A word of caution.
Great care must be taken in the study of the genealogy of the Fisher family. The reason for the need of caution is succinctly stated by Dallett[1] in his study of the Wynne and Maude pedigrees. He observes:
The alleged "third" Mrs. Wynne has been the subject of printed study since at least 1896, not because of her husband Thomas Wynne, but because of her former husband, Joshua Maude (1627 - 1672) of Cliffs, Wakefield, Yorkshire, was the grandfather of Joshua Fisher (1707 - 1783), the colonial Philadelphia shipowner. His many descendants have long been aware of their armigerous ancestor Joshua Maude. The interest of the antiquarian-minded in their family origins has resulted in a series of genealogical studies which, in so far of the early generations are concerned, unfortunately contain many misstatements of facts.
The printed study that is referred to above is no doubt A. W. Smith's "Genealogy of the Fishers," which was published by in 1896.[2] This volume has been the principle genealogical source for the Fisher family, and, as a consequence of its "many misstatements of facts," it is essential to verify, wherever possible, Fisher family lore with primary sources.
Actually, the difficulty is even more severe than indicated above. This is due to the fact that the family of Fishers of interest in this profile are just one of a multitude of Fisher families who were early immigrants to Pennsylvania and near by colonies. This is discussed by J. L. Fisher in his manuscript entitled "The First Fishers."[3]
As an example of the confusion that has occurred and needs to be avoided, consider the FInd a Grave memorial for John Fisher, Find A Grave: Memorial #146918732. This memorial appears to be an amalgam of people. For example, it refers to a 1672 marriage of John Fisher and Sarah Hutchinson in Yorkshire. This could not have happened to our John Fisher as he and his wife Margret lived with their children in Clitheroe, Lancashire in that period of time. Moreover, his wife accompanied him when he immigrated to America in 1682. She survived him when he died in 1685 and was subsequently appointed executrix of his will.
Please do not add unverified "facts" to this profile. Primary sources are essential.
John Fisher is the patriarch of one of several lines of Fishers who immigrated to the vicinity of Philadelphia in the late 17th century. Biographical sketches of the patriarchs of these families can be found in J. L. Fisher's The First Fishers of Pennsylvania and Adjacent Colonies.[3] Of interest to us is the section entitled John and Margaret Fisher of Philadelphia and Delaware on pages 22-27. In the following these pages will be referred to as Fisher's "Notes." See Research Note 1.
John's life is conveniently divided into before and after his immigration to the new world in 1682. Fisher family lore informs that John emigrated from Clitheroe, Lancashire, England.[4] This has been confirmed by the discovery of his sons' baptismal records at St Mary Magdalene Church in Clitheroe, Lancashire, England.[5]
John's life before and after his immigration presents very different problems. The difficulties prior to his immigration are due to the dearth of primary sources, whereas, after his immigration the difficulty is a plethora of primary sources not all of which are are related to our John Fisher.
John's eldest son, Michael, was born in April of 1664 (he was baptized on the 1st of May 1664[5]), implying that he was conceived in July of 1663. Thus, John and Margret's marriage must have occurred in or before July of 1663. To estimate John and Margret's birth dates it is assumed that John was 22 year of age and Margret was 20 years at the time of their marriage in 1663. This yields birth dates of 1641 and 1643 for John and Margret, respectively.
Thus, it is estimated that John was born in 1641, that he married at the age of 22 years in 1663, that he immigrated to the new world nineteen years later at the age of 41 in 1682, and that he died three years after that in 1685/86 at the age of 44 years.
John Fisher's profession is listed as a glazier in a deed[6] dated 26th day of the 3rd month 1688, in which the executors of John Fisher's estate, Margret Fisher, his widow, and their son Thomas Fisher, convey to Charles Pickering, piece of land containing three hundred acres situate in the county and also three lots situate in the city lists. While this was not a new technology in the 17th century, it was a highly skilled trade.[7] The indications are that he made an excellent living as after 19 years of marriage he was able to purchase passage from England to Pennsylvania for himself, his wife, seven children, and two servants. John also purchased 500 acres land in the city of Philadelphia before leaving England. In addition to this, it must be assumed that he not only brought his own tools of trade, but must also have brought a supply of glass, as the first glass furnace in America was not established until early in the 18th century. See Research Note 2.
