settlement.

He seems to have been one of the five assistant governors from 1624-1628.

In 1626 twenty-seven Plymouth settlers, called Purchasers, were involved with the colony joint-stock company which afterwards was turned over to the control of senior colony members. That group was called Undertakers, and was made up of such as Bradford, Standish and Allerton initially who were later joined by Winslow, Brewster, Howland, Alden, Pence and others from London, former Merchant Adventurers. The agreement was dated October 26, 1626 and was finalized sometime in 1627. Richard Warren may have originally been a party to the agreement, but due to his death, which may have been sometime in 1628, his name on the charter was changed to that of his wife, recorded as "Elizabeth Warren, widow." Elizabeth Warren, as a widow, was named in a law passed by the Plymouth Court specifically to give her the Purchaser status that her husband had - "hee dying before he had performed the bargaine, the said Elizabeth performed the same after his decease...."

The Warren family is listed in the division of cattle, 1627.[14] [23] It is believed that the list includes everyone's name residing then in Plymouth.

The Warren house, built in 1627, stood at the same location as the present house, at the head of Clifford Road, with its back to the sea. It was rebuilt about 1700 and owned by Charles Strickland (in 1976).

Richard Warren died at Plymouth in 1628[14] leaving his wife and seven children. "This year [1628] died Mr. Richard Warren, who hath been mentioned before in this book, and was a useful instrument; and during his life bore a deep share in the difficulties and troubles of the first settlement of the plantation of New Plimouth." Nathaniel Morton, New England's Memorial (Boston : John Usher, 1669).

Richard Warren left behind a wife, remarkable in her own right, seven children who married and had descendants numbering in the millions, probably the largest number of any Mayflower Family. During her widowhood, Elizabeth Warren's name is noted in Plymouth Colony records. Elizabeth was listed as the executor of her husband's estate, paying taxes as head of household and as an independent agent in her own right.

Death and Legacy

Richard Warren died at Plymouth of unknown causes, sometime in 1628 (exact date unknown).[6][14] It appears that Warren was in middle life at the time of his emigration from England in 1620: about 37 years old. This early age at death may indicate a difficult survival in childhood.

Richard Warren's widow Elizabeth would live to be more than ninety years of age, dying on 2 Oct 1673.[14] Both she and her husband were buried on Burial Hill in Plymouth.

Research Notes

Son of John Warren, armorer?: It has recently been suggested in the California Mayflower Quarterly that the parents of Richard Warren were John Warren, armorer, of London and his wife Lattis/Lattice.[24] And that he is the same as the Richard Warren baptized on 24 January 1579/80 at St. Peter's on Cornhill parish in London "son of John Warren, armorer."[25] This has been challenged and is not accepted.[26]
John Warren of London, armorer, had six known children, namely Jasper, John, William, Susan, Richard and Elizabeth.[27] He was buried on 12 September 1585 aged 50 yr of the plague, and was buried in the west yard of St. Peter's.[28] Lettis Warren, widow of John Warren, armorer, married on 19 June 1587 Lawrence Evannes, of London, cutler, son of Richard Evannes.[29]
The primary argument made for supposing that Richard Warren of the Mayflower was the same as Richard Warren, son of John Warren the armorer, is onomastic. The standard naming pattern used often in large families in the 1500s and 1600s gave the first son his father's father's name, the second son received his father's name and the third son received his father's grandfather's name. The article argues that as Nathaniel Warren, son of Richard, named his sons Richard, Nathaniel, John, James and Jabez, that the father of Richard Warren must have been named John. The use of the names Richard and Nathaniel indicates to the onomastic fan that the name John is significant. This argument is hard to follow and does not make sense, according to some readers of the recent article. Thus, the objection by some is that the third-born son of a grandchild given a name as common as John in no way indicates that the grandfather must have been named John. Yes, it would have been more interesting, and the onomastic arguement believeable, if any grandchild had been named Lettice, but no such unusual name exists in the Warren descendants. The common names of John and Richard cannot help us identify the origins of the immigrant, say some. It is also noted that Richard Warren was called as being "of London" in Mourt's Relation, supposing that this strengthens the argument that this is the correct Richard Warren. However, a merchant living in London in 1620 could literally have come from anywhere in England and this does not help us identify Richard Warren of the Mayflower as being the son of the armorer. Finally, a sword hilt unearthed in 1898 was identified in May 1982 in an article by Anthony D. Darling, an expert on early English swords. Darling said this in his article: "attributing ownership of the sword to Richard Warren would be highly speculative, and to do so would be on the strength of inferential reasoning"[30] Even if it were proved to be Richard Warren's sword (which it has not been), it still does not prove that John was his father.
This sword hilt was dated some 40 years ago by Darling to about 1600. This hilt is now supposed (without any reliable sourcing linking them) to indicate a link between Richard Warren and the cutler Lawrence Evans who was a warden of the Cutler's Guild about 1610 and had been step-father to Richard since 1587. As Darling pointed out, there were two swords listed in Plymouth Colony probate records for Richard and his two swords were apparently passed down to his two sons, as seen in their probate records. This evidence from probate records was summarized by Darling in his article, "A rare English Sword from Plymouth Colony" in the Canadian publication "Arms Collecting" 20(2):42-56 (electronic copy with a picture of this hilt is available from the librarian at Historic Deerfield Library, Deerfield, Massachusetts). Again, this train of suppositions is not deemed plausible by some. Recent y-DNA research in 2022 has found Richard Warren belongs in the Haplogroup E-M35. This rare haplogroup thus separates him from the usually expected haplogroups [R and I] found in England and indicates Richard Warren cannot descend from Robert of Nayland, England or any of the other ancestors linked to other men's test results on a major y-DNA database for Warren descendants. Some say there is no evidence provided in the form of wills, letters, land records, baptisms, etc. which even suggest that the identification of Richard Warren is correct. Very recent ethnicity reports for a person with three lineages to Richard Warren indicates he descended from Ashkenazi Jews stemming from western Europe. Furthermore, the Richard Warren who died in London in 1624 is linked to a son Luke and then back to Robert Warren of Nayland, Hertfordshire, on one major website. Given the numerous John, Richard and George Warrens, there is need for DNA testing before trying to link Richard Warren of the Mayflower to any long-established English family using only church records,
According to some, the final proof that the Mayflower passenger could not be the son of the armorer is that the armorer's son died in 1624. Richard Warren, cutler, of Grace Street parish (St. Bennet Gracechurch) was buried on 16 November 1624 at St. Peter's. It is presumed by some researchers that this is the Richard Warren, son of John Warren armorer, who was raised by his father-in-law Lawrence Evans, cutler.[31] Additional research on a probable uncle of the Mayflower man is expected to show the Richard who died in London in 1624 was a cousin of the Richard who died in Plymouth Colony in 1628. Another criticism is that the article does not address the missing baptisms of Richard Warren's five daughters born in England (none named Lettice), or the fact there were at least 6 Richard Warrens born in London alone who could have been the Mayflower passenger, two of them being a father and son pair.
As for the argument that passengers on the Mayflower did not follow the family naming patterns common in England in the 1500s and 1600s--examine the large families of the daughters of Richard Warren, the passenger. A clear example of a naming pattern is in the naming of daughter Sarah's daughters: Sarah [named for her mother], Elizabeth [named for her mother's mother]. Hester [named for father's mother], Mary, and Mercy. As Richard Warren, the passenger, had 5 granddaughters named Mercy, could it be that as 3 were either first or last-born, that these girls were delivered safely at birth through divine mercy???
Error: Incorrect LNAB of wife: The Warren Genealogy in 1854 identified the wife of Richard Warren as Elizabeth (Juett) Marsh.[32] This is incorrect. This was an attempt to identify Richard Warren with a Richard Warren found in the Visitations of Devon.[33] A Richard Warren did marry an Elizabeth Marsh, widow; however, she was only 14 years old when this Richard Warren died.[34][35] As noted above, his wife has recently been identified as Elizabeth Walker, daughter of Augustine Walker.
Further Research in Essex with Connection to London: The most recent attempt to identify the parents of Richard Warren finds him bap. 22 Sept. 1583 St. Mary the Virgin Parish, Newport, Essex, England ["Richard Warren, and some 50 years of research" by Louise Walsh Throop, California Mayflower Quarterly 47(2):37-39]. His father was another Richard Warren, bap. 18 Feb. 1564/5 St. James Church, Little Clacton, Essex, England [perhaps significantly, no father was named, in a period when no mothers were listed]. This elder Richard married 23 Sept. 1582 Joha[ne?] Hadsley. They apparently had just two children in Newport and the second child died young. Joha remarried 25 Nov. 1600 in Debden, Essex to William King. This William King was buried 1602 in Harwich, Essex with a very uncommon and unusual comment: "A maryner dwelling about London, which came out of the east country." Note: the master of the Mayflower in 1602 was still a resident of Harwich.

