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Joan FitzJohn (bef. 1189 - 1237)

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Joan "Lady of Wales, Lady of Snowdon" FitzJohn
Born before in London, Middlesex, Englandmap
Ancestors ancestors
Wife of — married [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Died in Aberystwyth (Aber), Ceredigion, Dyfed, Walesmap
Profile last modified | Created 22 Sep 2014
This page has been accessed 7,413 times.

Categories: House of Plantagenet | Day-1904 Temporary Euroaristo Project.

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King John of England had two daughters named Joan. The names also appear in both cases as Joanna:

  • Joan of England, born July 22 1210 of King John's marriage to Isabella of Angouleme, who married Alexander II of Scotland
  • Joan, born of one of several of King John's non-marital relationships. This Joan died 2 February 1237 and what is known of her life appears below.

Disputed Parentage

King John Lackland acknowledged his natural daughter Joan, so there is no question regarding paternity. [1]

Joan's mother, however, is the subject of an ongoing historical debate, which is summarized below.

Joan was born at a time when both King John "Lackland" and Joan's mother were unmarried, according to letters of pope Honorius III in 1228 legitimating Joan. [2] Addressing Joan, Pope Honorius' April 1226 document states, "King John of England, when unmarried, fathered you by an unmarried woman." [3] This places Joan's birth prior to August 1189, when when John married Isabella of Gloucester."

King John, born December 24, 1166, would have been several months short of 23 when he married Isabella, so the several years immediately prior to 1189 are of greatest interest in learning of Joan's birth. During the period 1187-1189 John was spending almost all of his time in France, away from the court and his familiar social environs in England. He was in France in 1187 when Chateauroux was being beseiged. He may have returned to England with his father in January 1188 but in the summer of 1188 was sent back to Normandy by his father. In August 1189 Richard brings John back to England with him and later that month he is married to Isabelle of Gloucester. [4] This suggests the likelihood that Joan was conceived in France.

Clemence, the prime candidate for mother

The only contemporary evidence of the mother's name does not support her being Agatha Ferrers.[5] See Disputed Parentage on Joan's profile page.

The only document that names Joan's mother is Joan's own obituary which notes the death of Joanna, "lady of Wales and wife of llywelyn, daughter of King John and Queen Clementia." (Obiit domina Johanna domina Wallia, uxor Lewelini filia Regis Johannis et regina Clemencie, iii. Kal. Aprilis.”) [6] The reference to Clementia as queen is surprising, since she was never queen. Sharon Kay Penman suggests that since the obituary was written after Joan's legitimation, the monk making the record may have simply assumed that since Joan became legitimate after the fact, her mother became queen after the fact. [4]

It is also noted that Clemence is a relatively uncommon name in England in this period, but more common in France. [4]

When in December 1203 Joan's marriage Llywelyn ap Iorwerth was being arranged, the royal financial records of the time record the expense of bringing Joan from Normandy. [4] This suggests that Joan was living in Normandy at the time; John was not given to unnecessary expenses for his children and it is difficult to imagine John incurring the expense of sending her to Normandy if she had no reason to be there.

While none of this proves the origins of Joan's mother, it provides a preponderance of circumstantial evidence that her father was King John, that her mother was a woman named Clemence, that Joan was born before 1189, and that she most likely grew up in Normandy or elsewhere in France.

G. R. Stephens acknowledges that Joan seems to have spent her childhood in France, since John brought her from there for her marriage. At the time, 1203, Joan was about 15. That same year, John's expenses for her were recorded in Normandy. While Stephens supposes the Normandy travel may have referred to Joan's half-sister of the same name, that Joan was probably not even born in 1203. [7]

One of the key acknowledgements of the relationship between John and Clemence is an entry in the annals of Tewkesbury: Obiit domina Johanna domina Wallia, uxor Lewelini filia Regis Johannis et regina Clemencie, iii. Kal. Aprilis.” (Died lady Joanna, lady of Wales, wife of Llywelyn, daughter of King John and Queen Clementia, 3 Kal. April.” [8] Clemence was never a queen; Penman suggests that the monk making the entry, following Joan's legitimation by the Pope, assumes that since Joan had, after the fact, been made legitimate, her mother had, after the fact, been made a queen.