It is estimated that John married about 1663. His wife's given name, Margret, has been handed down in the family lore and is readily verified by numerous sources. Principle among these is his will.[8] Margret's surname has not been handed down within the family. The surname name Hindle or Hindley has been proposed. The evidence at best is contradictory. See Research Note 3.
John and Margret Fisher had eight children; four sons (Michael, Thomas, John, and James) and four daughters (Annie, Rachel, Sarah, and Alice). The baptismal dates[5] for their sons, as well as, the burial date[9] for their eldest son, Michael, are known from church records of St. Mary Magdalene Church in Clitheroe, Lancashire, England. John's will,[8] in addition to naming his wife, names seven children. His daughter, Annie, is the only one of his children who, having married, has left home. For this reason it is assume that she is the eldest of his daughters. He lists the six of his children who remained at home at the time of his death. They appear to be listed in birth order (Thomas, John, James, Rachel, Sarah, and Alice). Thomas is identified as the eldest of his surviving sons, John and James appear in the correct order according to their baptismal records. And Alice brings up the tail. Observe that there are 31 months between the baptism dates for Michael and Thomas, 30 months between Thomas' and John's baptismal dates, and 15 months between John and Thomas baptismal dates. A child born before Michael would have been 19 years old at the time of arrival in America, a child born between Michael and Thomas would have been 17 years old, and a child born between Thomas and John would be 15 years old upon arrival in Philadelphia. It will be assumed that Annie was born between Thomas and John making her 15 going on 16 years old on arrival in the new world. The Fisher family lore[2] reports that John and family arrived in the new world in the late fall of 1682 and that due to a "housing shortage" they were forced to live in a timbered cave on the banks of the Delaware River. They were cold and miserable. One can imagine a 15 going on 16 years old Annie, who never wanted to leave her home and friends in Clitheroe in the first place, finding these circumstances beyond endurance, and as a consequence, running away to marry an older man more comfortably settled. In this scenario the three youngest daughter are born after James. Separating the births by two years, results in the following birth dates: 1672 for Rachel, 1674 for Sarah and 1676 for Alice.
Research Note 1: Family genealogies. The Fisher genealogy has been the subject of many studies. The following is a (incomplete) list of such studies, with online copies noted were they are known to exist.
"John Fisher came from England to Pennsylvania with William Penn on the first voyage of the ship Welcome in 1682. He had married Margaret -------- and had six children, Sarah, Alice, Anne, James, John and Thomas. The first four died without issue. Thomas married Margery Maud, in 1692, and had seven children."While these four sentences appear to bring us much need information, they also bring controversy. The Welcome Society of Pennsylvania does not recognize John Fisher and family as passengers aboard the Welcome, rather they propose that the Fisher family were passengers aboard the Lamb. And second, James Fisher did not die without issue. A deed of conveyance, from Thomas Fisher and John Fisher, sons of John Fisher late of Sussex County, Pennsylvania Territory to Sarah Fisher, daughter of James Fisher, deceased, conveys 500 acres that the brothers John, Thomas and James inherited from their father John Fisher.[10] The information that we gain, that is, John's wife's given name and the names of his children, must be received with caution as Hutchinson has not proven to be totally reliable. This is emphasized by the fact that John Fisher had seven children not the six reported by Hutchinson.
Research Note 2: Was John Fisher called to the bar? J. L. Fisher's "Notes" informs that John Fisher was called to the bar. Fisher references an anonymous manuscript in the Genealogical Society of Pennsylvania collections (LDS Film 0565685)[11] and comments John Fisher [was] admitted to Queen’s College and cites Foster’s Gray's Inn Register. This is actually quite confusing as Foster's Gray's Inn Register[12] has nothing to do with admission to Queen's College. A bit of background will be useful. In 17th century England, in order to practice law, one had to belong to one of four professional organizations, which were called the Inns of Court. Gray's Inn[13] was one of these. Foster's Gray's Inn Register is Joseph Foster's transcription the Register of Admission to Gray's Inn.
The index of Foster's Gray Inn Register lists seven John Fishers.