There is a landed family, in western Essex in the 1500s and before, which carries the same rare y-DNA grouping as two tested descendants of Richard Warren, the Mayflower passenger: E-M35. It is possible that Richard's father of the same name was an illegitimate son of someone from this landed family, thus accounting for the missing father in the 1565 baptismal record---and also possibly accounting for the ability of the Mayflower passenger to provide financial backing to the trans-Atlantic adventure in 1620 as well as the usual fare for the passage. Descent from this landed family would also account for the title "Mr." being used in written references to Richard Warren, the passenger, during his lifetime.

Richard would have paid for seven persons in his family party, embarking from London, and which would have required a payment of 70 pounds---a considerable amount in 1620! More research may not yield any documentation of this proposed link of a grandson to a landed Essex family. But the money trail might be illuminating. A landed family would have had funds to invest in this wild adventure in 1620. The head of the More family paid for the passage of four children plus another 60 pounds as a financial investment and possibly for supplies for the trip---for a total of 100 pounds. Richard Warren's ancestral family of Kelvedon, Essex could have supported his voyage with a similar amount expended and with a similar motive: to get this inconvenient relative and his large family far away in a distant, dangerous environment.

Note: distance between Newport, Essex and Great Amwell, Hertfordshire is ca 25 miles; distance between Newport, Essex and Kelvedon Hatch, Essex is ca 28 miles; and distance between Great Amwell, Hertsfordshire and Kelvedon Hatch, Essex is ca 19 miles.

With their passage already paid for, Richard Warren's wife and five daughters--who were apparently "left behind" in the final busy days involving the transfer of William Brewster's party of four and others to the Mayflower---would have been high on the list of passengers for the following ship. The Warren family thus were passengers on the unfortunate Paragon in 1622 and later on the Anne in 1623. Their successful trip was only 400 years ago!

Also note: the computer at FamilyTreeDNA seems to match testers with a y-DNA111 test and give an automatic mismatch if 10 or more of the 111 are not the same. This test is usually considered to be accurate for about 7 or 8 generations. The proposed landed Essex family would be about 16 generations back. It may be the 19 number mismatch between the 14 generations back to Richard Warren, passenger, and the Kelveden, Essex, family back about 16 generations is statistically significant as the mismatched test numbers are below 20.

