Saier (Quincy) de Quincy

Saher (Quincy) de Quincy (abt. 1155 - 1219)

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Sir Saher (Saier) "1st Earl of Winchester" de Quincy formerly Quincy aka de Kenci
Born about in Winchester, Hampshire, Englandmap
Ancestors ancestors
Husband of — married before [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Died in Damietta, Egyptmap
Profile last modified | Created 2 Mar 2014 | Last significant change: 10 May 2019
15:52: David Douglass removed David Douglass as manager for profile of Saher (Quincy) de Quincy (abt.1155-1219). [Thank David for this]
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Magna Carta Surety Baron
Saier de Quincy was one of the twenty-five medieval barons who were surety for Magna Carta in 1215.
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Saer de Quincy, 1st Earl of Winchester[1]


Saher de Quincy's first and only wife was Margaret Beaumont. Saher died on crusade in 1219, and Margaret remained a widow and died 12 Jan 1234/5.[2]

Note: Do not add Margar Harnell as a wife of Saher de Quincy (not supported by evidence)
Saher de Quincy and Margaret Beaumont of Leicester had "5 sons (Robert; Sir Roger, 2nd Earl of Winchester; Sir Robert; John; and Reynold) and 3 daughters (Lorette, wife of William de Valoines; Hawise, wife of Hugh de Vere, 4th Earl of Oxford; and Orabel, wife of Sir Richard de Harcourt)." Note that two of his sons were named Robert.[3][4]

Saher de Quincy per Burke's Peerage
"Saier de Quincy was created Earl of Winchester by King John about the year 1210. This nobleman was one of the lords present at Lincoln when William, King of Scotland, did homage to the English monarch, and he subsequently obtained large grants and immunities from King John; when, however, the baronial war broke out, his lordship's pennant waved on the side of freedom and he became so eminent amongst those sturdy chiefs that he was chosen one of the celebrated twenty-five barons appointed to enforce the observance of Magna Carta."
"Adhering to the same party after the accession of Henry III, the Earl of Winchester had a principal command at the battle of Lincoln and, there being defeated, was taken prisoner by the royalists. But submitting in the following October, he had restitution of all his lands and proceeded soon after, in company with the Earls of Chester and Arundel and others of the nobility, to the Holy Land where he assisted at the siege of Damietta, anno 1219, and d. the same year in his progress towards Jerusalem."
"His lordship m. Margaret, younger sister and co-heir of Robert Fitz-Parnell, Earl of Leicester, by which alliance he acquired a very considerable inheritance, and had issue, Robert, Roger, and Robert. At the decease of the earl, his 2nd son, Roger de Quincy, had livery of his father's estates. "[5]