Date | Name | Page | John Fisher's Age at Registration |
20 Nov 1652 | John | 263 | 11 years |
1 May 1670 | John | 309 | 29 years |
10 Feb 1688 | John | 337 | deceased |
1771 | John | 386 | deceased |
1812 | John | 415 | deceased |
1810 | John M. | 413 | deceased |
1797 | John W. | 402 | deceased |
Our principle can only be the second of these. The first is to young and the last five register after John's death. The comments for this entry are son of Nicholas F., of Stonbank Green, Westmoreland, Esq. Our John Fisher is believed to be from Clitheroe, Lancashire, the John Fisher of this entry is from Stonbank Green, in Westmoreland. Lancashire and Westmoreland are neighboring Counties in the north of England. As a consequence of this difference in locations, it is questionable as to whether or not that this John Fisher is in fact our John Fisher.
If the conjecture that this John Fisher is in fact our John Fisher is correct, then Foster's Gray's Inn Register enable us to extend John Fisher's family tree. Extracting from the Register all Fishers from County of Westmoreland yields three names listed in the following table.
Date | Name | Page | Comments |
23 Oct 1633 | Nicholas | 202 | son and heir of William F., of Kendall, Westmoreland, Esq. |
10 Jun 1664 | Edward | 297 | son and heir of Nicholas F., of Stainebank Green, Westmoreland, Esq. |
1 May 1670 | John | 309 | son of Nicholas F., of Stonbank Green, Westmoreland, Esq., deceased. |
Thus we see that if John is our principal, then Edward is his brother, Nicholas his father and William his grandfather. However, the evidence that this conjecture is true is inconclusive at best.
Research Note 2: John Fisher's Last Will and Testament. John Fisher's will was signed and witnessed on the 6th of February 1685/86, it was proven the 30th of April 1686 and is recorded in the Probate records of Sussex County, Delaware.[8] Transcript of this will can be found in J.L. Fisher's The First Fishers of Pennsylvania and Adjacent Colonies.[3] on pages 25 and 26. Given directly below is a copy of this transcript that has been edited for readability
Research Note 3: John's wife's surname. John Fisher's wife's given name is found in numerous sources. The most convincing being John Fisher's Last Will and Testament. Here John Fisher twice refers to his wife as "my well beloved wife Margret Fisher." Margret's maiden name is more difficult. It has not been passed down in the Fisher family records. The surname Hindle or Hindley has been proposed. This proposal is based upon an item in John and Margret's eldest son's will. The sixth item in Thomas Fisher's will is reproduce below:
Item — I give and bequeath unto my sons and daughters, that house, land and appurtenances which was left to me by my uncle, John Hindle, the son of Bryan Hindle of Clitheroe, to be equally divided between them their heirs and assigns, excepting my loving wife Margret Fisher her thirds therein, whom I give full power, as if I were personally present to employ attorney or attorneys one or more under her as is lawful for the division of the said house land and appurtenances for the use of aforesaid.
Thomas' paternal uncles, that is, his father's brothers are Fishers. On the other hand, his maternal uncles, i.e., his mother's brothers, would carry his mother's maiden name. From this it is often concluded that Margret's maiden name was Hindle. However, this is not necessarily correct. For example, John Hindle could be one of Thomas' aunt's husbands. While this item in Thomas' will is suggestive, it does not constitute proof. Addition evidence is needed.
This item in Thomas' will also informs that John Hindle's father's name is Bryan Hindle and that they are from Cletheroh, County of Lancashire, England. The accepting the suggestion that Margret's maiden name is Hindle implies that she is Bryan Hindle's daughter. This suggests a search of English birth records for a father/daughter pair by the names of Bryan/Margret Hindle. Searching on FamilySearch's collection "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975." [14] yields the following:
Name | Margaret Hindle |
Sex | Female |
Christening Date | 17 Jul 1707 |
Christening Place | Kirkby Overblow, Yorkshire, England |
Christening Place (Original) | Kirkby Overblow, York, England |
Father's Name | Bryan Hindle |
Father's Sex | Male |
Mother's Name | Jane |
Mother's Sex | Female |
Clearly, the christening date of 17 Jul 1707 eliminates this father/daughter pair our Bryan/Margret father/daughter pair. No other similar pair was discovered.
