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Margred (ferch Morgan) St John (abt. 1462 - abt. 1524)

Margred (Sybil) St John formerly ferch Morgan
Born about in Langstone, Monmouthshire, Walesmap
Ancestors ancestors
Wife of — married 1483 in Langstone, Walesmap
Descendants descendants
Died about in Coity, Bridgend, Glamorganshire, Walesmap
Profile last modified | Created 26 Dec 2015
This page has been accessed 2,619 times.
The Birth Date is a rough estimate. See the text for details.
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Contents

Biography

Sybil (ferch Morgan) St John was a member of aristocracy in the British Isles.

Margred,[1] Sibyl (or Margaret) ferch Morgan ap Jenkin ap Philip.[2][3]

She was the daughter of Morgan ap Jenkin ap Philip, Esq, of Langstone, Monmouthshire, by his 2nd wife Margred, daughter of Dafydd Matthew, Knt.[2] Morgan ap Jenkin was Lord of Langstone, a manor to the east of Newport in Monmouthshire.

She married John Saint John, K.B., of Bletsoe, Keysoe, Riseley, and Sharnbrook, Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire, son and heir by his father's 1st marriage. They had three sons and five daughters.[2]

Children:

Sons
  1. John St John, Knt.... or John St John of Bletsoe, Bedfordshire, married Margaret Waldegrave.[2]
  2. Oliver St John
  3. Alexander St John, Esq....of Thurleigh, Bedfordshire, 3rd son. He was a legatee in the 1509 will of William Morgan, Doctor of Law. He was a legaee and named one of the executors in the 1525 will of his father. He married by license dated 18 Nov 1530 Jane (or Joan) Dalison, widow of Thomas Levanthrpe, Esq (died 1527)...[2]
Daughters
  1. Elizabeth St John, wife of Thomas Rotheram, Knight.
  2. Alice St John, wife of Henry Parker, Knight, 10th Lord Morley.
  3. Margaret St John, married Thomas Gamage, Knt., of Coity, Glamorgan.
  4. unnamed daughter[4]
  5. unnamed daughter[4]

Sir John Saint John left a will dated 22 March 1524/5, proved 23 May 1525, requesting burial in the chapel of St. Edmund on the north side of the church of Bletsoe, Bedfordshire.[2]

Research Notes

Date Estimation

Margred's husband was living in 1501 and made his will in 1525. Their son Alexander was an executor, therefore over 21, in his father's 1525 will. Alexander in 1530 married Jane, a widow.
Estimate Jane's age at 25 at her second marriage in 1530, and Alexander aged 30, therefore born 1500. Alexander was the third son, perhaps the 5th child. Estimate the births of children 1-4 at two year intervals as 1492, 1494, 1496, 1498, and therefore place the marriage year of Margret and John at 1491. If she was 18 at marriage, her birth year would have been 1473. Her 8 children would have been born over a 16 year span from 1492 to 1508, and her death not earlier than 1508.
Her marriage is currently (October 2, 2016) shown, without source, as 1483.[5] If this is true, it would place her children's birth years back 10 years -- 1502-1518, and make Alexander a 20 year old rather than a 30 year old when he married a young widow. The 1483 marriage year is therefore questionable, but may be true depending on source and other facts.
If Margred died early while her children were small, it is likely her husband would have remarried, but there is no record of him doing so; therefore we can presume she lived during her children's childhood. Richardson does not mention her being named in her husband's 1525 will, so she may have predeceased him. Therefore place her death at 1524.
As of October 2, 2016, WikiTree shows children born beginning in 1480 and an unsourced birth year of 1462.

Analysis by Jack Day, October 2, 2016.

Additional Notes about Children

Childrens' birth year shown by WikiTree on October 2, 2016 are possibly unsourced and subject to further review (see the Changes for this page, 22 March 2020, or their profiles for the dates given).
Other Children attached to this couple by WikiTree
  1. Catherine St John married Rhys, currently shown born 1496.
  2. Sybil St John, currently shown born 1490

Sources

  1. Godwin 8, Godwin 5, and Cydifor Fawr 16 (charts posted by The Bartrum Project)
  2. 2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5 Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, Salt Lake City, Utah: IV, 534
  3. wikidata and her entry in thepeerage.com (source for wikidata as of 15 Jan. 2020) do not call her Margred, just Sybil. Note that thepeerage.com is not considered a reliable source (see, for example, Magna Carta Project's Reliable Sources page).
  4. 4.0 4.1 Richardson names only three of their five daughters [need to verify-ls, 22 March 2020]
  5. The Tudor Place entry for Sybil verch Morgan gives 1483 as their marriage date, but that site is considered to be an unreliable source (see the Magna Carta Project's Reliable Sources page). This database is also the apparent source for Catherine and Sybil as daughters & possibly the source of the dates that had been given for all of John and Margred/Sybil's children.
  • Richardson's Magna Carta Ancestry - p 479.

Acknowledgements

Click the Changes tab to see edits to this profile; click here to see edits to the previous profile, Morgan-396. From that list, click WikiTree IDs other than Morgan-396 to see changes to those profiles prior to being merged. Thank you to everyone who contributed to this profile.


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Comments: 10

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Hi! Duplicate profiles of John St John (wife of Margred, aka Sybil) were just merged & the duplicate profiles for his wife need to merge. For a discussion of Margred/Sybil, please see this section of John's profile.

Her LNAB should be ferch Morgan, per Cymru Project guidelines. If no objections, I'll remove PPP for this profile so that it can be merged with ferch_Morgan-5.

Thanks! Liz

posted on Morgan-11559 (merged) by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Excellent, Liz. You are saving me a job :-) I will leave you to take this forward unless you tell me otherwise.
posted on Morgan-11559 (merged) by Michael Cayley
edited by Michael Cayley
Merge completed... Because Morgan-11559 was merged into ferch_Morgan-5 (PPP), the profile managers, including the project, were not retained as managers. Let me know if I should switch the British Royals and Aristocrats Project box to a sticker or re-instate the project as a manager.

Cheers, Liz

posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Source: Douglas Richardson. Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 5 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham (Salt Lake City: the author, 2013), volume IV, page 534 SAINT JOHN 18.

Alexander Saint John, 3rd son. He was a legatee in the 1509 will of William Morgan, Doctor of Law. He was a legatee and named one of the executors in the 1525 will of his father.

Margred could not have had a marriage and children and then died at the age of 10, so I added a date estimation which improves things a little. But dates for her parents and children also need to be reviewed; there may remain considerable glitches.
posted by Jack Day
Marriage Date is after death date??
posted by Lisa (Sandman) Mcbride
birth dates in profiles attached as children would push death date from 1472 to about/after 1496.
posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
It would appear that she grew up in a Welsh home in Wales with a Welsh father, named Morgan ap Jenkin, so her correct LNAB should be "ferch Morgan" (daughter of Morgan). Since the profile is project protected, I think it would require a Leader to make that change.

Also, even though Richardson (Royal Ancestry, IV, 534) refers to her as "Sibyl (or Margaret) ferch Morgan ap Jenkin ap Philip", my hunch is that her first name at birth was the Welsh Margred, which is used by the prominent historian Bartrum, and that Sibyl, which is an English name of Norman extraction, was acquired later on as the Welsh nobility tried to integrate into English society.

posted by Jack Day
UNKNOWN-68983 and Morgan-396 appear to represent the same person because: I just proposed a merge of the profiles for her husband. These profiles should also be merged.
posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett

F  >  ferch Morgan  |  S  >  St John  >  Margred (ferch Morgan) St John

Categories: Cymru 742-1535 Project | Estimated Birth Date