Biographical Sketch of Saer de Quincy by Professor Nigel Saul of the
Magna Carta 800th Anniversary Committee
"Saer de Quincy’s career is illustrative of the complex of ties that held the English and Scottish nobilities together as part of an international chivalric elite whose interests spanned personal and regnal allegiances. The son of Robert de Quincy (d. 1197) and his wife Orabile, daughter of Ness, lord of Leuchars in Fife, he acquired English interests by virtue of his marriage to Margaret (d. 1235), daughter of Robert, earl of Leicester (d. 1190). Another member of his family, an uncle likewise called Saer, had served Henry II in Normandy in the 1180s and his son in turn, also confusingly called Saer, acquired lands in England which eventually were to descend to his namesake.
"Saer’s early career was spent mainly in Scotland. In the 1180s and 1190s he witnessed several charters of the Scottish kings and confirmed his parents’ grants to Newbattle Abbey, near Edinburgh, and made new gifts to the abbeys of Dunfermline and Cambuskenneth. Following his father’s inheritance of the other Saer’s lands he moved to England and entered the service of Richard the Lionheart, fighting alongside the king in 1198. In 1202 and 1203 he served with John in Normandy, being appointed with Robert FitzWalter joint castellan of the strategic Norman stronghold of Vaudreuil. In the spring of 1203 the pair, offering no resistance, surrendered the castle to King Philip of France, who was then over-running Normandy, and John in disgust refused to contribute to their ransom. There is evidence that Saer and Robert may have contracted a relationship of brotherhood-in-arms: Saer’s arms before he became earl bore a small shield bearing Robert’s arms of a fess between two chevrons, while Robert’s surviving seal carries the arms adopted by Saer after he became an earl.
"In 1204 the death without issue of his brother-in-law, the earl of Leicester, brought a dramatic improvement in his fortunes, as the earl’s heirs were his two sisters, one of whom was Saer’s wife. By 1207 a partition of the family’s estates had been made, and Saer, by right of his wife, found himself taking over valuable and extensive lands in the English Midlands, the other part of the inheritance going to the second sister, the wife of Simon de Montfort the elder. In recognition of his enhanced status, Saer was awarded the title of earl of Winchester. From this time on, he was often employed in John’s service, leading an embassy to Scotland in 1212 and acting as justiciar between 1211 and 1214.
"Despite his apparent closeness to John, however, he had unresolved grievances relating to properties of which he felt he had been deprived, notably Mountsorrel castle in Leicestershire, a part of his wife’s inheritance that King John had denied him. In 1215 he went over to the opposition, joining their ranks at his principal residence of Brackley (Northants.). He marched with the rebels to London and was present at Runnymede. When war erupted again in October between the king and his opponents, he and another of the Twenty Five, the earl of Hereford, headed an embassy to France to seek French assistance and to offer the crown to Philip’s son, Louis. In January 1216 he returned to England with a force of French knights, followed in May by the dauphin and his army.
"Although John’s death later in the year presented an opportunity for reconciliation between rebels and royalists, Quincy remained steadfast in his allegiance to the former and their champion Louis. In the spring of 1217 he learned that his rival, Ranulph, earl of Chester, was besieging Mountsorrel, and on 30 April he and FitzWalter led an army to its relief, only to find on arrival that the siege had been lifted. They then turned east to attack the royalist-held castle of Lincoln, unaware that a royal army was coming to its relief, and under the walls of Lincoln, on 20 May, they were defeated. Saer himself was taken prisoner. In September he was released as part of the general settlement and he went on to play a respectable part in the Minority government of Henry III. In November he was a witness to the reissue of Magna Carta and issue of the Charter of the Forest.
"In the spring of 1219 he embarked on crusade to assist in the siege of the Egyptian port of Damietta in the company of his son Roger, Robert FitzWalter and William, earl of Arundel. Soon after his arrival in Egypt, however, he fell ill, and he died on 3 November. In accordance with his instructions, he was buried at Acre and the ashes of his organs returned to England for interment at Garendon Abbey (Leics.), of which he was patron.
"Saer’s career affords a good illustration of the role that a dispute over property could play in determining political allegiance. The same point emerges with equally clarity from other periods of instability in the Middle Ages, notably the civil war of King Stephen’s reign in the 1140s. Saer was one of the most experienced administrators in the ranks of the opposition, having served as a baron of the exchequer and a justice of the bench, and was heavily involved in the negotiations with the king that led to the making of Magna Carta."

Runnymede - the Magna Carta - Runnymede, England The following story of Runnymede and the Magna Carta pertains to all countries based on English Common Law and the Freedoms we associate with our form of government. The names following this brief story are our family's direct ancestors who were known as the "Magna Carta Barons" - those who insisted that King John sign this great document. As an ironic note - King John is also one of our direct ancestors. - Egham Chamber of Commerce

Saher de Quincy (1155-1219)

Saher de Quincy was one of the 25 sureties of the Magna Charta, for which he was excommunicated. His singular Christian name of Saher, or Saier, is a likely a corruption from the Saxon Segher, Sigher, or Seagar, a Conqueror. Eliza S. Quincy refers to him as "John de Quincy, created Earl of Winchester by King John, 1207. He was a leader of the Barons who forced King John to sign the Magna Charta."[6]

The following is from SAHER de Quincy in Medieval Lands[7]

SAHER de Quincy, son of ROBERT de Quincy & his first wife Orabilis of Mar ([1165/70]-Damietta 3 Nov 1219, bur Acre). The primary source which confirms his parentage has not yet been identified. He was created Earl of Winchester before 10 Feb 1207. He supported the barons against King John and was one of the 25 men chosen in Jun 1215 to enforce obedience of Magna Carta, being excommunicated by the Pope in Dec 1215. He went with Robert FitzWalter to invite Louis de France to England in early 1216, his lands being seized by King John as a consequence and granted to William Marshal, son of the Earl of Pembroke. He returned to the allegiance of King Henry III in Sep 1217 and his lands were restored to him 29 Sep 1217. He joined the [5th] Crusade in 1219 and died at the siege of Damietta. The Annals of Dunstable record that comes Wintoniæ took the cross in 1219 but died, adding in a later passage that he died in 1220. The Chronicle of Ralph of Coggeshall records the death in 1220 of "Saerus de Quenci comes Wintoniensis" while on pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

m (before 1190) MARGARET of Leicester, daughter of ROBERT de Beaumont Earl of Leicester & his wife Pernelle de Grantmesnil ([before 1172] [19]-[12 Jan/12 Feb] 1235). A history of the foundation of St Mary´s abbey, Leicester names Amiciam primogenitam et Margaritam juniorem as the two daughters of Robertus and his wife Petronillam filiam Hugonis de Grantmenyl, adding that Margaret married Sayero de Quincy. A charter of King Edward I confirmed donations to Garendon Abbey among which by Margareta comitissa Wyntoniæ, soror Roberti comitis Leycestriæ.