But which Clemence?

Per Wikipedia: Her name is known only from Joan's obituary in the Tewkesbury Annals, where she is called "Regina Clementina" (Queen Clemence). Associated with King John 1 of England, illegitimate daughter Joan.

Joan's mother could be Clemence unknown, or another Clemence or Clementia.

Sharon Kay Penman's blog identifies the alternative women who have been suggested as the possible mother of Joan:

Taking the story of each of these ladies in turn, I found the following:

*'Clemence de Dauntsey' A genealogist named Paget identified a Clemence de Dauntsey as the wife of Nicholas de Verdun, to whom Henry III granted the custody of Susanna in 1228. Subsequent review indicates there was no such person as Clemence de Dauntsey. [4]

  • Clemence le Boteler "Clemence le Boteler was born about 1175 in Steeple Lavington, Wiltshire. Her father was Philip le Boteler (born circa 1150). Clemence le Boteler married Nicholas de Verdun in 1202 (his second wife after his marriage to Joan Fitz Piers. Note, this marriage is not proven) at Alton, Staffordshire and they had one child, Rohese de Verdun who was born in 1203 or 1205 (died. Feb 1247). If, indeed, Joanna was the result of a liaison between John and Clemence le Boteler (who would have been aged around 14-15 at the time), it would have been very difficult for the Le Boteler family to find a suitable husband for Clemence. Indeed some ten years pass before a marriage is arranged (by John and his family?) with a trustworthy English nobleman and property holder, Nicholas de Verdun. Leaving aside for the moment the possibility that Nicholas had fallen in love with the 27 year old Clemence and wanted to marry her, it would have been necessary for John to provide Clemence with some property of her own so that she became a more attractive prize for her husband to be. The records now show a minor player, Philip Boteler, with seemingly little property, who comes into considerable property that is passed on through his daughter, Clemence. The CLR, 1245-51, p111 shows that although the properties of Wilsford and Stoke Farthing in Wiltshire first appear in de Verdun hands during their daughter Rohese’s tenure of the family estates, they first came to the family as a result of Nicholas de Verdun’s marriage to Clemence le Boteler. This is revealed in a plea of 1243 in which Rohese claimed to hold Stoke Farthing as the heir of Philip Boteler, the father of the said Clemence. [CRR, vol. 17, no 1462]. In 1228, it appears that this same Clemence and her husband Nicholas were chosen to receive custody of Joanna and Llywelyn’s daughter Susanna (aged about 14?). The purpose for the placement (apart from housing a hostage), seems to be for the child to be brought up in a safe and secure environment with the opportunity for a better education. Of course, would this Clemence be the mother of Joanna, she would also be the grandmother of Susanna, though there is no reason to believe that the young Joanna knew, at this time, that there was a family relationship, if the truth were being kept from her. The custodial grant was by King Henry III, half-brother to Joanna and half-uncle to Susanna, yet the decree called Susanna, Henry’s ‘niece’ and Joanna, Henry’s ‘sister’.’ A question now poses itself. If Joanna was the daughter of Clemence le Boteler, from, apparently an English household, how do we explain what Joanna was doing in France when King John sent for her in 1203? One possible answer is that Clemence’s father, Philip le Boteler was French, rather than English. It was quite common at the time for people to hold properties on both sides of the Channel. This may also explain why he named his daughter ‘Clemence’, a name more common in French families than in English families during this period." [4]
  • Clemence Pinel. "The only publication where I have encountered a reference to Clemence Pinel – wife of Henry Pinel (apart from Charles Cawley in Wikipedia) is in Alison Weir’s ‘England’s Royal Families: The complete Genealogy (London, 1989).’ This publication is noted by one genealogist as ‘not very fully annotated.’ My own trawl through the genealogy forums found scant reference to the Pinel family, including Clemence’s husband Henry Pinel. Several entries suggest that Joanna was the daughter of Henry Pinel and his wife Clemence, but no sources, capable of being checked, are offered. I am therefore inclined to discount this lady from further investigation. I could be very wrong!!!!"[4]

