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Gilbert Giffard (abt. 1065 - bef. 1129)

Gilbert Giffard
Born about in England or Francemap
Son of [father unknown] and [mother unknown]
[sibling(s) unknown]
[spouse(s) unknown]
Descendants descendants
Died before before about age 64 in Winterbourne Monkton, Marlborough, Wiltshire, Englandmap
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Profile last modified | Created 27 Sep 2015
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DISPUTED PARENTAGE - See the discussion and citations below.
Since all parentage proposals are still disputed and unproven, they have been removed.
These profiles were previously parents: Rollo Cheddar, Geoffrey Le Mareschal, and Sibyl di Conversano .
Please don't attach any parents without first discussing via post on G2G. (Darlene Athey Hill - 26 Sep 2015)

Contents

Biography

Gilbert Giffard was a tenant of Glastonbury manor in Winterbourne Monkton in Wiltshire, and held a position as a marshal to the King. As explained by Stacy, it included "a 3 1/2-hide subtenancy over which the abbot's lordship had been recognized in 1086 and was to be again in 1173 and thereafter, but which was absent from the carta of 1166".

He, or possibly a relative of the same name, also appears in Domesday book.

In genealogy, a remarkable point about recent research into Gilbert is that he has now been accepted as the grandfather of William Marshal.

Children

Gilbert had two sons:

  1. John Fitz-Gilbert, who was accepted as being "chief" Marshal of England while his father still lived, in the time of King Henry I. Probably the first of his family to use the job title as a surname. Born about 1105.
  2. William Giffard or Fitz-Gilbert, born about 1107. He became chancellor to Queen Mathilda.[1]

That Gilbert was the name of the grandfather of William the Marshall was known because William's father was often referred to as John fitz (son of) Gilbert. That Gilbert, John's father, was already involved in the family's tradition of claiming a royal marshalcy was also indicated from a record in the time of King John, although the nature of that marshalcy in his generation is not well understood.[2] However the identification of Gilbert with records for a man normally called Gilbert Giffard (or Gibard) has become widespread since a publication of N. E. Stacy in 1999 concerning Gilbert's landlord.[3] He not only showed that Giffard had a tax exemption, such as his descendants did for their marshalcy, and that his lands were inherited by the Marshals, but also that Gilbert Giffard's son William Giffard or William fitz Gilbert, was presented to the church of Cheddar as "William Giffard, son of Gilbert the king's marshal".

Parentage

Concerning his parentage, various theories exist but none are proven. Each tends to start with one known thing, and build from there:

