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Marared ferch Madog (abt. 1129 - abt. 1201)

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Marared (Margaret) ferch Madog aka verch Madoc, of Powys, of Gwynedd
Born about in Powys, Walesmap
Ancestors ancestors
Wife of — married in Aberffraw Castle, Ynys Mon, Gwynedd, Walesmap
Descendants descendants
Died about in Kingdom of Gwyneddmap
Profile last modified | Created 21 Mar 2011 | Last significant change: 7 Nov 2018
19:56: Jack Day edited the Biography for Margaret ferch Madog. [Thank Jack for this]
This page has been accessed 4,381 times.

Categories: Cymru 742-1535 Project | Cymru 742-1535.

European Aristocracy
Margaret ferch Madog was a member of royalty, nobility or aristocracy in Wales in the Middle Ages.
Join: Cymru Welsh Royals and Aristocrats 742-1535 Project
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Contents

Biography

Name and Birth

  • Marared[1] ferch Madog was born about 1130.
  • She was called Margred, Marared, Marget, Marred, Marret, and Marvred in various records.

Parents

Marared was the daughter of Madog ap Maredudd, the Brenin of Powys. Cawley notes that her parentage and marriage are recorded in a manuscript now at Jesus College "Marareda merch Madawc m Maredud". [1]

Her father, Madog ap Maredudd, who died in 1161 and was buried in Meivod, was the son of Maredudd ap Bleddyn and his first wife, Hunydd, daughter of Eunydd (Efnydd) ap Gwernwy. Her father suceeded his father in 1132 as Prince of Powys. [1]

Her mother was Susann of Gwynedd, daughter of Gruffydd ap Cynan, King of Gwynedd, and his wife Angharad of Deheubarth. [1]

Her grandfather, Maredudd, who died in 1132, was son of Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, King of Gwynedd and Powys, and his third wife Haer of Gest. Maredudd succeeded his father in 1075 as Prince of Powys. [1]

Siblings

Marared's grew up in a family comprised of:

  1. Llywelyn (-killed 1161). The Annales Cambriæ record that "Lewelinus filius eius [Madoc filius Maredut Powysorum princeps]" was killed in 1161[754]. The Chronicle of the Princes of Wales records that "Madog son of Maredudd Lord of Powys" died in 1159 and "shortly afterwards that his son Llywelyn was killed"[755].
  2. Gruffydd "Maelor" I (-1191, bur Meivod). Prince of Northern Powys (Fadog).
  3. Marared
  4. Gwenllian who married Rhys ap Gruffyd Prince of Deheubarth, son of GRUFFYD ap Rhys King of D|eheubarth & his wife Gwenllian of Gwynedd ([1132]-1197).
  5. Owain Brogyntyn, an illegitimate son by an unknown mistress. Cawley reports two additional illegitimate sons, not named.

Marriage to Iorwerth ab Owain

About 1163,, Margred married Iorwerth "Drwyndwn (flat nose)" ab Owain "Gwynedd" who died iin 1174. [1] They had two children, Llywelyn and Adda.

Death

The date of Margred's death is not known, although some merged profiles, citing online trees, showed that she died 1196/1198.

Issue

Margred and Iowrwerth had two children:

  1. Llywelyn "Mawr" ap Iorwerth "Drwyndwn", Prince of Aberffraw, Lord of Snowdon, "Llywelyn the Great", b. ca. 1173
  2. Adda ap Iorwerth "Drwyndwn", b. ca. 1170

Research Notes

Did Marared have a second marriage to Hugh Corbet?