Sources

  1. Richard Warren”, at Caleb Johnson’s MayflowerHistory.com website.
  2. "England Marriages, 1538–1973 ", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2RB-43X), Richard Warren, 1610.
  3. 3.0 3.1 Davies, Edward J. "The Marriage of Richard1 Warren of the Mayflower" in The American Genealogist, volume 78 number 2 (April 2003): pages 81-86. Available online at pdf file; AmericanAncestors.org link.
  4. "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J933-777 ), Richard Warren, 1585.
  5. "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NRWD-S8J), Elizabeth Walker, 1583.
  6. 6.0 6.1 6.2 6.3 6.4 6.5 Anderson, Robert Charles, The Great Migration Begins: Immigrants to New England 1620-1633, volume 3: P - W. (Boston: NEHGS, 1995): page 1935. Ancestry.com link; AmericanAncesstors.org link.
  7. "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J979-V2V : 19 September 2020), Wilim. Waren, 1557.
  8. "England Marriages, 1538–1973 ", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N286-B2H : 13 March 2020), Gulielmu. Waren, 1584.
  9. (Index-only listing:) England: Marriages, 1538-1973. Online database. AmericanAncestors.org. New England Historic Genealogical Society, 2014. (Original index: England Marriages, 1538-1973. FamilySearch, 2014.); https://www.americanancestors.org/DB544/rd/318536226 (by subscription)
  10. "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQ8Z-WZ3), Richarde Waren, 1576.
  11. ”England Marriages, 1538–1973 ", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLS8-B2N), Richard Waren, 1602.
  12. Anderson, Robert Charles. The Pilgrim Migration: Immigrants to Plymouth Colony 1620-1633. (Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society, 2004).
  13. Banks, Charles Edward. The English ancestry and homes of the Pilgrim Fathers ... (Baltimore: Genealogical Pub. Co., 1962) HathiTrust.org Pages 92-93.
  14. 14.0 14.1 14.2 14.3 14.4 Wakefield, Robert S., 1925-. Richard Warren of the Mayflower and his descendants for four generations. Beebe, Janice A; General Society of Mayflower Descendants. Publication date 1995.
  15. Shurtleff, Nathaniel B (ed.) Records of the colony of New Plymouth, in New England. Miscellaneous Records 1633-1689 Boston: (Press of William White, 1857): Vol 8 p 35.
  16. Roebling, Mrs Washington A. "Richard Warren of the Mayflower" The New England Historical & Genealogical Register (1901) Page 76-77, citing Plymouth County Deeds, II., II., 56.
  17. Pilgrim Village Families Sketch: Richard Warren. (1627 - 4 May 1689) married Priscilla Faunce (1634- 15 May 1707)." Mayflower Web Pages, by Caleb Johnson.
  18. Wikipedia contributors, "Richard Warren," Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard_Warren&oldid=1195237025 (accessed March 2, 2024).
  19. Bradford's History, Saints & Strangers.
  20. 20.0 20.1 Bradford, William and Winslow, Edward. Mourt's relation or journal of the plantation at Plymouth. Original published 1622. Dexter, Henry Martyn, 1821-1890, ed( Boston, J. K. Wiggin , 1865) p44 see also p 8.
  21. Caleb Johnson's Mayflower History : The Mayflower Compact : Richard Warren.
  22. Scott Deetz, Patricia; Fennell, Christopher. "Plymouth Colony Division of Land, 1623" The Plymouth Colony Archive Project. (histarch.illinois.edu Historical Archaeology and Public Engagement, Department of Anthropology at University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign : accessed 24 Aug 2016).
  23. Link to Division of Cattle : accessed 24 Aug 2016.
  24. Throop, Louise Walsh. "Richard Warren’s Father, John Warren" in The California Mayflower Quarterly, volume 46 number 4 (Oakland, CA: Society of Mayflower Descendants in the State of California, Fall 2022): pages 18-22. Revised article link.
  25. Gower, Glanville ed. A Register of All the Christninges, Burialles & Weddinges Within the Parish of Saint Peeters upon Cornhill, volume 1. (London: The Harleian Society, 1877). page 21.
  26. Soc.genealogy.medieval Discussion Group. "Richard "Mayflower Compact" Warren". (First post 26 June 2008 by Davis Sewell, see replies 2022). Google groups link.
  27. Gower, A Register of the Parish of Saint Peeters upon Cornhill, Vol. 1,pages 14, 15, 17, 21, 25.
  28. Gower, A Register of the Parish of Saint Peeters upon Cornhill, Vol. 1, page 133.
  29. Gower, A Register of the Parish of Saint Peeters upon Cornhill, Vol. 1,page 236.
  30. Anthony Darling, "A Rare English Sword from Plymouth Colony" Arms Collecting 20(2):42-56.
  31. Gower, A Register of the Parish of Saint Peeters upon Cornhill, Vol. 1, page 182.
  32. Warren, John Collins. Genealogy of Warren with some Historical Sketches. page 54.
  33. Colby, Frederic Thomas ed. Visitation of the County of Devon in the Year 1620. (London: Harleian Society Visitation Series volume 6, 1872): page 300.
  34. Roebling, Emily Warren. Richard Warren of the Mayflower and Some of His Descendants. (1901): page 4.
  35. Mayflower Descendant, volume 2 (1900): page 63.
See also:
  • Bradford, William; Samuel Morison ed. Of Plymouth Plantation, (New York: Random House, 1952).
  • Bradford, William, 1590-1657. Of Plimoth Plantation: manuscript, 1630-1650. State Library of Massachusetts. "List of Mayflower Passengers" in Bradford's Hand.
  • Bradford, William. History of Plymouth Plantation (Massachusetts Historical Society, 1856) p. 448 "Mr. Richard Warren; but his wife and chilren were lefte behind, and came afterwards." p. 453 "Mr. Richard Warren lived some 4. or 5. years, and had his wife come over to him, by whom he had 2 sons before he dyed; and one of them is maryed, and hath 2. children. So his increase is 4. But he had 5. doughters more came over with his wife, who are all maried, & living, & have many children."
  • Engstrom, Victoria B. "EEL RIVER VALLEY" (of 1627 land grants, 400 acres (1.6 km2) to Warren), Pilgrim Society Notes, Series One, Number 23, 1976, PilgrimHall.org webpage: PilgrimHall-EelRiverValley-RWarren-1976.
  • Johnson, Caleb. Pilgrim Village Families Sketch: Richard Warren Mayflower Web Pages.
  • Jones, Emma C. Brewster. The Brewster Genealogy, 1566-1907: a Record of the Descendants of William Brewster of the "Mayflower," (New York: Grafton Press, 1908).
  • Stratton, Eugene Aubrey , Plymouth Colony, Its History and Its People, 1620-1691. (Salt Lake City: Ancestor Publishers, 1986).
  • Nathaniel Morton, New England's Memorial (Cambridge, 1669).
  • "Richard & Elizabeth Warren in the records of the 17th century" (with wife), Pilgrim Hall Museum, Plymouth, MA, 1998-07-14, PilgrimHall.org webpage: PilgrimHall-WarrenRecords-1998: 1628 death of Richard (Morton book); 1673 death of Elizabeth.[1]
  • Mayflower Families Through Five Generations (Vol. 18, Pt. 1: Richard Warren); edited by Robert S. Wakefield.
  • Mayflower Families Through Five Generations (Vol. 18, Pt. 3 Richard Warren) Fifth Generation Descendants of Abigail 2, Nathaniel 2, and Joseph 2; edited by Robert S. Wakefield.
  • History of Plymouth plantation, 1620-1647, By William Bradford.
  • Massachusetts and More Genealogy Blog [2]
  • Savage New England Register, Vol. 4, Warren.
  • Soc.genealogy.medieval Discussion Group. "Richard "Mayflower Compact" Warren". (First post 26 June 2008 by Davis Sewell, see replies 2022). Google groups link.
  • Throop, Louise Walsh. "Richard Warren’s Father, John Warren" in The California Mayflower Quarterly, volume 46 number 4 (Oakland, CA: Society of Mayflower Descendants in the State of California, Fall 2022): pages 18-22. Available online Revised article here.
  • Wakefield, Robert S. Mayflower Families Through Five Generations (Vol. 18, Pt. 2: Richard Warren—Fifth Generation Descendants of Mary2, Anna2 and Elizabeth2).
  • Walsh, Ruth Berg , "The Search for Pilgrim Richard Warren's Parentage," Mayflower Quarterly, 51:109-112 (August 1985).
  • Waters, Henry Fitz-Gilbert. "Richard Warren of the Mayflower and some of his Descendants." in The New England Historical and Genealogical Register, 1901, Vol. 55:70-78.
  • Whittemore, Henry. Our New England Ancestors and Their Descendants, (New England Ancestral Publishing Co., 1900).