J. L. Fisher's "Notes" provide another clue. Fisher references an anonymous manuscript in the Genealogical Society of Pennsylvania collections (LDS Film 0565685)[11]. Fisher provides a summary which is quoted below.John Fisher and wife came to Pennsylvania in 1682 from Clitheroe, a parish in North Lancashire, 15 miles from Garstang, 20 miles from Lancaster, and about 25 miles from Kendal, Westmoreland. Alexander Fisher represented Clitheroe in parliament in 1585. The seat of the Hindley family was at Hindley, now a parish, but formerly a chapelry of Garstang. Earliest was Henry Fisher of Kendal, reign of Henry VIII. Son Nicholas of Kendal bought manor of Kentmere, 1626. Sons Henry, Edward, Nicholas. John Fisher, second son of Nicholas and Elizabeth (Brockholes) Fisher, b. 1646, aged 18 years 1664. M. ca 1667 Margaret Hindley, dau of Bryan , granddau of John Hindley of Clitheroe. John Fisher and John Hindley were admitted to Queen’s College on the same day, Foster’s Grays Inn Register.
It is the last sentence which captures our attention. Its importance is that it establishes a connection between the two families, i. e., the Fishers and the Hindles. It is a bit confusing, as admission to Gray's Inn has nothing to do with admission to Queen's College. To provide a bit of context, in 17th century England, in order to practice law it was required that the individual belong to one of four professional associations for lawyers and judges known as the Inns of the Court. Gray's Inn is one of the four. Gray's Inn Register is a list of members of Gray's Inn.
We are also informed "that he (John Fisher) and John Hindley were admitted on the same day." The index of Foster's Gray Inn Register provides a list of four Hindleys.
Date | Name | Page | Comments |
10 May 1626 | Robert | 143 | gent, son and heir of Roger H. of Hindley, co. Lanc., gent. |
2 Mar 1631 | Hugh | 196 | son of Roger H. of Hindley, co. Lancaster, Gent. |
10 Mar 1669 | Hugh | 309 | son and heir of Hugh H., late of Hindley, co. Lancaster, Esq., deceased. |
2 Dec 1691 | John | 343 | of Hindley, co. Lancaster, son and heir of ----- H., Esq. |
Again, only one entry, the third, lies in the expected range of dates. This would suggest that Hugh Hindley and John Fisher were enrolled at the same time. The dates of registration provided by Foster, 10 Mar 1669 (OS) and 1 May 1670 (OS) respectively, are about seven weeks apart. This does not conform with J. L. Fisher's notes.
The first Hindley entry is worth examining a bit closer. It is for a Roger Hindley. The entry immediately following his is for John Feilden, of Blackburn, co. Lancaster, gent. They registered on the same date but on a date that precedes are John Fisher's birth. The reason that this is of interest is that there is a marriage recorded between a Margaret Hindle and a John Feilden; a search on Margaret Hindle in the FamilySearch collection "England Marriages, 1538–1973 " [15]
Name | John Feilden |
Sex | male |
Spouse's Name | Margret Hindle |
Spouse's Sex | female |
Spouse's Name | Margret Hindle |
Marriage Date | 9 Jun 1697 |
Marriage Place | Church, Lancashire, England |
Marriage Place (original) | Wesleyan Church, Lancashire, England |
Once again from the date of the marriage it is clear that this is not our Margret Hindle.
The evidence that Margret's surname was Hindle is simply not convincing. Our conclusions is that Margret's surname still remains unknown.
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You may or may not have had any questions of his changes. He asked that those following not to delete his work as he continues his rewrite. If you have any concerns on any of his changes he would welcome your comments by message, and your patience.
I think many of the older comments should be marked archive just to make this comments section read better--but I have resolved to be a follower rather than a manager.
Too many cooks in the pot here, I have removed myself as manager as I do not have the resources or time to sort it out. If you do, request to be put on the trusted list. (interested so kkept on trusted list for now, but will make no further edits. This is an important person in history, and should probably be part of a protected project. Does this have a blending of two Fishers? Certainly a possibility for sure.
I do thank you for your interest and concerns, they are merited.