*Clemence de Fougers. "Clemence de Fougers was the sister of Richard de Hommet, Constable of Normandy, and Geoffrey de Fougeres. Her father was Guillaume de Fougères, seigneur de Fougères in Brittany and her mother Agatha du Hommet, daughter of Guillaume du Hommet, Constable of Normandy, by Lucy, granddaughter of Adam de Brus. [9] She first married Alain de Vitre who died 1198, seigneur of Dinan[10] Clemence was prominent enough to marry in October 1200, as her next husband, Ranulph de Blundeville, Earl of Chester and Vicomte d’Avranches. In 1189, aged seventeen, Ranulph had been married to Constance of Brittany the widow of Henry II's son Geoffrey, and the mother of Arthur of Brittany with whom King John contested the succession. Henry did not trust the Countess and wanted her married to a magnate he could trust. The marriage gave Ranulph control of the earldom of Richmond and the duchy of Brittany, but it was not a success (see subject 6. below). The couple had no issue and they separated. It was rumoured that Earl Ranulph divorced Constance for having had an affair with King John! Given that Clemence de Fougers was daughter and sister of Constables of Normandy, It is thought likely that John, Count of Mortain, in Normandy, knew of her [and perhaps *knew* her, prior to her marriage to Ranulph]. A close connection to John might explain what would seem a very advantageous second marriage for Clemence to Ranulph. Ranulph, 6th Earl of Chester however, was a powerful baron and it beggars belief, at least for me, that he would have accepted a marriage to a woman who had had a known affair and a subsequent child by John, Count of Mortain some ten years previously. Particularly given the rumours surrounding a possible affair between John and his first wife Constance! [4] No documentation other than circumstances of name, proximity in time and space, confirm the speculation. Sharon Penman questions why Ranulph would be interested in marrying Clemence in 1200 if Clemence by that time had an 11 year old daughter whose father was the king. [4]

The only source that explicitly names Joan's mother is her obit in the Tewkesbury Annals: "Obiit domina Johanna domina Walliae, uxor Lewelini filia regis Johannis et regina Clemencie, iii. kal. Aprilis."

It is suggested[11] that the only Queen Clemence in Europe at that time was Clemence of Toulouse, wife of Sancho VII of Navarre. But it seems doubtful that John could have had an affair with such a prominent woman without mention.

A much more likely candidate is Clemence, wife of Nicholas de Verdun. From the Patent Rolls of the Reign of Henry III comes this entry from 1228, from King Henry III (son of King John and thusly Joan's half-brother):

Rex dilecto et fideli suo Nicholao de Verdun et Clementie uxori sue, salutem. Sciatis quod nos vobis benigne concedimus quod fidelis noster et dilectus frater L. princeps Norwallie et Johanna uxor sua et dilecta soror nostra Susannam filiam suam, neptem nostram, vobis committere duxerit [sic] nutriendam, eam salvo et secure et sine omni dampno et occasione suscipiatis et penes vos retineatis. In cujus rei testimonium etc. vobis mittimus. Teste me, apud Westmonasterium, xxiiij die Novembris, anno etc.

The entry notes that Henry III put his niece Susanna[12] in the care of Nicholas de Verdun and his wife Clemence. This entry is worth a second look since it's possible that Joan's mother was also named Clemence. If true, she would've had an obvious interest in her granddaughter Susanna.

Clemence was the daughter of Philip le Boteler.[13] She inherited lands in Steeple Lavington, Wiltshire that she later gave to another granddaughter. She and Nicholas de Verdun had one known daughter and heiress, Rohese.

Rohese de Verdun first married William Perceval de Somery[14]. They had Nicholas[15]. She later married Theobald Butler in 1225.[16] When Nicholas de Verdun died in 1231, Clemence was still living in October of that year. So was Rohese.