See also:

Wikipedia Links
WikiTree Links
  • History of Plymouth plantation, page 408




Comments: 84

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I am not a Mayflower passenger descendant but have always been interested in the subject. Joe Cochoit provides a good perspective on careful analysis of evidence and what if any conclusions one can draw, however tentative. One should always try to disprove as much as prove any proposed candidate for the Mayflower passenger Richard Warren's baptism. That's how we can overcome a tendency towards confirmation bias.

As I read the thread below I found myself agreeing with Joe that the Richard Warren death in London in 1624 - on its own - is stronger evidence AGAINST the armourer John being Mayflower Richard's father than all of the circumstantial historical context is evidence FOR the relationship. As an example of trying to disprove as well as prove, I then decided to take a quick peek at Ancestry's database "London, England, Wills and Probate, 1507-1858". Unfortunately it shows no armourer John in 1585 or wife Lettice (any wills they left could have been proved in other church courts though), but it does have the will of cutler Richard in 1624. He had children Luke, Lettice and Elizabeth. Lettice is indeed an uncommon name, so this is onomastic evidence one cannot readily dismiss. Cutler Richard who died in 1624 now looks even more like armourer John and wife Lettice's son than he did before.

Y-DNA evidence could help to disprove or support other baptism candidates, but Joe is right when he says the evidence so far is just not enough to support any hypothesis. DNA test results are needed from more of Mayflower Richard's male-line descendants (from both his sons) as well as from male-line descendants of the families of those possible candidates whose baptisms have been shortlisted.

I just want to add a statistic to help keep the search for Richard's baptism in context. In round numbers, there were about 12,000 "ancient" Church of England parishes in Britain, each with its own parish registers, ostensibly started in 1538. However the registers from no more than 50% of those parishes survive from before 1600, and only about 7% from 1538. Therefore, while it is possible that Richard Warren's baptism was one of those being considered (except perhaps that for cutler Richard above!), it is just as likely to be none of them, given that he was born before 1600.

To balance any perceived negativity in what I have said, if Richard's baptism can be found, it will be found with the right methodical approach, focusing on the available direct and indirect evidence first, then the circumstantial evidence.

posted by Don Hansen
edited by Don Hansen
Hello Profile Managers!

We are featuring this profile in the Connection Finder this week. Between now and Wednesday is a good time to take a look at the sources and biography to see if there are updates and improvements that need made, especially those that will bring it up to WikiTree Style Guide standards. We know it's short notice, so don't fret too much. Just do what you can.

Thanks!

Abby

posted by Abby (Brown) Glann
Warren-22744 and Warren-66 are not ready to be merged because: research in Essex is not finding much. Apparently this Warren family left no [land] records or wills. With about a 50% death rate for young children, there are probably no collateral lines to find. One clue, y-DNA = E-M35, indicates a connection to the Wright family of Essex [one of 3 founding families of Essex]. A 1565 bap., without father named, may indicate the grandfather of these two entries was a Wright.
posted by Louise Walsh Throop
So now I have found a record on the Drapers' Company records in London (actually several): 1) on 22 January 1596 Simon Adams was given freedom of London; 2) on or about 14 February 1609 Richard Warren was given freedom of London; 3) Richard then had his own apprentices: in 1610 Henry Melin/Mellyn, and in 1612 Nicholas Simpkins. [see free website londonroll.org, which has only been available for about 1.5 years].

These records fit into what is known/documented about Richard Warren. Richard would have served 7 years, ending in 1609. About a year later he married the youngest daughter of Augustine Walker: on 14 April 1610, being the Saturday after Easter Sunday, so accomplished inbetween stretches of the calendar when marriages were not conducted. Augustine's eldest daughter had married Simon Adams [Jr.]; it appears Richard had met his bride through his association with Simon Adams, another member of the Drapers' Guild. By becoming a freeman of London, Richard Warren could state he was "of London." With two apprentices, Richard had apparently set himself up in business weaving and selling wool cloth by 1612.

I just read the novel "The Lady Chapel" by Candace M. Robb" (1994), which describes the importance of the wool trade from England to France in 1365 AD; some 200 years later the growth of "wool towns" in Essex and the development of loom technology would have made it obvious to a twice-widowed mother that being a drapers' apprentice in London was a good way to go for her teen-aged son. For a description of the parents of Richard Warren, passenger on the Mayflower, see "Richard Warren, and some 50 years of research" in California Mayflower Quarterly 47(2):37-39 (Spring 2023). Both Richard Warren and his father Richard Warren had younger siblings who died young...sigh!...typical of the death rate for young children of the 1500s.

I also strongly suspect the three first daughters of Richard, the passenger, included twins---probably requiring wet nurses back at their grandfather's home in Great Amwell. The will of Augustine Walker gives half of the "goods & chattells" to daughter Elizabeth, implying she was living with him and caring for him. As Elizabeth was to receive the other half of these goods & chattells at the death of her step-mother, it is pretty certain Elizabeth was caring for her parents in their last years [1610-15]. [And did chattells include horses?.]

