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Roger (Cailly) de Cailly (1075 - aft. 1120)

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Roger de Cailly formerly Cailly
Born in Cailly, Normandy, Francemap
Ancestors ancestors
Son of and [mother unknown]
[sibling(s) unknown]
Husband of — married [date unknown] [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Died after [location unknown]
Profile manager: Rand Prouse private message [send private message]
Profile last modified 10 Oct 2018 | Created 4 Nov 2014
This page has been accessed 230 times.

Biography

In 1120 Roger de Cailly made a gift of land in Lincolnshire, which was confirmed by a deed of 1184.[1]

Research Notes

It is just possible that Roger is the Roger de Cailly who in 1155 witnessed a deed of the Empress Matilda confirming a gift of Oelard de Cleis to the church of St John of Foucarmont, not far from Cailly in Normandy.[2] But dates may make this unlikely.

This profile follows the Nobiliare Universel in postulating that there were two people, father ( Roger de Cailly) and son (this profile), with the name Roger de Cailly. This view has not been universally shared. Foster's Yorkshire Pedigrees has only one Roger de Cailly who was son of the first Osbert lord of Cailly and father of the Osbert de Cailly, who was husband of Hildeburgh de Baudemont.[3]: the difficulty with that view is that, if there was only one Roger de Cailly, and he was adult, as is likely, by or soon after 1066, he would have had to live an extremely long life by the standards of the time to have fathered Osbert and made the 1120 gift.

There must be some uncertainty about this. For example the French pedigree names completely different children to Osbert and Hildeburgh, making it seem certain that there are records for at least two different Osberts being combined in different ways in the old pedigrees.

Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants states that Roger was son of Simon de Cailly.[4] Simon was regarded by 19th century genealogists as son of Humphrey de Cailly son of Osbern.[5] Keats-Rohan speculates tentatively that Simon was son of an Osbern de Cailly, who held lands in Suffolk. One thing that needs to be reconciled if this uncertainty is to be resolved is that the descendants of the Roger of this profile inherited Cailly near Rouen, and that another Roger de Cailly, son of Osbern, held Cailly in 1080 when he confirmed a gift made there by his father Osbern to the Abbey of Rouen. That Roger is shown here as father of the Roger of this profile. The circle can be squared if an Osbern de Cailly father of Simon was in fact son of that Roger de Cailly not of Humphrey - but this could be a tight squeeze of generations - or if Simon was himself son of Roger de Cailly not of the Osbern tentatively suggested by Keats-Rohan, making Roger de Cailly grandfather rather than father of the Roger of this profile.

This profile currently follows Foster's Yorkshire pedigrees[6] in giving Petronella de Vere as wife of Roger de Cailly. Keats-Rohan states that he was married twice, to Joan and then to Beatrice.[7] One of Keats-Rohan’s sources for these wives was Michael Cayley who in the early 1990s shared genealogical information with her prosopographical project following an appeal for help from members of the UK Society of Genealogists. As Michael Cayley made clear at the time, for Joan and Beatrice as wives of Roger he was drawing on an old unsourced family tree held by relatives, so the information on Joan and Beatrice might not be reliable.[8]

Sources

  1. Nobiliaire Universel de France vol. XVIII p.132, pub. 1821
  2. Rouen Bibliothèque Municipale MS Y 13 f.87 - Foucarmont Abbey Charters
  3. Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire, N and E Ridings, Joseph Foster, 1874 internet archive
  4. K S B Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, pub. Boydell Press 2002, p.366
  5. See eg Foster. Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire - North and East Riding. London 1874
  6. Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire, N and E Riding, Joseph Foster, 1874 - Cailly pedigree
  7. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, pub. Boydell Press 2002, p. 366
  8. Personal knowledge of Michael Cayley


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On 1 Oct 2018 at 21:54 GMT Michael Cayley wrote:

Just seen your question about the 1184 confirmation. I do not know where to find the original.

On 1 Oct 2018 at 21:49 GMT Michael Cayley wrote:

Powicke is very confident about Cailly being inherited in this line and gives sources, including a quotation from a charter signed by Matilda de Cailly, granddaughter of the Roger of this profile, and references to what happened to estates in the immediate aftermath of King John's loss of Normandy. I have not been able to check the original documents (I would need to look in French archives for some of them - I do not think they are on the web) but I would be amazed if Powicke was wrong. Nothing in Keats-Rohan contradicts this. My recollection is that Stapleton also gives good documentary sources, but it would take me a while to doublecheck. The Baudemonts also had a nearby Normandy inheritance and also got into complications following the loss of Normandy. Both families - like so many lords - had lands on both sides of the English Channel.

On 1 Oct 2018 at 21:37 GMT Andrew Lancaster wrote:

Interesting. The RRAN charters for Osbern show an Osbern who was very much in Normandy in the mid 12th century. Not very English looking. Not seeing any documents with relationships though yet, only witnessing. Any idea where to find the 1184 confirmation you reference from the French pedigree?

On 1 Oct 2018 at 21:33 GMT Michael Cayley wrote:

By the way, I have tidied up the language of the first para of the Research Notes. Thanks for pointing that out.

On 1 Oct 2018 at 21:26 GMT Andrew Lancaster wrote:

You seem to be taken it as sure that Osbern and Hideburgh's line inherited Cailly itself. Is that sure? Something missing is discussion of the charter evidence everyone is referring to, and looking at who was where and owned which things. How many Simons might there be? K-R uses RRAN a lot for this family: https://archive.org/details/regestaregumangl03grea/page/114 I agree Keats-Rohan thinks the father of Simon (the one she says is grandfather of the Osbert who married Hildeburgh) is uncertain.

On 1 Oct 2018 at 21:18 GMT Michael Cayley wrote:

I have further amended the research notes after a little more reflection. If Keats-Rohan is right on Simon being the father of the Roger of this profile, then the simplest answer is that Simon was son of the Roger who held Cailly and who in 1080 confirmed a gift by his father Osbern. That squares all circles. It accounts for the descendants inheriting Cailly. Keats-Rohan is tentative in suggesting Simon's father was another Osbern. I am not aware of any firm evidence to resolve this. I accept that some of the 19th century pedigrees - it is not just Foster - are not reliable. But any solution must be consistent with the way Cailly near Rouen passed down the family.

On 1 Oct 2018 at 21:05 GMT Andrew Lancaster wrote:

Sorry for the edit conflict. Your last paragraph seems a good idea but it is still a bit confusing. To me the French pedigree seems to mainly be a different family, and both claiming Hildebergh. In this type of case where there may be several people, I sometimes start by saying, at least to myself, but sometimes even at the opening, that for debate's sake this profile is about the person who was father of, or wife of, or son of etc. Giving an anchor point for discussion. Not sure if my advice helps!

On 1 Oct 2018 at 20:54 GMT Michael Cayley wrote:

Please see what I have added to the research notes.

On 1 Oct 2018 at 19:29 GMT Andrew Lancaster wrote:

Keats-Rohan think this Roger (father of Osbert) was married to Joan and Beatrice. The marriage we have seen legally problematic?

She also think this Roger was son of Simon and Alice. She makes citations to specific charters that can be checked. ADDED: K-R shows that Simon had a son named Osbert and a son named Roger and a son named William.

On 1 Oct 2018 at 19:24 GMT Andrew Lancaster wrote:

Something missing in the text? "only one ... who was father". There is always only one father so presumably there was another record that needs to be mentioned.

Roger is 31 degrees from Cari Starosta, 22 degrees from Marie-Antoinette d'Autriche and 15 degrees from Henry VIII of England on our single family tree. Login to find your connection.

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