You may have something of value to say and/or contribute, especially since you may be related. All critique is welcome hear on WikiTree. The goal is not perfection, but writing an accurate and meaningful story.
My John Fisher information comes from a book called the Chronicles of Middletown, Pa that I have purchased on a CD. I do have to read your link to the Genealogy of Fisher families. Here is a link to the file I am using to help in any way possible. https://books.google.com/books?id=Z1sUAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false After reading your links attached There no way I could properly sort this out. Hopefully one of the managers close to this can sort it out. I will obviously approve a merge, and maybe this file on the Google books may have something new to add.
edited by Michael Schindler
welcome to the mess that is the Fisher family (families) in early Pennsylvania!
I agree that what we have are two profiles in need of merging. I've created an Unmerged Match for them.
Birthdate: 1646 is a guess-timate for John Fisher; there is no source. His son, Thomas married in a 1692 monthly meeting, suggesting a birth year of 1674 or earlier. There is some evidence of a 1666 christening for Thomas Fish or Fisher in Clitheroe, which is what Thomas Fisher's profile uses. I do feel 1658 is too early for John Fisher I -- do you have a source for this?
Death: if this is the John Fisher who died on 6 Feb 1685 (1686 in modern dating), then the Bucks county location is not correct. The will was a Sussex County, Delaware will.
Find A Grave: that particular memorial is just not a very good source. No stone, no burial info, no source. Note the 2nd marriage to Sarah Hutchinson in Yorkshire in the FAG bio? Apparently John Fisher was a bigamist, as 1st wife Margaret Hindle Fisher survived her husband and was dealing with stolen cattle in 1688 in Sussex County, Delaware. The FAG parents for John Fisher, Nicholas Fisher & Elizabeth, are also unsourced. Not impossible, but speculative.
Your book on Middletown history looks interesting, and I will try to get to the Fisher stuff within the next few weeks. I dipped my toe in, but there's a lot of material. Be aware that there are sources that conflict with some of the bio material starting at the bottom of page 27, as John Fisher son of John I also seems to have been in Lewes (now DE) & also his family? This may be a case of multiple authors wanting their ancestor on the Penn Fleet and may be tricky to sort out. As I said, I'll read further in the Middletown book by the end of January.
As far as John Fisher I goes, if you're willing to accept an earlier birth year, then let's remove the Unmerged Match and go forward with a Merge. If we run into problems with John Fisher 2, we can sort things out later.
edited by AM Hayes
I took that death date from Ancestry, sand they used the FAG reference for that date. And yes that Chronicles of Middletown author CH Hutchinson could have made a mistake--but I think he admits he copied some of his information from some others. I am reading another book about Middletown that has the George who settled and laid out the town of Middletown, and mentions the John Adams Fisher Esquire who was an attorney in Harrisburg, PA. So far I see nothing there on the earlier Fisher's. Yes, I agree with your suggestion of the earlier date to complete the merge. I dipped my foot into the wrong pond not knowing what was beneath the water. I'm surprised this isn't part of the W.Penn and early settlers project.
They connect here, but I have been comparing information betwee Family Search,here, and Ancestry, and a couple books on Fishers. I have decided once again to back off. Good luck and I would be happy to add anyone else as a manager to the above two prifiles.
For now, back to building bird houses for spring.
edited by Michael Schindler
edited by AM Hayes
Or that Margaret is not the mother of his children. She was too young to be those boy's mother
I have disconnected Sarah Hutchinson from this John Fisher who was a man from Lancashire, and married to Margaret Hindle. Sarah must have married a different John Fisher, possibly someone from Yorkshire, as that is where their son, also John Fisher, was born. Margaret (Hindle) Fisher is named in John Fisher's 1686 will.
There are several Fisher families in DE and PA during this time period -- it gets super confusing. Many Johns and Thomases. Fisher, J.L., the First Fishers of of Pennsylvania and Adjacent Colonies, Copyright 2010 by J.L. Fisher. Reproduction is permitted. Published by Bryce Engelhart, Engelhart Printing, Wimberley, Texas [1] has been very helpful to me in my research!
Or, if you feel strongly that this person is a Yorkshireman, lets detach him from the Philadelphia/Sussex, Delaware Fishers and attach my John to them instead.