Comments welcomed.

posted by Louise Walsh Throop
edited by Louise Walsh Throop
So do we think we have found mayflower Richard’s father?
posted by Maria Warren
It's still speculative, but perhaps someone will file with the GSMD and seek their opinion.
posted by Bobbie (Madison) Hall
Most likely: both Richard Warren, passenger, and his wife Elizabeth Walker were bap. in same year. The recent digitization of the Draper's Company records and index has given us new data: for Richard Warren and his brother-in-law Simon Adams [both mentioned in will of Elizabeth's father Augustine Walker]. Maybe someone will digitize the bap. records in England for the 5 daughters of Richard Warren????....sooner than later.

The indexed entry for the death of one Richard Warren who was bur. in 1597 was added to recently with a summary of all his burials [starting in London!] and his illustrious ancestry -- thus telling us the death for the possible father of the passenger was not the 1597 given in California Mayflower Quarterly 47(2):38 (Spring 2023). So Richard Warren, passenger in 1620, came from Newport in Essex as he was bap. there in 1583; his brother Mathew Warren was bap. in March 1584/5 and bur. there some years later.......

Does the yDNA match of Warren with Wright, along with the absence of a father's first name for bap. of father Richard Warren in 1565 and also for his presumed sister Elizabeth in 1567, indicate some story the Wright family did not want to acknowledge? Was the putative father married at age 20 to stop the arrival of more Warren babies??? Any clues to the behavior of an extended English landed family towards the two children ca 1560s would be appreciated [Elizabeth died at age 1 month]. We really need more yDNA test results from Warren men with two or more Warren lineages.....to confirm the Warren-Wright match. Maria, see my e-mail to you,....and please twist your brother's arm as it sounds like he has 3 lineages to the passenger! Preferably, your father or his Warren brother would be better men to test, being one generation closer to the passenger Richard Warren....... I need an address to mail the free kit to him......OK??

So do we have the third secret on the Mayflower? First was the More children. Second was the six Warrens who were "left behind" to shield Brewster [with his party of 6, including the 2 youngest More children] from the King's minions. Did Cushman document these three secrets in some way??? There were documents found regarding the 4 More children; any other documents to be found??

posted by Louise Walsh Throop
Maria, thank you for forwarding your lineage as posted on ancestry. Your all-male Warren lineage gets back to three john Warrens:

1. Capt. John Warren m. Margaret Abbott he b. 1 Aug 1585 Harwich, Essex, ENG his son: 2. John Warren m. Michal B Jennison he b. 12 May 1622 Nayland, Suffolk, ENG his son: 3. john Warrin/Warren m. Abigail Hastings b. 21 May 1678 Watertown, Middlesex MA colony

See the Warren project housed with Familytreedna: the subgroup which brings together the descendants of the Warrens of Nayland yield the male haplogroup R, as I recall. Descendants of passenger Richard Warren test so far in haplogroup E. So any testing of your brother, male cousins, etc. will likely test in H, which is a common European haplogroup.

And if you do have another lineage to passenger Richard Warren, I did not find it on your ancestry pedigree. A search for "Richard Warren" on your pedigree just got me to wikipedia's article on him and my search was grabbed by Edge, Edge trys to grab control of my laptop a lot, which is why I don't use them.

Happy hunting for your Nayland Warrens and descendants. Thank you for making me a guest on your ancestry pedigree. That was very helpful.

Louise

posted by Louise Walsh Throop
edited by Louise Walsh Throop
Given the fact the wife of Richard Warren has been definitively identified as a daughter of Augustine Walker, shouldn't the "Reference Notes" immediately above the sources be deleted? This note only stated where his wife was not Elizabeth (Jewett) Marsh.
posted by Raymond Wing
His wife as Elizabeth Juett appears in many secondary sources long after it was disproved. We should probably keep it so people will understand this very common error. I have moved the discussion on the incorrect wife to Research Notes, along with a few more notes and sources.
posted by Joe Cochoit
I agree that the information about the Juett wife should be maintained in the profile's research notes or a Disproven Spouse section, your choice. At some point someone will want to attach an Elizabeth Juett again, and it's easiest to have the information already available to point to.
posted by Bobbie (Madison) Hall
edited by Bobbie (Madison) Hall
Suggest section titled "More Certain Origin" be renamed "disproved origin" instead.

Researcher Jan Wolfe notes that Richard Warren in the parish records of St. Peter upon Cornhill notes both Richard Warrens death in 1624 in England, and the birth of a son Luke in 1615.. If Richard Warren, son of John Warren armourer died in 1624 in England, he cannot be the same man as the mayflower passenger.

There are many Richard Warrens born in and around London in the appropriate timeframe. The onomastic argument that Richard's father was named John because one of Richard's son's 3rd son was named John is an extreme stretch, especially when viewed under the light that neither Richard nor Richard's other sons seemed to follow any such naming pattern consistent with this.

To suggest that RIchard warren, son of John Warren armorer was extremely well documented in the records here in this parish, except for the glaring omission of the baptism records of all 5 of his daughters is also a strong strike against this identification.

posted by Joe C
edited by Joe C
I Jan Wolfe's information published somewhere available online? Apologies if it is already included in one of the listed sources; if so, which one?

Thank you.

posted by S (Hill) Willson
Her comment is here: https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/QtFfYmpgfBI

The sources are as noted above. In the thread above I made some additional comments about the evidence providing not being an indication of the parents.

posted by Joe C
edited by Joe C
I believe Jan Wolfe's information is just a post in an SGM thread. I have read the article, and it completely fails to prove that Richard Warren of the Mayflower is the same person as Richard Warren son of John Warren armorer who was bap. at St. Peter's in 1580. Also, it is also near certain that the son of the armorer died in 1624. I can type up the arguments for and against this article and move that large "More Certain Origin" section to research notes.
posted by Joe Cochoit
I have removed the section =More Certain Origin= and placed a discussion of Louise Throop's article in the research notes. As noted, the article does not prove the parentage of Richard Warren and is almost certainly incorrect.

A copy can be found here: Throop, Louise Walsh. "Richard Warren’s Father, John Warren" in The California Mayflower Quarterly, volume 46 number 4 (Oakland, CA: Society of Mayflower Descendants in the State of California, Fall 2022): pages 18-22. Available online https://www.camayflower.org/uploads/1/2/5/1/125178701/mayflower_quarterly-fall_2022.pdf

Joe, I think your SGM link is wrong. The correct one is: Soc.genealogy.medieval Discussion Group. "Richard "Mayflower Compact" Warren". (First post 26 June 2008 by Davis Sewell, see replies 2022). https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/SPOof_rMGBk Google groups

posted by Joe Cochoit
Joe: the full title of my article is: "Richard Warren's Father, John Warren (E-M35, now E-V68, or E1b1b1a)" It looks like the Y-DNA result is significant, DNA does not lie.