Saher & his wife had [seven] children:

1. ROBERT ([1187/90] [22]-London 1217). The husband of Hawise of Chester was, according to the Complete Peerage, either Robert son of Robert de Quincy [23] (about whose existence there appears to be no other evidence) or Robert eldest son of Saher de Quincy Earl of Winchester [24]. However, the (undated) charter of Saher Earl of Winchester, relating to the grant of Bukby, Grantesset, Bradcham and Herdwick resolves the matter conclusively as it clearly states that Hawise was the wife of his eldest son Robert [25]. Robert was excommunicated with his father in Dec 1215. The Annals of Waverley record the death in 1217 of “Robertus de Quinci, filius Seeri de Quinci” [26]. He was accidentally poisoned through medicine prepared by a Cistercian monk [27]. m (before 1208) HAWISE of Chester, daughter of HUGH Earl of Chester & his wife Bertrade de Montfort ([1175/81] [28]-[6 Jun 1241/3 Mar 1243). The Annales Londonienses record that "Ranulphus comes Cestriæ" had four sisters, of whom "quarta…Hawisia" married "Roberto de Quenci" [29]. Ctss of Lincoln [Apr 1231/1232] on the resignation of her brother of this Earldom in her favour [30]. Robert & his wife had one child:
a) MARGARET (before 1208 [31]-Hampstead Mar 1266, bur Clerkenwell, Church of the Hospitallers). The Annales Londonienses name "Margaretam…comitissa Lincolniæ" as the daughter of "Hawisia…de Roberto de Quency" [32]. A manuscript narrating the descent of Hugh Earl of Chester to Alice Ctss of Lincoln records that “Johanni de Laci constabulario Cestriæ” married “Roberto de Quincy…filiam Margaretam comitissam Lincolniæ” [33]. A manuscript history of the Lacy family records that “Johannes de Lacy primus comes Lincolniæ” married “Margaretam filiam Roberti Quincy comitis Wintoniæ nepotem Ranulphi comitis Cestriæ” after the death of his first wife [34]. The Annals of Tewkesbury record the marriage “circa Epiphaniam Domini” in 1241 of “Walterus Marescallus comes” and “comitissam Lincolniæ…Margeriam, uxorem quondam Johannis comitis Lincolniæ” [35]. The primary source which confirms her third marriage has not yet been identified. The Annals of Worcester record the death in 1266 of “Margareta comitissa Lincolniæ” [36]. The Annals of Winchester record the death “apud Hamstede” in 1266 of “Margareta comitissa Lyncollniæ” [37]. m firstly (before 1221) as his second wife, JOHN de Lacy, son of ROGER de Lacy & his wife Maud de Clare ([1192]-22 Jul 1240, bur Stanlaw, later transferred to Whalley). He was created Earl of Lincoln in 1232. m secondly (6 Jan 1242) WALTER Marshal Earl of Pembroke, son of WILLIAM Marshal Earl of Pembroke & his wife Isabel Ctss of Pembroke (after 1198-1245). m thirdly (before 7 Jun 1252) RICHARD de Wilteshir .
2. ROGER de Quincy (-25 Apr 1264, bur [Brackley]). He succeeded his father in 1219 as Earl of Winchester, but was not recognised as such until after his mother's death [38]. He succeeded his father-in-law in 1234 as hereditary Constable of Scotland, de iure uxoris. His Earldom reverted to the crown on his death. m firstly HELEN of Galloway, daughter of ALAN Lord of Galloway & his first wife Helen de l'Isle (-after 21 Nov 1245, bur Brackley). The Annales Londonienses name "Eleyn countesse de Wynton" as eldest of the three daughters of "la primere fille Davi" and "Aleyn de Gavei", naming "Margarete countesse de Ferreres et Eleyne la Zusche et la countesse de Bougham" as her three daughters [39]. Earl Roger's first marriage with the daughter of Alan of Galloway is recorded by Matthew of Paris [40]. m secondly (before 5 Jun 1250) as her second husband, MAUD de Bohun, widow of ANSELM Marshal Earl of Pembroke, daughter of HUMPHREY de Bohun Earl of Hereford and Essex & his wife Maud de Mandeville (-Groby, Lincolnshire 20 Oct 1252, bur Brackley41). Her death is recorded by Matthew of Paris, who states that she was daughter of the Earl of Hereford but does not give her own name, that she was her husband's second wife [41]. m thirdly (before 5 Dec 1252) as her second husband, ELEANOR Ferrers, widow of WILLIAM de Vaux, daughter of WILLIAM de Ferrers Earl of Derby & his first wife Sibyl Marshal of Pembroke (-before 26 Oct 1274, bur Leeds Priory). The Chronicle of Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire