Charles Kayser
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Charles Sebastian Kayser (1726 - 1778)

Charles Sebastian "Karl" Kayser aka Keyser, Kiser
Born in Möckmühl, Heilbronn, Heiliges Römisches Reichmap
Ancestors ancestors
[sibling(s) unknown]
Husband of — married [date unknown] [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Died at age 52 in Hawksbill Creek, Shenandoah Co, Virginiamap
Profile last modified | Created 14 Jun 2015
This page has been accessed 4,867 times.
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Charles Kayser was a Palatine Migrant.
Join: Palatine Migration Project
Discuss: palatine_migration

This profile is the product of a careful and lengthy review of all available sources.
The date of birth for this person and the identity of his wife have both been disputed by members of the WikiTree community.
In particular, there is a long-standing and widely held tradition among many Kayser descendants that identifies his wife as Elizabeth Grossgloss (abt.1730-1773). Unfortunately there have been no reliable sources presented to support this tradition.
There are claims that two grandsons both stated that their grandmother was Elizabeth Grossgloss, but no evidence for their claim is provided. There is also a website for "First Settlers of Shenadoah Valley" that specifically names his wife as Elizabeth Grossgloss but this is a 20th century document and has no source beyond the family tradition.
This profile remains a work in progress and any additional sources are welcome.

Contents

Biography

Carl Sebastian Keyser was the son of Andreas Kayser (d. bef. 1755) and his wife Anna Catharina Schumacher (1697-1755). His father was a butcher in the the village of Möckmühl in the German Duchy of Württemberg. Karl's birth was registered in the parish church of the village on January 16, 1726/27.[1] [2] As a young man he joined the increasing waves of German Protestants who left in the wake of religious and dynastic wars and emigrated to British North America. On September 19, 1749 Carl arrived in Philadelphia on the ship "Patience." [3] Carl signed his own name on the passenger list. [4] He soon moved west to the German settlements in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, where he entered the service of Johan Jacob Eichholtz (1712-1760), an innkeeper and butcher. During this time Carl anglicized his name to Charles Keyser.

In Lancaster County Charles met and courted the woman who would be his wife. Unfortunately, there is an unsettled controversy over the identity of this woman. Family traditions, both dating to at least the 1870s, name two candidates: Mary Elizabeth Shelly daughter of Christian and Magdalena Shelly, who had immigrated from Germany in the early 1730s; and Elizabeth Grossgloss (or Grossclose), also of German birth. In any case, Charles married around 1751 and is known to have sired ten children: Charles Jr. (b. 1752), John (b. ca. 1754), Anna (b. ca. 1756), Joseph (b. ca. 1756), Andrew (b. 1758), Mary (b. 1760), Elizabeth (b. ca. 1762), Esther (b. ca. 1764), Catherine and David. [NOTE: the dates of birth of many of the children are approximate.]

In the late 1750s Charles moved his growing family south into the wilds of Virginia's fertile Shenandoah River Valley. There he purchased a 108-acre farm along the river near present-day Luray in Page County. He died here in the Spring of 1778 and is buried in the Keyser Family Cemetery in Page County, Virginia. He did not leave a will but there is an inventory filed intestate which lists ten children and indicates that the estate was divided between them equally on 28 August 1778 in Shenandoah county, Virginia.

The following are believed to be his children:

  1. Charles, Jr born 1752
  2. Kate born 1753
  3. John born 1754
  4. Anna born 1756
  5. Joseph born 1756
  6. Andrew born 1758
  7. Mary born 1760
  8. Elizabeth born 1762
  9. David born c. 1764
  10. Esther born 1764
  11. Philip born bef. 1768

Residence

The Charles Keyser home was built about 1765. It was a style of house known in the Shenandoah Valley as a Flürkuchenhaus or hall-kitchen house. It was built over a large arched cellar which served as a fort to protect the family. A description of the Charles and Andrew Keyser homes can be found in Chappell, Edward A. “Acculturation in the Shenandoah Valley: Rhenish Houses of the Massanutten Settlement.” Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society 124, no. 1 (1980): p.73-76. http://www.jstor.org/stable/986659.