Besides, the reuse of family first names is quite prominent in the grandchildren of Richard Warren. First daughter Mary names 3 daughters after siblings/mother. Second daughter Anna named one daughter after a sibling and a son after his father. Third daughter Sarah named all 4 daughters after either her or her husband's relatives; a 5th daughter Mercy seems to be one of the 3 granddaughters who were born first or last by their respective mothers----so apparently all 5 Mercys survived difficult deliveries and were saved by divine mercy. Fourth daughter Elizabeth is thought to have 11 children, with 7 given familiar family names. Fifth daughter Abigail had 5 possible children, with 2 daughters apparently named after her siblings. First son Nathaniel had 12 children, with 5 given familiar family names, and the typical naming pattern yielding grandfather's first name John for 6 of 12 familial names [and the last 3 children, all sons, have the same initials JW so was there a family heirloom such as a silver object with initials JW on it?]. Second son Joseph had 6 children with 4 carrying familial first names, and the first child named Mercy. It looks like first son Nathaniel believed in naming his children with familiar family first names.

posted by Louise Walsh Throop
How are the Y-DNA results significant? You have only two individuals who both descend from Cornelius Warren. The DNA can't say anything about the ancestry, much less the father, of Richard Warren.
posted by Joe Cochoit
Joe, you might want to read my follow-up article, "Richard Warren, and some 50 years of research." See https://www.camayflower.org/publications.html for the Spring 2023 issue pages 37-39. Naming children after living relatives appears common among Ashkenazi, while naming after deceased relatives appears common among Sephardic Jews. Another y-DNA tested family living in Western Essex, England from the early 1500s also tests E-M35; this landed family has the initials "JW." So apparently not all families derived from possible Ashkenazi ancestry were ejected from England in the 1500s. See the E-M35 project housed on FTDNA. And we need to know more of the Warren ancestors of the two cousins who have tested. My experience with the Forrest family of Scotland which matches Soule y-DNA is that environmental factors, in this case mustard gas in the first usage in WWI, played a role in adding to the STR mismatches in y-111 testing. [See the pertinent subgrouping in the Soule project housed at FTDNA.] While the computer cut-off for mismatches at FTDNA for the Y-111 test is said to be 10 and the two tested Essex families differ by 19 by my count, I am wondering if two separately surnamed lineages, being at least 4 men tested [for both W families] so 4 or more separate tested lineages, could have experienced in 450 years a bumper load of environmentally caused STR mismatches. And I am thinking other environmental factors, such as lead in paint or wallpaper, might also have been a factor over 450 years. Wasn't lead also an ingredient in cosmetics in earlier centuries?
posted by Louise Walsh Throop
I still don't see how any of this helpful. As I understand it, you still just have the two individuals which both descend from the same 18th century individual. It is not going to tell you anything about Richard Warren.

As Kay says below, you need to have multiple individuals who have good paper trails through both of his two sons to get back to Richard Warren. You can't even claim he is E-M35 haplogroup without that. Also saying he is E-M35 is not helpful. E-M35 is a major haplogroup which is over 20,000 years old. By the 16th century it was spread across Europe and Asia (albeit at a low frequency).

Also, you keep implying that E-M35 implies Ashkenazi ancestry. This is not true. While E-M35 is very common in Ashkenazi and Sephardi individuals (~20%), the reverse is not true. E-M35 is found literally around the globe and is not exclusive to or imply Jewish ancestry. The vast majority of E-M35 have no known Jewish ancestry.

With regard to environmental causes of STR mismatches, this again is not a thing. If it were (at the rates your are implying) then we would all have thousands of STR mutations, and DNA testing would be useless for genealogy.

posted by Joe Cochoit
Louise,

Autosomal DNA, like your 23andMe DNA test, is generally only useful back to about second or third great grandparents. Richard Warren is your 10th great grandfather. That's just too far back for atDNA.

To determine Richard Warren's yDNA haplogroup, you need to have at least one direct male-line descendant of Richard Warren, with a documented paper trail, take a yDNA test from Family Tree DNA. It would be even better if you can find several direct male-line descendants to test, preferably from each of his sons or grandsons.

posted by Kay (Johnson) Wilson
Kay, are you a descendant of Richard Warren? Two male descendants with all-male lineages, approved by GSMD, have tested with FTDNA and results are posted on the Mayflower grouping with FTDNA. Yesterday I heard from a customer service representative at 23andme; she said their atDNA testing went back 10 generations. Since both my parents were descended from Richard Warren, I have double the expected load of Warren atDNA on my 23andme test. Know anyone else with 2 or more lineages to Richard Warren, through one or both of his 2 sons?
posted by Louise Walsh Throop
Louise, Thanks for the information that there are two Richard Warren descendants in the Y-DNA Mayflower DNA project. Here is a link to that page, for those who are interested: https://mayflowerdna.org/wiki/index.php/Y-DNA It indicates that his haplogroup is E-M35.

If you want to show that Richard Warren is the son of John Warren, the amorer, the next step would be to find direct male line descendants of John Warren, to show that his haplogroup was also E-M35. That wouldn't "prove" he was Richard's father, but it would be strong evidence. But if John Warren's haplogroup is not E-M35, we could be certain that he was not Richard Warren's father.

I don't think that 23andMe is wrong in agreeing that you have atDNA from 10 generations back, but it isn't the whole story. The chance that you have ANY atDNA from any one specific 10th great grandparent is extremely small. Also, you have 4,096 10th great grandparents. Richard and Elizabeth Warren are two of those. Can you show that none of your other 4,094 could possibly have any Ashkenazi DNA, so that your Ashkenazi atDNA must have come from them?