Constance, Duchess of Brittany

Constance, Duchess of Brittany "Constance was born on the 12th June 1161 in Brittany and was married to (1) Geoffrey Plantagenet in 1181. Geoffrey was killed in a riding accident in 1186 and Constance married (2) Ranulph de Blundeville, 4th Earl of Chester, on 3rd February 1188, in a marriage arranged by King Henry 11. This marriage deteriorated and Ranulph imprisoned Constance in 1196. Rebellions were sparked across Brittany on her behalf and Ranulph released her in 1198. Back in Brittany, Constance had her marriage annulled and later in 1198, she took Guy de Tours as her ‘second’ husband. Constance died aged 40, (possibly of leprosy, possibly after giving birth to twin girls) on 5th September 1201 at Nantes.[4]

The theory that Constance had an affair with John after the death of Geoffrey and before John’s marriage to Isabella of Gloucester in 1189, and that she was mother to Joanna is very contentious and has provoked much discussion within genealogical circles. One comment from a genealogist states that ‘the journal ‘The Plantagenet Connection’ has published an ahnentafel of Elizabeth Plantagenet, wife of Henry VII, which gives Joanna’s mother’s name as Constance (perhaps misnamed Clemence?), Duchess of Brittany. [4]

This is the Constance who was John’s sister-in-law! Considering the well-known animosity between John and Constance and her own attempts to press her son Arthur’s interests as far as the throne of England was concerned (and we all know how disastrously that turned out!), I really find the proposed relationship a little hard to swallow. The Constance that history portrays does not strike me as one whom John could easily coerce into bed.’ [4]

Again on the subject of Constance, John Parsons, an eminent historian/genealogist writes: ‘A theory that would identify Joanna’s mother as Constance fails to take into account a very critical point in canon law. By merely having sex with John, let alone bearing him a child, Constance would have established a first-degree relationship of affinity with all of John’s siblings –– including John’s brother Geoffrey. Even though this was not a consanguineous relationship but one of affinity, any first-degree relationship would have rendered matrimony between Constance and any of John’s brothers impossible without a dispensation –– which given the party’s rank would have had to come from the pope himself. That would mean that some trace of the matter must surely have come down to us, whether it involved the request for it, the deliberations, or the actual dispensation itself. As far as I am aware, nothing of the kind exists.’ [4]

My own opinion for what it’s worth, is that had Constance been the mother of Joanna she would surely have brought her up in her household and her name would be as well known as Constance’s other children by Geoffrey (Eleanor, Fair Maid of Brittany, Matilda/Maud of Brittany and Arthur)."[4]

Agatha of Ferrers, an Alternate Candidate

It is well known that Agatha was a mistress of John and several family trees give her, though unmarried, as the mother of Joanna. [4]

Most genealogists however are of the opinion that it is only supposition that she is Joanna’s mother as no proof or records exist to demonstrate this. [4]

One source frequently given is Sir William Dugdale, in the Baronage of England (1675-6). He states his source to be Dr David Howell’s ‘History of Wales’ (1584). Powell’s work is an enlarged edition of H Lloyd’s translation of ‘The Historie of Cambria’ by the 12th century Saint Caradoc of Llancarfan. [4]

Another source, ‘Magna Carta Barons’ by Charles Browning, copyright 1969 also names Agatha de Ferrers, daughter of Robert de Ferrers, fourth Earl of derby, as Joanna’s mother. [4]

Although she cannot be entirely dismissed as a candidate for mother of Joanna, surely there would be some trace of her in a chronicle or other historic reference, if she had indeed been the mother of the wife of the Prince of North Wales. [4]

The History and Antiquities of the County of Buckingham gives a pedigree of the Ferrers family and shows Agatha, daughter of Robert, as "concubine of King John; mother of Joane, wife of Llywelyn, Prince of Wales." [17] Note a copy of this pedigree is attached as an image.