Historians at one point speculated that the mother of Llewelyn the Great was a Corbet.
Stewart Baldwin, in his table of Llewelyn's ancestry, discusses this speculation:
"Llywelyn refers to a certain Walter Corbet as frater Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei [leading to the suggestion] that Llywelyn's mother was a Corbet. . . . However, as the source of JC.29 [for Margred ferch Madog] appears to have been written during Llywelyn's lifetime, and there are others ways in which an uncle-nephew relationship between William Corbet (an obscure individual) and Llywelyn could be explained, there seems to be no good reason to reject the statement of JC.29 regarding the identity of Llywelyn's mother."[2].
  • JC: Jesus College (Oxford) MS. 20, in EWGT, pp. 41-50. The manuscript itself is from the fourteenth century, but since the latest individuals mentioned in the manuscript are Llywelyn ap Iorwerth and some of his contemporaries, its source appears to date from the early thirteenth century (or perhaps a bit earlier - see the sources cited in EWGT, p. 41). [3]
One of those other ways is that Margred married a Corbet who raised Llewelyn, as suggested by Sharon Kaye Penman. In her novel, Here Be Dragons, she has Llewelyn raised by a Corbet stepfather, with the following explanation in her author's note:
"Historians have long been cognizant of his kinship to the Corbet family; he often stayed his hand, spared Corbet lands, and a letter of his addresses William Corbet as 'uncle'. In researching the Corbet family, I was able to eliminate Robert Corbet without difficulty. His brother William was the 'uncle' of Llewelyn's letter. Walter Corbet was a monk. By the process of elimination, Hugh Corbet had to be Marared's second husband, Llewelyn's stepfather."[4][5]
Sir Arthur E. Turner-Thomas, whose Celtic Royal Genealogy is posted online in Rootsweb, includes the following on the entry for Llywelyn Fawr:
"He [Iorwerth ab Owain] married Marared ferch Madog ap Maredudd of Powys. and it is possible their son Llywelyn was brought up largely outside Gwyncdd (which in the 1180s may not have been a safe environment for a child with a claim to a share of land and power). Charter evidence suggests that Marared remarried into a Shropshire Marcher family, the Corbels [sic] of Caux. The Corbet lands abutted on Powys, and a Corbet might have seemed a suitable husband for a widowed Powysian princess. If Marared did marry into the Corbets, then Llywelyn may have received part of his upbringing and education in the March. Throughout his life. Llywelyn would show himself adept both at dealing with the Marcher lords, and with negotiating the complex world of English court politics. This could well be a by-product of an education in the mixed Anglo-Welsh world of the March.'"[6]

A Corbet Daughter who married Iorwerth ab Owain?

A duplicate profile (for Corbet-168), that duplicated much of the information already in this profile (ferch Madog-1), was merged 1 January 2018. It had marriage as married 1168 in Pontesbury, Shropshire, England and the following:

Many genealogies show a daughter of Simon Corbet who married Iorwerth ab Owain, father of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth. For instance, Augusta Corbet wrote in 1915: "One of (Thomas Corbet's) sisters became the wife of Jowerth, the father of the Great llewellyn ap Jowerth." [7]

This supposition appears to be based on a reference by Llywelyn to a certain Walter Corbet as frater Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei. If William Corbet was Iorwerth's uncle, then surely Iorwerth's mother was William's sister, an unnamed Corbet, as reflected in Augusta Corbet's conclusion. But there are other ways an uncle-nephew relationship can be established.

It is now well established that Llywelyn ap Iorwerth"s mother was Marared ferch Madog. Cawley reports that Marared ferch Madog was born about 1130 and was called Margred, Marared, Marget, Marred, Marret, and Marvred in various records. [8]

Yet there were clearly other signs of some Corbet connection. "Historians have long been cognizant of (Llywelyn's) kinship to the Corbet family; he often stayed his hand, spared Corbet lands, and a letter of his addresses William Corbet as 'uncle'. [9]

Penman concludes that in order for Llywelyn's reference to William as an uncle to be correct, Marared must have made a second marriage after Iorwerth's death in 1174. [10]

Who would Marared's second husband be? "In researching the Corbet family, I was able to eliminate Robert Corbet without difficulty. His brother William was the 'uncle' of Llewelyn's letter. Walter Corbet was a monk. By the process of elimination, Hugh Corbet had to be Marared's second husband, Llewelyn's stepfather."[9] [11]