You asked if I'm a descendant of Richard Warren. I am. And I don't have any Ashkenazi DNA. Which proves exactly nothing.

posted by Kay (Johnson) Wilson
edited by Kay (Johnson) Wilson
The article has been revised with the addition of a disclaimer and additional information provided by Caleb Johnson regarding the Richard Warren who died in 1624. Here is a link to the updated article: https://www.camayflower.org/uploads/1/2/5/1/125178701/mayflower_quarterly-fall_2022__rev_w_disclaimer_.pdf
posted by S (Hill) Willson
Do Ashkenazi Jews baptize their children? The finding of Ashkenazi atDNA in my 23andme Discover report---a new feature on that site--although faint for Warren, indicates to me that Richard Warren's wife was also likely of Ashkenazi descent. Anyone with expertise in such research? in these early centuries?? I consider an alternative explanation for the absence of a b./bap./m./d. record as a valid excuse for absent records. Thus I consider true an Eaton-Soule marriage [that GSMD will not accept] which has no marriage record about 1692---because grandfather of the bride was teaching elder [and thus logical officiant for granddaughter's marriages] but called before the Church in Plymouth to explain why his flock did not attend services in Plymouth "even in good weather." Poor old guy apparently did not like the trip into Plymouth to get scolded! Documentation standards for recent centuries do not always hold for research in more distant centuries---I find. And politics--modern and ancient-- also play a role in the demand for records: like the baptisms of the 5 daughters of Richard Warren. I repeat my call for someone with 2 or more lineages back to Richard Warren.
posted by Louise Walsh Throop
I'm sorry, but any autosomal DNA test taken by descendants of Richard Warren does not indicate even a little that Richard Warren, or his wife were Ashkenazi Jewish. Zero. There is virtually no possibility that any autosomal DNA marker from Richard Warren or his wife could have passed down unperturbed that many generations. Jewish people were expelled from England by Edward I and not returned until after the Mayflower sailed. There would not be well known and well-to-do folks traveling with the pilgrims who had not been baptized. Richard Warren has *millions* of american descendants and *many* of them also have jewish ancestors---much more recent jewish ancestors.

I, and you, have some 32,000 ancestors who were living at the time of Richard Warren or more recently. It is not rare or unusual that one or more of those folks was jewish. But the odds it was richard warren are vanishingly vanishingly tiny and there is no evidence to indicate such.

posted by Joe C
Did Anabaptists baptize their young children? Not really. So was Richard Warren favoring the Anabaptist belief?
posted by Louise Walsh Throop
I'm confused. Are you saying he intentionally didn't baptise them, or the baptismal records are not found, not extant? The Plymouth town clerk's records began in the 1680s. The earliest baptisms I find are about 1724 in the First Church. Most of the early children of the "Pilgrims" in Plymouth have no birth or baptismal record. Does this suggest all of them were Anabaptists or Ashkenazi Jews? This is wandering into the category of "well, it could have been because ..."
posted by Bobbie (Madison) Hall
The article has been revised with the addition of a disclaimer and additional information provided by Caleb Johnson regarding the Richard Warren who died in 1624. Here is a link to the updated article: https://www.camayflower.org/uploads/1/2/5/1/125178701/mayflower_quarterly-fall_2022__rev_w_disclaimer_.pdf
posted by S (Hill) Willson
Warren-1164 and Warren-66 appear to represent the same person because: Merging away profile.
posted by Anne B
"Uncertain Origin" section just redrafted, per G2G discussion.

There is now some redundancy of full-length citations associated with ref tags, but I am cautious about editing the citations b/c I'm not clear how to remove the redundancy while retaining such additional notes as "also online at _pdf file_...". Perhaps someone more familiar with the proper formatting would be kind enough to straighten that out....

posted by Christopher Childs
Deleting par. in "Uncertain Origin" re: possible m. record for father.

That record was for William _Walker_, not William _Warren_. Senior moment error....

posted by Christopher Childs
Thank you Chris. I think I've taken care of the duplicate citations.
posted by Anne B
Anne B, I have tried twice to post the following, but it never sticks. What am I doing wrong? My mother's article in 1985 mentions an article by Dobson, an expert on English swords, [Both my parents are descended from Richard Warren.] I am trying to get a copy of his lengthy article on the sword found in a midden near the Winslow house [now Museum] in Plymouth. Here is what I have teased out of the records....note the early death of John Warren, when Richard was a child, followed by remarriage of probable mother Lettice/Lettis. And note the early death records of at least 2 of 4 siblings of Richard, as well as a bap. record for Richard which made him 3 years older than his bride in 1610. This is all new work....and the theme/clue is the father John, armorer, apparently made swords. So, I propose the following: The baptism record of Richard Warren [b. 15 Jan 1579/80] gives his father as John Warren, armorer; bap 24 Jan 1579/80 [see "A register of all the Christninges, Burials and Wedings, Parish of Saint Peter's upon Cornhill" (London, 1877) vol. 1 p. 21]. Cornhill in London is 3.1 miles walk to Rotherhide, where master Christopher Jones lived after 1610.

There are 6 children of this John Warren in the parish records of St. Peter's of Cornhill in London: Jasper bap. 18 Feb 1569/70; John bap. 21 Jan 570/71 William bap. 5 March 1572/3 Susan b. 1 Feb 1575/6 bap. 2 Feb 1575/6 Richard b. 15 Jan 1579/80 bap. 24 Jan 1579/80 Elizabeth b. 23 March 1582/3 bap. 31 March 1583 The last five are all given as children of John Warren, armorer [St. Peter's Church, Vol. 1 pp. 14, 15, 17, 21, 25]....which harks back to a sword found in a midden ca 1981 at the Winslow House in Plymouth. John Warren, armorer, d. 12 Sept 1585 aged 50 yr of Plague, buried in west yard of St. Peter's [Vol. 1 p. 133]. His widow Lettis Warren, of John, armorer, m. 19 June 1587 Lawrence Evannes, of London, cutler, son of Richard Evannes [St. Peter's Vol. 1 p. 236]. One Lettice Grave/Grove was bap. 12 July 1541 [St. Peter's Vol. 1 p. 2] Lettis/Lettice is a relatively rare first name. This early death of Richard's father helps to explain his delayed m. record at age 30 in 1610 to Elizabeth Walker. As she was bap. Baldock in Sept 1583, she was slightly younger than Richard----as expected. These records in London conform to the expectation that Richard Warren, Steven Hopkins and Edward Dotte/Doty were "from London." As Jasper, John, Susan and Elizabeth appear to have died young , Richard's family was quite small.....with burial records in St. Peter's for John and Elizabeth, both being named children of John Warren, armorer [St. Peter's Vol. 1 pp. 14, 25]. Pending a marriage record for John Warren, armorer, and Lettice Grove ca 1578, the above appears to identify the parents of Richard Warren, who d. 1628 in Plymouth, Plymouth Colony. Comments are welcomed [email address removed] . Brother William Warren d. London 1619, so Richard really had nobody to stay in London for, except his wife and 5 daughters, who followed him to Plymouth Colony. Note: I just checked freereg.org.uk for baptisms of 5 daughters of Richard Warren; I am thinking he was a Separatist who did not believe in infant baptism!!...... somebody needs to find a will/etc. for John Warren in 1585, also a will for Lawrence Evans after 1587. All probably in London. Got a researcher who could do this?