names "Agnes, secunda Isabella, tertia Matilda, quarta Sibilla, quinta Johanna, sexta Alianora, septima Agatha" as the seven daughters of "Willielmo de Ferrers comiti Derbiæ" and his wife "quarta filia…Willihelmi Marescalli…Sibilla", adding that "Alianora sexta filia" was "comitissa de Wintonia" and died childless [42]. The Annals of Ireland record that “Sibilla comitissa de Ferreys” had seven daughters (in order) “quinta, Elianora de Varis, quæ fuit uxor comitis Wintonie…” [43]. Matthew of Paris records her husband's remarriage soon after the death of his second wife, but does not name his third wife [44]. She married thirdly (1267) as his second wife, Roger de Leyburn. Earl Roger & his first wife had three children:
a) MARGARET de Quincy (-before 12 Mar 1281). The Annales Londonienses name "Margarete countesse de Ferreres et Eleyne la Zusche et la countesse de Bougham" as the three daughters of "Eleyn countesse de Wynton" [45]. m ([1238]) as his second wife, WILLIAM de Ferrers, son of WILLIAM de Ferrers Earl of Derby & his wife Agnes of Chester (-May 1254, bur Merevale Abbey). He succeeded his father in 1247 as Earl of Derby.
b) ELIZABETH de Quincy . The Annales Londonienses name "Margarete countesse de Ferreres et Eleyne la Zusche et la countesse de Bougham" as the three daughters of "Eleyn countesse de Wynton" [46]. m ALEXANDER Comyn Earl of Buchan, son of WILLIAM Comyn Earl of Buchan & his wife Margaret Ctss of Buchan (-before 6 Apr 1290).
c) ELENA de Quincy (-before 20 Aug 1296). The Annales Londonienses name "Margarete countesse de Ferreres et Eleyne la Zusche et la countesse de Bougham" as the three daughters of "Eleyn countesse de Wynton", naming "Roger la Zusche" as son of "Eleyne la Zusche" and "de Roger, Aleyn" [47]. m ALAN la Zouche [Justiciar of Ireland], son of ROGER la Zouche & his wife Margaret --- (-killed in battle London 10 Aug 1270).
3. HAWISE ([1200/12] [48]-3 Feb after 1263, bur Earl's Colne). The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage has not yet been identified. m (after 11 Feb 1223) HUGH de Vere Earl of Oxford, son of ROBERT de Vere Earl of Oxford & his wife Isabel de Bolebec ([1210]-before 23 Dec 1263, bur Earl's Colne).
4. LORETTE . The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage has not yet been identified. m WILLIAM de Valognes of Panmure, co. Forfar, Chamberlain of Scotland, son of PHILIP de Valognes & his wife --- (-1219).
5. ROBERT ([1217/19] [49]-Aug 1257). The primary source which confirms his parentage has not yet been identified. m (1237 before 5 Dec) as her second husband, HELEN of Wales, widow of JOHN "le Scot" Earl of Huntingdon and Chester, daughter of LLYWELLYN ap Iorwerth Fawr ("the Great") Prince of Wales & his second wife Joan [illegitimate daughter of John King of England] (-1253 before 24 Oct). The Annals of Dunstable record that “Johannes comes Cestriæ” died in 1237 and “eius uxor…filia Lewelini” married “Roberto [de Quinci]” against her father´s wishes [50]. The primary source which confirms her name has not yet been identified. Robert & his wife had three children:
a) ANNE . The primary source which confirms her parentage has not yet been identified. A nun.
b) JOAN de Quincy (-25 Nov 1285). The primary source which confirms her parentage and marriage has not yet been identified. m as his second wife, HUMPHREY de Bohun, son of HUMPHREY de Bohun Earl of Hereford and Essex & his first wife Maud de Lusignan (-Beeston Castle, Cheshire 27 Oct 1265, bur Combermere Abbey).
c) HAWISE ([1250]-before 27 Mar 1285). m (before 5 Feb 1268) as his second wife, BALDWIN Wake, son of HUGH Wake & his wife Joan de Stuteville ([1237/38]-before 10 Feb 1282).
6. JOHN . He is mentioned in the Brackley charters [51]. His position in the order of birth of his siblings is unknown, but he may have been older than his brother Robert (the younger) if the speculation about the latter's date of birth (see above) is correct.
7. [ORABILIS . A manuscript relating to Ranton Priory, Staffordshire records that “Ricardo de Harecourt” married “Orabillam sororem Rogeri de Quinci”, and lists their descendants [52]. m RICHARD de Harcourt, son of WILLIAM de Harcourt of Ellenhall, Staffordshire & his wife Alicia Noel.]