Citing an email from Tim Boyle, The Peerage identifies a child of Agatha de Ferrers and John I 'Lackland', King of England as Joan, born illegitimately [18]

She could also be Agatha de Ferrers.[19]

In 1823 William Warrington wrote, "About 1203, the English King, having lost a great part of his territories in France, returned into England. On his arrival, he gave Joan, a daughter, which he had by a lady of the house of Ferres, in marriage to Llewelyn; as a reward for the due observance of the late treaty, or as a means of securing those advantages, which he might think would naturally result from such an alliance. With this lady, was given as a dower, the lordship of Elesmere in Shropshire." This Warrington, unfortunately, made a number of errors, including his statement that LLywelyn had married Tangwystl, generally recognized as his mistress, early in life. [20]

"Agatha was born about 1168 in Chartley Castle, Staffordshire. It is well known that she was a mistress of John and several family trees give her, though unmarried, as the mother of Joanna. Most genealogists however are of the opinion that it is only supposition that she is Joanna’s mother as no proof or records exist to demonstrate this. One source frequently given is Sir William Dugdale, in the Baronage of England (1675-6). He states his source to be Dr David Howell’s ‘History of Wales’ (1584). Powell’s work is an enlarged edition of H Lloyd’s translation of ‘The Historie of Cambria’ by the 12th century Saint Caradoc of Llancarfan. Another source, ‘Magna Carta Barons’ by Charles Browning, copyright 1969 also names Agatha de Ferrers, daughter of Robert de Ferrers, fourth Earl of derby, as Joanna’s mother. Although she cannot be entirely dismissed as a candidate for mother of Joanna, surely there would be some trace of her in a chronicle or other historic reference, if she had indeed been the mother of the wife of the Prince of North Wales. I can find no record of Agatha having ever married and it is possible that she and John had a long standing relationship. The date of her death is unknown." [4]


1188 Birth

She was born, probably in Normandy, about 1188, prior to the marriage of her father King John, to his first wife.

1205 Marriage to Llywelyn ap Iorwerth

Joan was betrothed to Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (q.v.) in 1204 , and married to him in 1205. [1]

Joan married Llywelyn the Great[21] Category: House of Hanover[22]at Ascensiontide 1206,[23] Joan and Llywelyn were married , probably around mid-May.[24][25]

1211-1232 Intermediary between Llywelyn and John

Her role as ambassador and intermediary between her husband and the Crown in the period 1211-32 was an important one. [1]

1226 Legitimacy

In April 1226 Joan obtained a papal decree from Pope Honorius III, declaring her legitimate on the basis that her parents had been unmarried at the time of her birth, but without giving her a claim to the English throne.

Daughter Susanna Placed as Hostage

In 1228 King John placed Susanna, daughter of Llywelyn, Prince of North Wale, and his wife Joan, in the custody of Nicholas de Verdun and his wife Clemence. Since there is no indication that Llywelyn and Joan were unable to care for Susanna, or that King Joan was given to care for the wellbeing of relatives' children, it generally assumed that Susanna was so placed as a hostage to guarantee the good behavior of Llywelyn and Joan. [26]

Richardson further notes, "If Clemence was Susanna's grandmother, it would explain her inclusion in the grant of Susanna's custody. Regardless, stronger evidence is needed before any firm conclusion can be drawn about a possible relationship between these families." [26]

1230 Liaison with William de Breos and Incarceration

At Easter 1230, William de Braose, 10th Baron Abergavenny, who was Llywelyn's nominal prisoner at the time, was discovered together with Joan in Llywelyn's bedchamber. William de Braose was hanged in the marshland at the foot of Garth Celyn, the place known since as Gwern y Grog.

Joan herself was placed out of public view, under virtual house arrest, at Garth Celyn, for twelve months after the incident. She was then (apparently) forgiven by Llywelyn, and restored as wife and princess. She may have given birth to a daughter early in 1231.

In 1230, Llywelyn discovered Joan in adultery with William de Braose in their bedchamber. William de Braose was hanged, and Joan herself was imprisoned for some time before Llywelyn accepted her back as his wife.