"All these old homesteads or forts have fortified cellars and are built in much the same manner, constructed of stone with arched ceilings. Some have an outer cellar also strongly constructed through which one must pass before entering the vault. Several of them have running water. These old homes are all built on the Massanutten patent and a number of them are still occupied as dwellings. They were all substantially built and together form the most interesting group of old homes in Northern Virginia, and in fact, in all Virginia. The homes were built, probably from 1750 to 1790." [5]

Items of Interest

Research Notes

Until fairly recently, it was generally thought that Charles was born in 1702, and there are some who still think so. A discussion of the conflicting accounts regarding Charles up to the then-present date was written by Paul Buchanan, a 4th-great grandson of Charles, and published in the The Virginia Genealogist in 1987.[6] He recites the facts as presented in several different family histories dating from 1876 to 1982, and they are in general agreement that Charles was a butcher, born in Württemberg in 1702. But no primary sources for these facts are named, and it is unlikely that these accounts are independent of one another.

Supporters of the 1702 birth date also point to Charles’ grave marker as evidence. However, his grave was opened in 1876,[7] and it appears that the current grave marker likely dates to this time or later when, as noted above, it was thought that he was born in 1702.

On the strength of the church records showing Charles’ full name to be Carl Sebastian Kayser and the discovery of the German birth record of a son with that name to a butcher in Württemberg, it seems likely (although not proven) that the 1702 date was an error by an early researcher that was propagated through subsequent retellings.

Buchanan also considered the uncertainties regarding Charles' wife (or wives?).[6] His conclusion that Charles was married to Mary Shelly is based principally on the evidence of a 1761 deed in which they were identified as husband and wife,[8] but is also consistent with his readings of an account by Isaac Dovel compiled in 1876,[9] an 1892 letter by Adam Strickler,[10] and an account compiled by Ralph T. Kiser.[11]

Buchanan notes that a later account by Dovel names Elizabeth Groseclose as Charles' wife[9], as does a 1982 account by the Kiser Family Historical Committee.[12] He concludes that the best hypothesis is that Charles married Elizabeth in Germany, and that she died before 1750.

Given the contemporary documented evidence that Charles had married Mary Shelley, if he had also married Elizabeth Groseclose as so many believe it would have been either before his marriage to Mary Shelley, as suggested by Buchanan, or afterward. If Elizabeth is buried next to Charles, the latter alternative seems much more likely. Although Buchanan does not mention the possibility, he does identify an Elizabeth Groseclose who could have been Charles' second wife. He cites the marriage of John Groseclose and Elizabeth Riddling on 8 Oct 1755 in Lancaster County.[13] If Mary predeceased Charles and Elizabeth's husband predeceased her, then Charles and Elizabeth may have married thereafter.

An extensive history of the Groseclose family provides support for the idea that John Groseclose may have died soon after his marriage. The auther indicates that all the Grosecloses in America descended from one man, Peter Groseclose (or Grosscloss), born in Miesau, Rheinland-Pfalz, Bayern in 1730, who came to America probably in 1750.[14] The author of the Groseclose family history discounted family lore that three Groseclose brothers had come to America together. Having traced the ancestry of all the family to Peter, and having seen no evidence of any other early immigrants of that name, he believed that Peter Groseclose had come to America alone. The author apparently was unaware of the marriage record of John Groseclose and Elizabeth Ridding, which indicates that at least one other Groseclose of the same generation as Peter was in America in the 1750's. In spite of this oversight by the author, it appears that John Groseclose left little, if any, evidence of his existence other than the marriage record, making it plausible to believe he died soon afterwards.

The Groseclose family history also makes clear that Groseclose was an unusual name in America, and that Peter had no known sisters named Elizabeth. As a consequence, it's likely that John Groseclose's wife (and supposed widow), Elizabeth Groseclose, was the only woman with that name in colonial America at the time.

Mary (Shelley) Keyser died sometime after executing the 1761 deed, but the date of her death is otherwise unknown. Given the evidence and belief that Charles married Elizabeth Groseclose, it seems likely that Mary predeceased Charles and that Charles subsequently married John Grosecloses's widow, Elizabeth. Had this happened early enough, some of Charles' later children may have born of Elizabeth rather than Mary, which might explain some of the statements later made by Charles' descendants. This sequence of events would also explain the otherwise conflicting accounts provided by Isaac Dovel; he may have seen evidence of both marriages.

As a side note, the issue regarding Charles' wife (or wives) was further confused by at least one author that mistook certain records pertaining to Charles as referring to another man with that name of Dutch descent. Charles S. Keyser has written that Charles Keyser, son of Johannes Keyser and Barbara Funk (who married about 1744), married a Miss Shelly, daughter of Dr. Shelly of Philadelphia, and moved from Germantown to Page County, Virginia, prior to the Revolution.[15] However, it’s well established that the Charles Keyser who moved to the Shenandoah Valley had children in the 1750’s, with the oldest having been born about 1752; this would have been impossible for a man whose parents married around 1744. It is also not credible that the 1761 deed that supports Charles' marriage to Mary Shelley refers to the Dutch Charles Keyser, who would have been at most still in his teens at that time.