posted by Louise Walsh Throop
Louise, has this theory of Richard's parents been presented to the General Society of Mayflower Descendants for their input? Or perhaps to Caleb Johnson?
posted by S (Hill) Willson
I believe Caleb would have seen my recent article, as he is a member of the California Mayflower, so receives their Quarterly. Since DNA does not lie, I lean on the DNA findings based on my 2 lineages back to Richard Warren, who was apparently haplogroup E-M53, as explained in my article. So from two different DNA tests we have a strong indication that Richard Warren was descended from western European Ashkenazi Jews. It appears he or a male-lineage ancestor converted [possibly to fade into the English landscape, what with the English attitude towards Jews ca 1270s and later]. The trick is someone has to have 2 or more lineages back to Richard Warren; then the just released Discover program at 23ndme identifies the western European grouping for Ashkenazi Jews; it helps to have other known jewish ancestry in the last 7 generations, so the computer threshold is met by the 23andme computer. Know any Warren descendants with 3 lineages, and willing to do a DNA test with 23andme??
posted by Louise Walsh Throop
Rephrasing my question, Louise: When I asked if the theory of Richard's parents had been presented to the General Society of Mayflower Descendants, or to Caleb Johnson for their input, I meant "prior to" publication, with them as peer reviewers. Based on your response, I can only conclude that neither GSMD or Caleb Johnson reviewed your recent article in the California Mayflower Quarterly before publication.
posted by S (Hill) Willson
Well, Caleb knew before publication....but, similar to his position in public about my finding of the parents of George Soule, passenger on the Mayflower, he is neutral in his response. As for GSMD, I do not intend to submit further articles to their Quarterly after what a low-level editorial assistant did to my last published item with them. The article in California Mayflower Quarterly was written to give an idea to newer researchers as to the sequence of research steps.....first the proposition based on onomastic research, then finding one baptism record that fit, followed by working up siblings, and death records for the resultant family, etc. My research into Guild history for details parallels my research into the printing industry for my research on George Soule---something earlier researchers had not done. Most genealogy researchers only look for b./m./d. data, supported in some cases by deeds and wills. I would appreciate your response to my email [given with the title of my latest article]. The families of Soule, and apparently Warren, moved around, as also did Cooke and Delano---all in the area of northern Europe and southern England. One of the tenets of the Guilds was support of widows and orphans of their members/brothers. Knowledge of such behavior helps in genealogical research. I find.
posted by Louise Walsh Throop
Louise, If your comment above about the email was directed towards me, I have not received any email from you. Would you please resend it?
posted by S (Hill) Willson
S Wilson, my comment about my email address was directed to anyone who wants to contact me offline. My email address is seen next to the title of my recent article in California Mayflower Quarterly. I welcome emails with additions/corrections to that article by persons who have read all 4 pages.
posted by Louise Walsh Throop
And research is needed to connect Lettice Grove/Grave with the first husband of Elizabeth (Walker) Warren's eldest sister Dorothie.
posted by Louise Walsh Throop
I have no idea why you couldn't make the change work. I added it to the profile, since it was still in drafts. As for a researcher to look for the will. Perhaps ask in G2G.
posted by Anne B
[Comment Deleted]
posted by Christopher Childs
edited by Christopher Childs
deleted by Christopher Childs
[Comment Deleted]
posted by M Smith
deleted by M Smith
m, the G2G discussion has covered the ground of my comment, and then some, so I've deleted the comment.

I disagree categorically, however, with your slap at those of us who spend significant amounts of time "sitting at home clicking around the internet". That sitting around and clicking has turned up a vast array of newly accessible, corrective information about early migrants, on this website and others. It is in fact the basis for nearly the entire the work of the PGM Project, for which I and many others volunteer our time.

posted by Christopher Childs
Eel River? pg. 150 "At the partition of lands in 1623, Richard Warren's lot was assigned near Eel River. The farm has continued in the possession of his posterity til within a few years. See Hutchinson's Mass. ii. 462; Morton's Memorial p. 135; Thacher's Plymouth .p.71.

Chronicles of the Pilgrim Fathers of the Colony of Plymouth 1602-1625. by Alexander Young. DaCapo Press NY 1971. found online. or at uconn lib... Deborah Glantz Hanna. I have connected to Richard through my Grinnells.

posted by Deborah (Glantz) Hanna
Hi Mark,

Christopher Warren and Alice Webb were once hopefully assumed to be the parents of Richard Warren (this supposition goes back a hundred years or so), but that was disproven decades ago -- it was a different Richard Warren.

posted by [Living Schmeeckle]
I believe myself to be a Warren descendant, and the GEDCOM of a match to my profile on GEDMatch indicates putative parents for Richard Warren as Christopher Warren and Alice Webb. I did not see parents mentioned in the biography section as a note ( 6 Oct 2013 at 11:23 GMT Becky (Nally) Syphers) below suggests they would be so I am including that information here rather than presuming to edit the record itself.
posted by Anonymous Hankins
Warren-1164 and Warren-4596 appear to represent the same person because: Warren-4596 is an empty unattached profile. I checked the changes , no history. A merge would be appropriate.
posted on Warren-1164 (merged) by Anonymous Roach
The link in the sources section is broken - January 29, 2014.
posted on Warren-1164 (merged) by Rebecca Elizabeth (Nally) Syphers (1943-2023)
Is this the Mayflower passenger? If so, the wife should be Elizabeth Walker.
posted on Warren-1164 (merged) by Rebecca Elizabeth (Nally) Syphers (1943-2023)
Please add an approximate date of birth to this profile of Richard Warren. Thanks, Becky Syphers
posted on Warren-1164 (merged) by Rebecca Elizabeth (Nally) Syphers (1943-2023)

Unmerged matches › Richard Warren (bef.1583-)