  1. Saer de Quincy, 1st Earl of Winchester
  2. Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, Royal Ancestry series, 2nd edition, 4 vols., ed. Kimball G. Everingham, (Salt Lake City, Utah: the author, 2011), Vol III, pages 403-407
  3. Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, Royal Ancestry series, 5 vols., ed. Kimball G. Everingham, (Salt Lake City, Utah: the author, 2013), Vol IV, pages 437-441
  4. Sir Saher de Quincy, "Our Royal, Titled, Noble, and Commoner Ancestors and Cousins" (website, compiled by Mr. Marlyn Lewis, Portland, OR; accessed August 11, 2015)
  5. Sir Bernard Burke, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peerages, Burke's Peerage, Ltd., London, England, 1883, p. 447, Quincy, Earls of Winchester
  7. Charles Cawley. Saher I de Quincy, entry in "Medieval Lands" database (accessed 20 April 2019)
  • Marlyn Lewis, database online, Our Royal, Titled, Noble and Commoner Ancestors & Cousins, accessed 3 June 2014, entry for Saher de Quincy.
  • "Medieval Lands", online database, Charles Cawley, accessed 3 June 2014, Copyright: "This data may be used for personal study only. Commercial reproduction is strictly prohibited."
  • Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, Royal Ancestry series, 2nd edition, 4 vols., ed. Kimball G. Everingham, (Salt Lake City, Utah: the author, 2011), Vol III, pages 403-407
  • Sir Bernard Burke, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peerages, Burke's Peerage, Ltd., London, England, 1883, p. 447, Quincy, Earls of Winchester
  • Saer de Quincy, 1st Earl of Winchester, database online, Wikipedia, accessed 3 June 2014, entry for Saer de Quincy, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License;
  • The Complete Peerage, "Winchester"
  • Cawley, Charles. "Medieval Lands": A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families © by Charles Cawley, hosted by Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG). See also WikiTree's source page for MedLands.
  • John Schuerman Magna Carta surety, Vol. XXVI, Issue No. 2, August 2006
  • Note NI3916 SOURCES: 1. Q940 D2t, p. 100, 103, 113, 99, Plantagenet Ancestry
  • The Complete Peerage vol 10 p. 215
  • The Roll of Battle Abbey, p. 93-94
  • Doomsday Bk p. 7-8
  • Dugdale's Baronage of England vol 1 p. 751
  • The Battle Abbey Roll vol 1 p. 26, vol 3 p. 47-49
  • Peerage of the British Isles, 1883 p. 447
  • The Complete Peerage vol 12, pt 2, p. 751
  • Some Descendants of Charlemagne
  • Additional information on
  • ••Mary Hillard Hinton, Genealogist, Raleigh, NC •Extinct and Dormant Peerages, 1831 •Magna Carta Barons and their Descendants, pgs. 159, 241, 269, 270, 292 •Virginia Heraldica, pgs. 66, 69, 87, 88 •Ancestral Papers #119, of the National Society of Runnymeade •Wurt's Magna Carta •The Carter Family


This page has been edited according to Style Standards adopted by January 2014. Click the Changes tab to see edits to this profile; from that list, click WikiTree IDs other than Quincy-226 to see changes to those profiles prior to being merged.

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this profile.