A much more complete discussion of Charles' history and the debates surrounding it can be found at the Kayser-Counts Family History web site.[16]

More Research Notes

PAGE: 66. THE MENNONITE FAMILY HISTORY, VOLUME 4, NUMBER 2, DATED APRIL 1985, ARTICLE TITLED: THE CONSPIRACY ON SHELLY'S ISLAND, BY E. ELAYNE ALEXANDER, PAGES 64-68.

MARY SHELLY, CA 1730-1771, MARRIED CHARLES KEYSER, SHE DIED IN SHENANDOAH CO., VIRGINIA. THE FOLLOWING WERE THE CHILDREN OF THE MARRIAGE:

1.) CHARLES KEYSER, BORN CA 1752, DIED IN SHENANDOAH CO., VIRGINIA.
2.) JOHN KEYSER, BORN CA 1754, MARRIED AUGUST 30, 1791 TO CATHARINE RHINEHART.
3.) ANNA KEYSER, CA 1756-1833, MARRIED AUGUST 22, 1785 TO PHILLIP KOONTZ.
4.) ANDREW KEYSER, BORN DECEMBER 16, 1758, DIED NOVEMBER 23, 1833, MARRIED TO FIRST WIFE ON NOVEMBER 24, 1784 WHOM WAS SARAH RHINEHART, MARRIED A SECOND TIME ON OCTOBER 8, 1820 TO ELIZABETH STRICKLER, HE DIED IN SHENANDOAH CO., VIRGINIA.
5.) MARY KEYSER, BORN AUGUST 5, 1760, DIED AUGUST 10, 1824, WAS MARRIED FEBRUARY 1, 1782 IN VIRGINIA TO LUKE KELLY, SHE DIED IN LAWRENCE CO., OHIO.
6.) ELIZABETH KEYSER, CA 1762, DIED AUGUST 10, 1832, MARRIED JANUARY 10, 1784 TO HENRY HURST, DIED IN BREATHITT CO., KENTUCKY.
7.) ESTHER KEYSER, DIED OCTOBER 4, 1846, MARRIED MAY 9, 1797 TO GEORGE DATIN AUSTIN, DIED IN LAWRENCE CO., OHIO.
8.) CATHARINE " KATE " KEYSER, UNMARRIED.
9.) JOSEPH KEYSER, DIED CA 1816, MARRIED SUSANNA STACY, HE DIED IN RUSSEL CO., VIRGINIA. THIS INFORMATION WAS OBTAINED FROM HISTORY OF PAGE COUNTY, VIRGINIA. KEYSER OWNED BIBLE OWNED BY LOUISE SPEARMAN. -----

First Generation ------------------------- 1. CHARLES1 KEYSER (#1) was born in Wurttemberg, Germany 1702. near Stuttgart Charles died 1778 in Shenandoah Co, Va, at 76 years of age. His body was interred 1778 in Shenandoah Co, Va. on his farm, now (1997) Lynn Strickler's, Route 648, Luray, VA He married ELIZABETH GROSSGLOSS in Wurttemberg, Germany. (Elizabeth Grossgloss is #2.) Elizabeth was born in Germany. Charles arrived on Sunday, 19 Sep 1749, aboard the ship PATIENCE in the Port of Philadelphia, Pa. He took the Oath of Allegiance to Pennsylvania on the same day.[3]

He bought property in Frederick Co, Va, 6 Apr 1765. By deed of 6 Apr 1765, recorded in Frederick County, Va., Deed Book No. 10, page 248, Lewis Rhinehart and Mathias Rhinehart of Frederick County, Va., conveyed unto Charles Keyser, of the same place, a parcel of land on the South Fork of the Shenandoah, being the lower end of two tracts of land granted to Mathias Rhinehart by deed of 8 Feb 1764, from the Proprietor's Office of the Northern neck of Virginia. (Mead Relations by A. M. Pritchard, 1933) Charles's will was probated in Shenandoah Co, Va, Will Book A-179, 28 Aug 1778. inventory (509 lbs 15 shillings) 10 children, 50 lbs 19 sh 6 pence each

In Mead Relations by Prichard, published in 1933, he states on page 178: Isaac C. Dovel, son of No. 11, a great grandson of Charles Keyser, compiled some records of the family in 1876 from which the following is copied: "Charles Keyser, father of Andrew Keyser, Sr., and John Keyser, was born in Germany in the year 1702, came to America while under the British Government. He was a butcher by trade; had no relations in this country; married a lady in Philadelphia by the name of Shelly. He died in 1774 at the age of 72 years.