  • Other Giffards. Starting from the newest known information, the surname Giffard, Crouch for example notes that it was a common descriptive second name meaning "chubby cheeks" and says "It is highly unlikely that Gilbert Giffard was related to the Conqueror's leading follower, Walter Giffard, Earl of Buckingham; it is conceivable on the grounds of proximity, however, that he might have had a connection with the unrelated West Country barons, the Giffards of Brimpsfield." (Traditionally the Giffards of Brimpsfield and Bucks are often linked.[4] Some still suspect there is a link.[5])
  • Robert in 1086 in Lavington, Wiltshire ("Robert Marshall") and/or Cheddar, Somerset. Keats-Rohan has an entry for Gilbert in "Domesday People" (p.214) under "Gislebert Gibart", apparently an entry written without reference to Stacey. She adds that "The fee of Robert Gibart is mentioned in Hist. S. Petri Glocs. ii, 230."[6] More promising, in her later "Domesday Descendants" she cites Stacey and has him under "Marescal, Gilbert" (p.1029). She suggests he might be the son of "Robert marshal, who occurs in Domesday Wiltshire" (Domesday People p.391). However although she cites Complete Peerage, in footnote g, Appendix G, Complete Peerage says "Gilbert may have been son or grandson of an otherwise unknown Robert, who in 1086 held Cheddar, Somerset, under Roger de Courseulles (Domesday Book, vol i, fol 94; cf note 'h' infra). Robert the Marshal, who in 1086 held Lavington, Wilts, in chief (Idem, vol i, f. 73) has been suggested as the possible progenitor of the family (Davis, op. cit., pp xxvi - xxvii); but this is unlikely as in 1166 Lavington was held by Piers de la Mare (Red Book, p 248)." It therefore appears that Keats-Rohan was following up the lead of CP, seeking for evidence that Robert in Lavington having other land holdings that might correspond to those known for the later Marshall family, specifically in Cheddar where Gilbert had presented his son to the church (see above). The Robert in Cheddar has an entry in Domesday People called "Robert Herecom" (p.389[7]). According to a summary of this line of thought by Chris Phillips, Keats-Rohan's various entries give "a slightly complicated picture, but maybe worth investigating further".[8]
  • Other Marshals. Older works speculated based on the longer-known above-mentioned claim to a "chief marshalship" which King John said happened during the time of King Henry I. Gilbert and his son John faced counter claims from two other men, Robert de Venoiz, and William Hastings.[9] And on this basis many authors have speculated that the three families shared a common ancestry. Robert de Venoiz in particular was apparently heir (Keats-Rohan and Round say son, but CP says more likely grandson) to a Norman named Geoffrey who was referred to as "Geoffrey Marshall" (although in his time this would probably not have been considered a name, just a description).[10] Various scenarios have been presented as fact, such as Gilbert being a son of Robert, or of Geoffrey, or that Gilbert married a lady of their family. (And similarly, the Hastings family have sometimes been linked in speculative pedigrees.) But in fact the record of King John does not strongly imply that before the time of Henry I there was one single "chief" marshal. It could well have been a decision made at that time. There were many hereditary "marshalls" in England and Normandy, as discussed by Round in his book on the subject. (The use of a the job as a surname also probably did not start until King Stephen's time.[11])
  • Gilbert Gibard of 1086. A very simple proposal found in the Complete Peerage is that Gilbert's father was also possibly named Gilbert. (Of course this only moves the problem one generation. We still do not know this Gilbert's father.) The reasoning is that the Gilbert of the Domesday book made around 1086 was many decades before the reign of Henry I, when Gilbert the father of John was still alive.[8] But although the generations are long, it seems possible.[12]

The Marshalcy

As an hereditary marshal of the King, Gilbert was a French speaking Norman (although some Normans married locally and could speak some English) and the old French title Le Mareschal (Latin Marescallus or Marescalcus) which has evolved into modern English "Marshal" was a term going back to Frankish times, originally referring to a function of "horse servant", which is what the word meant in the old language of the Franks. But by his lifetime, this job, like many other household positions, had evolved. According to a treatise of 1136 made for King Stephen, the Master Marshall ("John", Gilbert's son) had duties which "involved the keeping of certain royal records" and the management of "four other lesser marshals, both clerks and knights, assistants called sergeants, the knight ushers and common ushers of the royal hall, the usher of the king's chamber, the watchmen of court, the tent-keeper and the keeper of the king's hearth".[13]

In Gilbert's family, the evidence is relatively clear that the function became a surname, not in Gilbert's lifetime probably, but during the lifetime of his son John. Crouch (p.226) mentions that while surnames from hereditary offices were not an uncommon innovation in the 12th century, this family is a "rather early" example of a case where not only the heir of the Marshall, but several of John's sons, all used the office as a second name. Richard Brooks suggests that John was the first to use the word as a name, because he is specifically referred to as someone "named" the Marshall, and this was during a period when he had split with King Stephen and could not have been functioning as the King's Marshall.[11]

Gilbert's grandson, Sir William Marshal, knighted and named 1st Earl of Pembroke, made the office very important during the last decades of the 12th Century and first decades of the 13th. He served under four kings: Henry II, Richard "Lionheart," John "Lackland" and Henry III. As the regent for Henry III, Sir William Marshal became a powerful European statesman, raising his office still further beyond its humble origins. In William's time the Chief Marshal, who was an Earl for other reasons, was sometimes referred to as "Earl Marshal". This eventually became a recognized title. It is still the seventh of the eight "great officers of state" of the British monarchy, just below the Lord High Constable and above the Lord High Admiral. Since the 13th Century the office has been a hereditary position of the Earls (now Dukes) of Norfolk.[14]

