Isabel (Creoun) de Berkeley (abt. 1225 - abt. 1276)

ISABELLA DE CHILHAM alias DOVER. Daughter of Richard, natural son of John of England, and Rose II of Dover, married Maurice II Berkeley.

Latin translated as comprehended by Carol McDonald.

[Calendar Close Rolls HIII] 10 August 1264 St. Paul’s London. Pro Isabella uxore Mauridi de Berkeleye.—Rex vicecomiti Kancie salutem. Cum nuper post mortem Stephani de Cressi, qui de nobis tenuit in capite, commiserimus Willelmo de Valencia fratri nostro quedam maneria, Stephani, et que occasione turbacionis in regno regis nuper habite a quibusdam jam occupata sunt ut aecepimus, ac de consilio baronum nostrorum qui sunt de consilio nostro maneria de Herietesham' et Trottesdive, que fuerunt ejusdem Stephani, in balliva tua Isabelle uxori Mauridi de Berkd', nepti nostre dilecte, cujus paupertati non mediocriter compatimur, ad sustentacionem suam et liberorum suorum assignaverimus, donee de consilio nostro predicto alitor inde fuerit provisum ; tibi precipimus firmiter injungentes quatinus, ------------. Teste rege apud Sanctum Paulum Lond' x. die Augusti.

Pro Isabella, wife of Maurice de Berkeley. King to the sheriff of Kent, greetings. Following the death of Stephen de Cressy, who held lands in chief, certain lands in Kent were granted to William de Valence during the minority of his heirs. With the recent tumult in the kingdom, [and resulting in the Lusignan brothers of the Henry III being forced into exile] the lands were returned to the king. With the consent of the Council of Barons, manors of Heritesham and Trottesdive, that belonged to the same Stephen in your bailiwick have been assigned to Isabel, wife of Maurice de Berkeley, our beloved niece, who is living in poverty for the maintenance of Maurice's and her children. ------------. [Maurice Berkeley was a royalist during the civil unrest of the 1260's and would have lost a large part of his income following the Battle of Lewes in 1264.]

I don't have access to Richardson's books, but he apparently says she is the daughter of Robert Fitzroy and Rohese (Rose) de Dover. (See comment below).

I do have access to Cokayne's "Complete Peerage," 2nd ed. In Volume II (1912), p. 127, it clearly states that Maurice de Berkeley, aka "Maurice the Resolute," married "before 12 July 1247, Isabel, (a) da. of Robert Fitzroy (illegit. s. of King John), by Rohese, da. and h. of Robert of Dover."

The note (a) states that, "The old idea (held by Vincent, Sandford, Etc.) that she was an illegit. da. of Richard, Earl of Cornwall (yr. br. of Henry III), or of his s. and h., Edmund, also Earl of Cornwall, is refuted in Smith's Berkeleys, vol. I,. p. 144.

The Dictionary of National Biography also states that Richard (Fitzroy) had a daughter named Isabel who married Maurice de Berkeley. The link is here: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Richard_(1209-1272)

Roberts & Otto (2018), in "The Royal Descents of 900 Immigrants" lists Isabel as the daughter of Richard Fitzroy (see lines on p. 676 and p. 691.

Smyth's full discussion of Isabel's parentage is given on pages 144-147 of Volume I of his Lives of the Berkeleys.

My guess is that this should clear up any confusion over Isabel's parentage and the biography above can be appropriately cleaned up.

Hi Isaac, as the profile is an open profile, and as you seem to be on top of things how about you doing the necessary to deal with your issues.

Robin

My current state of health means I will have to leave the research to others

This bio needs a clearer statement that we are in disagreement about who her parents were.

Currently, we link her FitzRoy (FitzJohn) parents, and thus give an immediate royal-bastard descent. However, in the very first sentence of the bio, we contradict ourselves; and say she's a de Creoun. Which is it? Can't be both.

It's not OK to conflate the two hypotheses.

It's not OK to leave de Creoun in her name; and ADD FitzRoy too.

It's not OK to say she was born at Chilham (ie she's a FitzRoy); but ALSO name her de Creoun.

These are mutally-exclusive, right?

If nothing else she needs a Disputed Origins tag (not just a birthdate-box) and we explain more fully the controversy/fork in the road. Perhaps she also needs her current, notional parents disconnected until the profile managers resolve their discrepancy?

The apparent source of the de Creoun origin is Burke. It's not clear what his primary sources were, or if he had any. (And he's often but not always reliable.) I don't see Burke currently listed in our sources for this profile. Therefore our sources do not support what WikiTree is publishing to the world as fact.

Burke:

https://books.google.com/books?id=eA84XBiBeroC&lpg=PA121&ots=kuPsmKbSo7&dq=Lord%20Maurice%20de%20Creoun%20Burke%7Cburke's%20Peerage&pg=PA121#v=onepage&q=Maurice%20de%20Creoun&f=false

"Maurice De BERKELEY This eminent person had military summonses to march against the Welsh in the 42nd, 43rd and 44th (years of the reign of) HENRY III and the next year he had command to attend the king in London well appointed with horse and arms to take part against the barons, then in open hostility ; but he appears to have adopted an opposite course and to have joined the insurrectionary lords, for which his lands were seized by the crown. This Maurice m. Isabel dau. of Maurice de Creoun, a great baron in Linonshire by Isabel his wife, sister to William de Valence, Earl of Pembroke (uterine sister and brother of HENRY III) and dying 4 April 1281 was s by his eldest son THOMAS de BERKELEY."

So according to Burke this woman is Isabel de Creoun, daughter of Isabel de Valence; and thus this woman is niece of Henry III.

But according to the sources we actually cite on this profile, she's a FitzRoy (FitzJohn).

Respectfully, which is it?

If we don't know, she's LNAB Unknown... because, we don't know.

Source: Richardson, Douglas. Royal Ancestry: A Study In Colonial And Medieval Families, in 5 vols. (Salt Lake City, Utah, 2013). Vol., I, page 326.

Maurice De Berkeley, Knt., born in 1218. He married about 12 July 1247 Isabel De Dover (otherwise De Chilham), daughter of Richard Fitz Roy (otherwise de Warenne, de Chilham), Knt., by Rose, daughter of Fulbert de Dover. They had four sons, Maurice, Thomas, Knt. Robert, and Simon, and one daughter, Maud.

Thank you!

Close-bracket needs to be after "King John" not after "Dover" - Rohese was Richard Fitzroy's wife, not his mother.