The liaison with William de Breos (see Braose family ), which resulted in the execution of William and a short term of imprisonment for Joan, did not permanently end Llywelyn 's attachment to Joan, which appears to have been genuine, since she was freed from house arrest after a year. [1]

1237 Death

When Joan died at the palace of Aber in Wales on 2 Feb. 1237 her body was conveyed across the Menai and buried in a new cemetery near the manor of Llan-faes , where Llywelyn founded a Franciscan friary in her memory. She was the mother of Dafydd ap Llywelyn (q.v.) . [A stone coffin, removed from Llan-faes at the Dissolution, and now preserved in S. Mary's church at Beaumaris , is reputed to be hers.][1]

Joan was never called Princess of Wales, but, in Welsh, "Lady of Wales." She died at the royal home, Garth Celyn, Aber Garth Celyn, on the north coast of Gwynedd in 1237. Llywelyn's great grief at her death is recorded; he founded a Franciscan friary on the seashore at Llanfaes, opposite the royal home, in her honour. The friary was consecrated in 1240, shortly before Llywelyn died.

Joan was buried at the priory of Llanfaes near Beaumaris. Her sarcophogus is at Beaumaris parish church, Anglesey.[27]

(Royal Ancestry) His (Llywelyn's) wife, Joan, died at Aber (colloquial name for Aberystwyth) 2 Feb.1237, and was buried in the new cemetery at Friars Minors, Llanfaes, Angelsey.


Clearly the Children of Joan

  1. Elen ferch Llywelyn (Helen or Ellen) (1207-1253) m.1 John le Scot, Earl of Chester; m.2 Robert II de Quincy[28]
  2. Dafydd ap Llywelyn (c. 1215-1246) m. Isabella de Braose[29]
  3. Susanna[30][31][32]

Possibly the Children of Joan

  1. Gwladus Ddu (1206-1251) m.1 Reginald de Braose; m.2 Ralph de Mortimer

Children of Llywelyn's Mistresses

Llywelyn had several mistresses; only one is known: Tangwystl Goch (c.1168-1198[citation needed]). Sources do not agree on the mothers of Llywelyn's children.[33]

  1. Gruffydd ap Llywelyn (c.1196-1244)[34] m. Senena[35] Issue.[36]
  2. Tegwared ap Llywelyn[37]
  3. Marared ferch Llywelyn (c.1198-after 1263) m.1 John de Braose of Gower[38]; m.2 Walter Clifford of Bronllys and Clifford.[39]
  4. Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn m. William de Lacey
  5. Angharad ferch Llywelyn m. Maelgwn Fychan