Sources

  1. See the post of John Ravilious: Rootsweb, Google.
  2. Round, J. H. (1911), The King's Serjeants & Officers of State with their Coronation Services. p.88
  3. English Historical Review, Feb. 1999: Henry of Blois and the Lordship of Glastonbury (N. E. Stacy). This article is now cited by newer editions of David Crouch's "William Marshall" and has been quoted and discussed online by medieval genealogists such as John Ravilious, Chris Phillips and Douglas Richardson. See especially the thread started by John Ravilious in Jan 2003: Rootsweb, Google.
  4. For example in old editions of Burkes. https://books.google.be/books?id=uo9AAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA207
  5. See the second SGM thread in Jan 2003, for example the post of Christopher Nash: Google: "on the evidence of William Marshall's making Longueville his first across-the-Channel choice when they're giving out prizes on Richard's accession is suggestive." But he also admits that William's wife's family had a claim, and indeed William and his wife would have been cousins this way.
  6. See Cartulary online here. But the editors believe this is a 12th century document.
  7. So Keats-Rohan equated this Robert with the one in Shearston, with the same overlord as the Robert in Cheddar.
  8. 8.0 8.1 See the post of Chris Phillips: Rootsweb, Google: "One odd point is the chronology - Stacy and Keats-Rohan seem to have no problem with Gilbert being a Domesday tenant, whereas CP suggests he may be the son _or grandson_ of another one".
  9. Robert de Venoiz will be discussed further below and has no Wikitree article yet. William de Hastings is normally guessed to be Hastings-626, because his family did later have a serjeantry in the royal household.
  10. "Robert de Venoiz" is his name in Keats-Rohan's Domesday descendants (p.761). His predecessor, probably father, Geoffrey was from Venoix, from which the English family derived its surname. This family was marshall of the king, not specifically for Venoix. Round claimed that Henry II mentioned a marshal of Venoix as late as 1165/6 but CP shows this to be in error. See Round, J. H. (1911), "The King's Serjeants & Officers of State with their Coronation Services", p.90 and (1899) "Calendar of documents preserved in France", p.157.
  11. 11.0 11.1 Richard Brooks, The Knight who saved England.
  12. Ravilious on the generation length: Rootsweb, Google: "It seems perhaps the generations are stretched somewhat; surely those generations following William the Marshal himself are extended beyond the typical, given his fathering children by Isabel de Clare between say 1190 (when aged about 44) and 1206 or later, when he was aged 60 or possibly more. If Gilbert Giffard of Domesday was born say 1060/1065, and his (conjectured) great-grandson John le Marshal (d. 1235) was born say 1065/1075, we have a range of between 105 and 115 years, yielding average generations of between 35 and 38 years - more than 'the average' of 28, but not abnormally so.".
  13. David Crouch, "William Marshall" 2nd ed. 2002, Appendix 2.
  14. Earl_Marshal on Wikipedia

Also see

  • SRoyal and Noble Genealogical Data, database online, Brian Tompsett, Copyright 1994-2001, Version March 25, 2001
  • Royal and Noble Genealogical Data, Department of Computer Science, University of Hull, (Hull, United Kingdom, HU6 7RX), NS073013
  • Richardson, Douglas, and Kimball G. Everingham. 2013. Royal ancestry: a study in colonial and medieval families. Salt Lake City, UT.: Douglas Richardson. Vol IV, page 33
  • Mr. Marlyn Lewis, Our Royal, Titled, Noble, and Commoner Ancestors & Cousins, database online, Portland, Oregon.
  • Medieval Lands, database online, author Charles Cawley, (Foundation for Medieval Genealogy, 2006-2013), England, earls created 1138-1143, Chapter 10, Pembroke: B. Earls of Pembroke 1189-1245 (MARSHAL), Gilbert "the Marshal"
  • Dictionary of Medieval Knighthood and Chivalry, Bradford B. Broughton, (Westport, Connecticut, Greenwood Press, Inc., 1986).