Magna Carta Project

Gateway Ancestors
Descendants of Magna Carta surety barons who immigrated to the Americas are referred to as Gateway Ancestors. Douglas Richardson documents the ancestry of many who immigrated before 1700 in his Magna Carta Ancestry (#Richardson). WikiTree's Magna Carta project exists "to categorize and improve profiles of the twenty-five medieval barons who were surety for Magna Carta; about two hundred proven American colonial Gateway Ancestors who were their descendants; and the documented lineages that connect them." Using Richardson as its foundational source, the project has identified most Magna Carta Gateway Ancestors with profiles in WikiTree (collected in the category Gateway Ancestors).
For profiles of descendants and Gateway Ancestors of Sir Saier de Quincy that have been improved and categorized by the Magna Carta project, see Quincy-226 Descendants (see this index for links to other surety barons and category pages for their descendants).
Magna Carta Project Maintenance Categories:
  • Needs Re-review: A bit much cut/paste. Perhaps re-review should restructure info so that we retain Professor Saul's article intact (we have his permission to post it), but then use inline citations from other sources for a genealogical "vitals" section? ~ Noland-165 04:27, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Needs Source Check: The template {{FMG}} is being retired, and <span ids are no longer ok to use in sources (see Help:Recommended Tags). Cawley citations need to be updated (see Space:Medieval Lands for cut/paste formats). ~ Noland-165 04:27, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

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Images: 8
Saher IV de Quincy
Saher IV de Quincy

Saher IV de Quincy coat of arms
Saher IV de Quincy coat of arms

Charter of King John to the men of Andover
Charter of King John to the men of Andover

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Saier de Quincy Magna Carta Baron

Saier de Quincy, Magna Carta Baron
Saier de Quincy, Magna Carta Baron

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On 11 Sep 2018 at 18:23 GMT April (Dellinger) Dauenhauer wrote:

Liz - you can take removing scroll boxes here off your list - I removed all three that were on this profile.

Now the profile is on my list to combine repetitive text into a smooth narrative:)

On 18 Dec 2017 at 15:32 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

Hi! I've put this on my to-do list for 2018, but if someone else wanted to tackle it...

This profile needs to be redone because scroll boxes use coding that is no longer allowed in WikiTree - see this page for policy, posted in response to my G2G question.

Cheers, Liz

On 1 Mar 2017 at 07:30 GMT April (Dellinger) Dauenhauer wrote:

Regarding the Comment by Chase Ashley on the use of "SIR":

Saher de Quincy is written SIR SAHER DE QUINCY by Richardson in Royal Ancestry, Vol IV, page 439.

Regardless that there may be more to it than can be covered here, and this era produces conflicting opinions among experts, it is my opinion WikiTree should continue to use "SIR" unless a question in G2G produces changes in the guidelines.

On 28 Feb 2017 at 23:56 GMT Chase Ashley wrote:

Unless an original record can be produced that shows he was called "Sir", it should be deleted as a prefix since "Sir" supposedly wasn't used as an honorific in England until 1297 and, in any event, was for lesser mortal like knights and baronets.

On 17 Jun 2016 at 14:32 GMT April (Dellinger) Dauenhauer wrote:

I agree Jack, that delinking with the category Legends is a good solution to Margar.

It is because Richardson and also Medieval Lands both are in agreement on this family that I am confident of Margar's status as a Legend.

On 17 Jun 2016 at 13:10 GMT Jack Day wrote:

Having looked at April's write up, I added Category: Legends to Margar Harnell's bio. The decision that really needs to be made is whether Margar is simply an error that needs to be merged away, or a "legend" -- one of those nonexistent people who will keep getting added back if we don't leave a documented profile out there to keep that from happening. With the documentation April has provided, she already qualifies as a legend; she simply needs to be delinked from other profiles.

On 17 Jun 2016 at 03:56 GMT April (Dellinger) Dauenhauer wrote:

Margar Harnell IS NOT the wife of Saher de Quincy.

Please read the comments and the text I've placed on Margar Harnell and on her son Robert "a crusader" Quincy, and on Robert FitzHarnell.

This set of profiles have been documented only with trees and with gedcoms, and are sadly confused.

Using the Magna Carta Project recommended sources of Medieval Lands and of Magna Carta Ancestors and Royal Ancestors by Douglas Richardson, I have documented the likely sources of the confusion in the text and in the comments on those profiles.

Will the PMs for Saher, his wife Margaret, and their eldest son Robert read and consider if it makes sense to merge those profiles as requested. Their presence is confusion.


On 15 Apr 2013 at 04:01 GMT Vic Watt wrote:

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Categories: Magna Carta | Surety Barons | Magna Carta Project Needs Re-review | Magna Carta Project Needs Source Check