  1. 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 Professor Thomas Jones Pierce, M.A., F.S.A., (1905-1964), . Dictionary of Welsh Biography. Sources: A History of Wales; Oxford Dictional of National Biography. Accessed February 29, 2016
  2. Note posted by John Carmi Parsons on soc.genealogy.medieval board, 2/25/99. Accessed July 7, 2017. jhd
  3. Johannes Rex anglie solutus te genuerit de soluta, transcribed from the original, unpublished Register of Honorius III (Reg. Vat. 13, fol. 122), cited by Sharon Kay Penman, The Mother of Joanna of Wales, wife of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth. Posted on her Blog. Accessed July 7, 2017. jhd
  4. 4.00 4.01 4.02 4.03 4.04 4.05 4.06 4.07 4.08 4.09 4.10 4.11 4.12 4.13 4.14 4.15 4.16 4.17 4.18 4.19 Sharon Kay Penman, The Mother of Joanna of Wales, wife of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth. Posted on her Blog. Accessed July 7, 2017. jhd
  5. The only source that explicitly names Joan's mother is her obit in the Tewkesbury Annals: "Obiit domina Johanna domina Walliae, uxor Lewelini filia regis Johannis et regina Clemencie, iii. kal. Aprilis." See p 825, Dictionary of National Biography, Vol. X, Sir Leslie Stephen, Sir Sidney Lee Smith (Elder & Company, 1908)
  6. Henry Richard Luard, Annales Monastici, 1 (1864): 101, cited by Sharon Kay Penman, The Mother of Joanna of Wales, wife of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth. Posted on her Blog. Accessed July 7, 2017. jhd
  7. G.R. Stephens, The Early Life of Joan Makepeace, Speculum 20, 1945
  8. Henry Richard Luard, Annales Monastici, I (1864): 101, cited by Sharon Kay Penman, The Mother of Joanna of Wales, wife of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth. Posted on her Blog. Accessed July 7, 2017. jhd
  9. Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Volume 3, page 12.
  10. Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Volume 2, page 152.
  12. daughter of Llywelyn and Joan
  13. Curia Regis Roll, 1243 [17:281-2 (no. 1462)
  14. d. by Jun 1222
  15. d. Young before 04 Ju 1229; his heir was his uncle Roger de Somery
  16. Issue.
  17. The history and antiquities of the county of Buckingham, pg 252-253 Ferrers Pedigree Accessed July 8, 2017. jhd
  18. See their profiles (Clemence & Agatha) for more information; see also the Marriage and Issue section on her husband's profile
  19. William Warrington, W., (1823). The History of Wales in Nine Books with an Appendix, 4ed., Vol.2, Book VII, Llewelyn ap Iorwerth. Brecon: 1823. Google Books, pp 16-17. Accessed February 16, 2016
  20. Richardson, p. 563-564, retrieved 2014-08-02, amb
  21. son of Iorwerth Drwyndwn ap Owain Gwynedd Prince of North Wales and Marared ferch Madog ap Maredudd.
  22. Worcester Annals
  23. According to May 1206 at Chester.
  24. married 1205, according to Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG)
  25. 26.0 26.1 Douglas Richardson. Royal Ancestry. Volume 1, page 52.
  26. Above the empty coffin is a slate panel inscribed: This plain sarcophagus, (once dignified as having contained the remains of Joan, daughter of King John, and consort of Llewelyn ap Iowerth, Prince of North Wales, who died in the year 1237), having been conveyed from the Friary of Llanfaes, and alas, used for many years as a horse watering trough, was rescued from such an indignity and placed here for preservation as well as to excite serious meditation on the transitory nature of all sublunary distinctions. By Thomas James Warren Bulkeley, Viscount Bulkeley, Oct 1808.
  27. son of Saher IV de Quincy 1st Earl of Winchester and Margaret de Beaumont.
  28. died at Garth Celyn, Aber Garth Celyn.
  29. sent to England as a hostage in 1228
  30. named in the 1228 patent roll.
  31. Melrose Chronicle states that Malcolm, Earl of Fife, married a daughter of Llywelyn Fawr circa 1230. Malcolm was a supporter of Henry III. The most likely candidate for his wife is Susanna, who we know was in England in 1228, and could easily have been given to Malcolm by her uncle Henry III.
  32. Richardson's Royal Ancestry, Vol V, p 298, notes Joan as mother of Dafydd and "several daughters, including Gwaladus Ddu, Ellen, Susanna, and possibly _____ (wife of Malcolm, 7th Earl of Fife), and allegedly Angharad." Richardson says his illegitimate children were "by various mistresses" (he does not name Tangwystl). Llywelyn's entry in the Rootsweb database for Celtic Royal Genealogy shows four illegimate children by Tangwystl and four by other mistresses; Llywelyn's information in the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG) shows only Gruffydd as a child of Tangwystl.
  33. Llywelyn's eldest son. Mother: Tangwystl.
  34. Dau. Caradoc ap Thomas of Anglesey.
  35. 4 sons include Llywelyn ap Gruffydd, who for a period occupied a position in Wales comparable to that of his grandfather, and Dafydd ap Gruffydd who ruled Gwynedd briefly after his brother's death.
  36. by Crysten
  37. nephew of Reginald de Braose
  38. see this section of Margaret's profile for a discussion of who her mother was.

See also:

  • Royal Ancestry 2013 Vol. V p. 298-302
  • Costain, T.B. (1958). The Three Edwards. ISBN 0-445-08513-4
  • Cussans, T. (n.d.). The Times Kings & Queens of The British Isles, (pp. 84, 86, 87). ISBN 0-0071-4195-5
  • Richardson, D. (2011). Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study In Colonial And Medieval Families, (2ed). Google Books.
  • N.a. (n.d.). Pedigrees of some of the Emperor Charlemagne's Descendants. N.p.[citation needed]
  • N.a. (n.d.). Queens of England. N.p.[citation needed]
  • N.a. (n.d.). Four Gothic Kings. N.p.[citation needed]
  • N.a. (n.d.). The Oxford History of the British Monarchy. N.p.[citation needed]
  • N.a. (n.d.). Now I Remember. N.p.[citation needed]
  • N.a. (n.d.). They Came with the Conqueror. N.p.[citation needed]
  • Prestwich, M. (1998). Edward I. Yale University Press ISBN 0-300-07209-0 )

(, June 18, 1205 in England

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No known carriers of Joan's mitochondrial DNA have taken an mtDNA test.