Sources

  1. 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 Charles Cawley, Foundation for Medieval Genealogy. Medieval Lands Database.Marared m Iorwerth Drwyndwyn, accessed Dec. 20, 2016
  2. Stewart Baldwin's table of Llywelyn's ancestry
  3. EWGT: Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts, edited by P. C. Bartrum (University of Wales Press, Cardiff, 1966).
  4. Gen-Medieval 1999 Rootsweb post, AJones
    Note - the Rootsweb post correctly quotes the author's note that calls her (incorrectly) "Marared ferch Meredydd", but when introduced in the novel (page 7), she is "Marared, daughter of Prince Madog ap Meredydd."
  5. see also Stewart Baldwin's Gen-Medieval 1999 Rootsweb post in the same thread.
  6. source one of the following (the first followed the entry; the second preceded it), probably the first one:
    • Kari Maund, The Welsh Kings, The Medieval Rulers of Cymru, Tempus, Stroud, 2002
    • Davies J, 1990, A History of Cymru, Penguin, London, ISBN 0-14-014581-8
  7. Augusta Elizabeth Brickdale Corbet. The family of Corbet, its Life and Times. London: The St. Catherine Press, 1915. Volume II, page 218 Jowerth Accessed October 23, 2017. jhd
  8. Charles Cawley. Foundation for Medieval Genealogy. Marared m Iorwerth Drwyndwyn Marared, Accessed Dec. 20, 2016).
  9. 9.0 9.1 Rootsweb: Gen-Medieval Archives Gen-Medieval 1999 Rootsweb post, A Jones
    Note - the Rootsweb post correctly quotes the author's note that calls her (incorrectly) "Marared ferch Meredydd", but when introduced in the novel (page 7), she is "Marared, daughter of Prince Madog ap Meredydd."
  10. Sharon Penman, Author's Note, Here Be Dragons. As a writer of historical fiction, does substantive research to make sure that the settings for her stories are as factually accurate as possible. Cited by A. Jones. Gen-Medieval List {http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1999-10/0939744900 Llywelyn'd daughter Margaret and the de Braose Family] 12 October 1699. Accessed October 13, 2017. jhd
  11. see also Stewart Baldwin's Gen-Medieval 1999 Rootsweb post in the same thread.
See also:
The FMG database MEDIEVAL LANDS: A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families by Charles Cawley,© Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, 2000-2013.
For the Cymru project, see the Medieval Lands section on Wales.

FamilySearch Welsh Medieval Database shows Bartrum not naming a mother for Marared. [12] Lloyd gives Susanna as her mother[13] as does Dwinn.[14]



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Collaboration

On 25 Oct 2018 at 15:51 GMT Jack Day wrote:

That is correct. Marared exists, with parents, children and one husband. But did she have a second husband who was a Corbet? That's the question.

On 25 Oct 2018 at 15:15 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

The G2G question "Nonexistent person or Merge?" still seems to be unresolved.

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/490666/nonexistent-person-or-merge

On 25 Oct 2018 at 10:43 GMT Jack Day wrote:

It takes longer to write doubt than certrainty. I added some specific citations from FMG that confirm Marared's mother. The current biography section is now fairly cohesive and certain.

The main body of material in research notes reflects speculation that Marared had a second husband, a Corbet, after the death of the first. Further research into dates of events in Marared's life could address the question of whether she had room in her life for the suggested Corbet events.

Meanwhile, Marared has many more siblings in WikiTree than listed in FMG.

On 25 Oct 2018 at 00:46 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

checking on examples profiles (see this page).

I think that too much doubt and discussion has been added to this profile to stay on that page.

What do y'all think?

On 21 Dec 2016 at 04:31 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

ap Iorwerth / ab Owain (see this G2G discussion)

On 21 Mar 2015 at 22:53 GMT Vic Watt wrote:

I have included Margred as one of the first profiles in the new Cymru project. Please take at look and tell me what you think. Additions and correction and suggestions for other resources would be appreciated. Vic

On 19 May 2014 at 20:37 GMT Michelle (Bairfield) Brooks wrote:

Madoc-18 and Ferch Madog-1 appear to represent the same person because: would be best to remove protected status to merge into the profile without the preposition.



Margaret is 21 degrees from Claude Monet, 25 degrees from Gigi Tanksley and 19 degrees from Victoria of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland on our single family tree. Login to find your connection.

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