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Comments: 19

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Another excellent source: Asbridge, Thomas. The Greatest Knight, The Remarkable Life of William Marshal, the Power Behind Five English Thrones. The books relies on manuscripts recovered by French scholar Paul Meyer the 1860s, The History of William Marshal, written by a scribe resident with Marshal's family. HarperCollins Books. 2014. ISBN 978-0-06-226205-9. 444 pages including 40 pages on references, index, maps and pedigrees.

Thank you for working in Wikitree.

posted by Clare Bromley III
MARSHAL FAMILY OF SOMERSET, HEIRS OF RYE FAMILY

No family living during the medieval times is as well documented as the Marshal family the patriarch of which was Gilbert, the Marshall of the king's household during the reign of Henry I. John II Marshal was the eldest son of John Marshall and his second wife, Sibyl the sister of Patrick earl of Salisbury, and brother of the William, earl of Pembroke, who became heir of his father's lands and responsibilities after the death of his two elder brothers. John II died in 1294, leaving a natural son John III by his mistress Alice, who was raised in the household of his uncle William Marshall, earl of Pembroke, the latter was to inherit the office of marshal of England, as well as the lands that were held by John II because of his son’s illegitimacy, though John was to be granted the office of marshal of Ireland by king John.

posted by [Living O'Brien]
What is the Tancarville relationship to this family? John is described as cousin to William of Tancarville, hereditary Chamberlain of Normandy. Grandson William was sent to Tancarville for his training, which implies a significant relationship to John Fitz Gilbert.

“William I de Tancarville son of Raoul, chief chamberlain of Normandy and Angleterre. It seems certain that he was the chamberlain of Duke Robert Curthose, and his brother Henry Beauclerc, after his victory at the Battle of Tinchebray (1106). He was a close adviser to King Henry I of England.”

posted by Colin Bluett
The Venoiz footnote is written with an eye to moving much of it if ever there is are profiles for this family.
posted by Andrew Lancaster
Andrew - all changes completed...
Update on proposed changes, some of which need a trusted or manager intervention. 1. Remove all wives. 2. Remove all surnames except Giffard. 3. Remove picture. 4. Complete merges (which will also give Gilbert his other son back). See G2G discussion.
posted by Andrew Lancaster
I definitely think the last name at birth should be changed to Giffard. Fitz Geoffrey seems to just come from a gedcom where he was being called a son of a Geoffrey. Wikitree also has other Gilberts with different fathers and "fitz" names, and merging them all will not be possible if we keep all these speculative names.
posted by Andrew Lancaster
I've detached the parents & added a note in the bio.
Le Mareschal-4 and FitzGeoffrey-70 appear to represent the same person because: Clearly meant to be the same person. Better to rejoin into the main tree and improve that one than to leave this profile unconnected to the rest of humanity?
posted by Andrew Lancaster
FitzGeoffrey-70 and The Marshall Fitzrobert-1 appear to represent the same person because: Clearly intended to be the same person, though pruning is needed, as discussed on G2G
posted by Andrew Lancaster
Where does the picture come from? It looks like a man with a 17th century style of beard and hair. EDIT: I see it probably comes from Geni.
posted by Andrew Lancaster
Marriage should also be looked at. Apparently we are saying Gilbert married his sister. According to me there is no source for this? On the other article for Gilbert she is given another first name (Marguerite), but at least in that case Gilbert has different parents than his wife. I think there are no records for any of these relationships. Geoffrey de Venoix's son and heir was named Robert de Venoix and I don't think we know many other exact relationships for him?
posted by Andrew Lancaster

G  >  Giffard  >  Gilbert Giffard

Categories: Winterbourne Monkton, Wiltshire | Domesday Book