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On 21 Apr 2018 at 15:25 GMT Stephen McCallum wrote:

555 Wikidata - Different birth date

On 6 Jul 2017 at 18:06 GMT Jack Day wrote:

I've taken on reviewing, documenting and enhancing this profile under Euroaristo's Conquer the Conquerer subproject. If anyone has suggestions, recommendations or warnings for me as I look at this profile, please let me know!

On 5 Jul 2017 at 23:41 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

I think that EditBot may have overstepped what it intended when it changed "Category:Prince of Wales" to "Category: House of Hanover".

Not sure how to fix it since Catgory:Prince of Wales is no more.

On 26 Feb 2016 at 14:45 GMT Jack Day wrote:

Cawley (FMG) only shows three of Llywelyn's children --Dafydd, Helen and Susanna, as having his wife Joan as their mother. The mother of his eldest son Gruffudd was Llywelyn's mistress Tangwystl, and all of Llywelyn's other children were by unknown mistresses -- according to Cawley. So it would seem like Gwladys should be in the disputed category, and Llywelyn's other children, identified in the text, should be delinked from Joan, though not from Llywelyn!

On 15 Feb 2016 at 05:55 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

ah - perhaps of use (google group post:

Elen/Ellen/Helen, legitimate daughter of Llywelyn by his wife Joan [see CCR Henry III, 3:538-9, and Andrew B. W. MacEwen, "Elen, Countess of Chester: a daughter of Joan, Princess of North Wales, _The Genealogist 4:137-8], married John 'le Scot', Earl of Huntingdon, Cambridge and Chester, son of David, Earl of Huntingdon and his wife Maud [of Chester]. Helen is suspected of poisoning her first husband (she afterwards married Robert de Quincy, who died s.p.). At John 'le Scots death, his heirs were the two daughters of his eldest sister and his three surviving other sisters.

On 15 Feb 2016 at 05:44 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

Hi again! Could y'all look at the profiles for the Elens/Helens? I think there are too many of them. Also, Bartrum, Richardson, & Turner-Thomas list two Angharads for him (see list of children on Lywelyn's profile). The profile for Agatha shows she died young (1214-1217), but needs a better source. An Agatha isn't mentioned anywhere in his tree that I can see (well, distantly - Unknown-59030)

On 10 Feb 2016 at 16:50 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

Update: I've done some editing, but I didn't change the section that presents her children by John. For the attached profiles, Margaret's profile is done. Erin Cole is tackling the two profiles for Gwladus (see his G2G post). That just leaves the Elens/Helens.

Hi! I know my "to-do" category to review the attached profiles has been on this profile for a while. Recent discussion about "daughter" Margaret has prompted bumping her up to my "To Do Today or Tomorrow" list. See

Cheers, Liz

On 20 Jul 2015 at 17:21 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

update: merge completed

Plantangenet-2 and FitzJohn-120 appear to represent the same person because: dates are off between the two, but these profiles are both intended to represent the same person. Please merge. Thanks!

On 9 Jul 2015 at 10:51 GMT Gene Adkins Jr. wrote:

FitzJohn-120 and England-852 appear to represent the same person because: same name, same birth date, same birth and death place, same time frame, same locations, not sure about marriage to Ogle, but she was notorious.

On 27 Mar 2015 at 21:00 GMT Vic Watt wrote:

John had two daughters named Joan, one legitimate and the other not. It was the other Joan who married Llewellyn, so I removed him as husband. i will also remove the Llewellyn children

more comments

Joan is 26 degrees from Robin Helstrom, 26 degrees from Katy Jurado and 17 degrees from Victoria of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland on our single family tree. Login to find your connection.

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