On the 9th of October 1876, the grave was opened by Peter and Henry Keyser, sons of Andrew Keyser, Jr., in the presence of Charles Keyser, one of the grandsons, and I. C. Dovel, Capt. Joseph Keyser, son of Noah Keyser, Joseph W. Keyser, son of Peter Keyser, and Uphemia Richardson, daughter of Andrew Keyser, Jr. The skull, teeth and hair were found to be in a wonderful state of preservation after having been buried 102 years." (Note: The paragraph above makes reference to Thomas and Eli Kiser of Clark County, Ohio. These would be the grandchildren of Charles Keyser, Jr. whose surviving children and his Widow later moved to Ohio. It is not known at this time to which of Charles, Jr. s sons these children belong.) "Peter J. Keyser, who is now (1932) probably the oldest surviving member of the family, recollects when the grave was opened, as above related, and said that it was done purely through curiosity."

"The following also is copied from the notes of Isaac C. Dovell: "The grandfather of Joseph and David Kiser, and great grandfather of Thomas and Eli Kiser of Clark County, Ohio, was named Charles Kaiser. He was a native of Wurtemburg, near Stuttgart, Germany. His wife' name was Elizabeth Grossgloss, also a native of Germany. He was a soldier in Braddock's unfortunate campaign in 1755, but returned unharmed."

Isaac Dovel makes reference (above) to two wives. Either he made a mistake, or he was quoting from the 1889 Kiser book that has been in dispute by Kiser genealogists for years and years. So far we have not been able to find any documentation to substantiate a second marriage, and seem to have enough proof the marriage of Charles Keyser and Miss Shelly is another line entirely. We have received e-mail from

Edward Barnes, (5 Jul 1998), a descendant of the Dutch Keyser / Kiser line, says: "I do have a reference to Charles Keyser who married a Miss Shelly. My information is that she was the daughter of a Dr. Shelly of Philadelphia. "The information says that after they married, they moved to Page County, Virginia. I don't have specific dates, except that I show that Charles was the son of Johannes Keyser (who was born July 25, 1721 in German-town) and Barbara (Funk) Keyser. I don t have a birth or marriage date for Charles."

"HOWEVER -- although the family line from Johannes (showing Charles and __ Shelly) is documented in the 1889 Keyser Family History, more recent research by William Hires of Penn Valley, PA, casts considerable doubt on the whole line beginning with Johannes children. As I recall, there were two different lines that some folks claim descended from Johannes. He says that the 1889 history is incorrect based on data that he has found in Pennsylvania. He was, by the way, the official genealogist for the most recent Keyser Family Reunion (300th anniversary) in Philadelphia in 1988." SO, IN SUMMATION, we do seem to have enough information to determine that the Charles Keyser who married a Miss Shelly is NOT in our line. That Charles father, Johannes, was born 1721. Our Charles was born in 1702.

Several books have been written on "Kisers",

  • "HURSTS IN SHENANDOAH COUNTY VIRGINIA", author Mrs. June Hurst Childers,
  • "FORERUNNERS" by STRICKLER;
  • "MEAD RELATIONS" by A. M. PRICHARD, published by The McClure Co., Printers, Staunton, Virginia in 1933;
  • KISER FAMILY DESCENDANTS by CHARLES S. KISER.
  • E. J. SUTHERLAND, Judge "SOME DESCENDANTS OF JOHN COUNTS OF GLADE HOLLOW (Southwest Virginia) 1722-1977"

"Charles Keyser purchased a tract, 198 acres, from Lewis and Mathias Rinehart of Frederick County, Virginia, near the mouth of Hawksbill in Frederick County, VA by deed dated 6 Apr 1765 where he lived until his death (Charles Keyser, Jr., Shenandoah County Deed Book 1-265 where they conveyed unto Andrew Keyser a parcel of 57 acres of land, etc.). On 28 May 1778, the Shenandoah County Court appointed Bryant Breeding, Martin Comer, Matthew Mattocks, and Peter Ruffner to appraise the estate of 'Charles Kizer, Dec'd,' and Charles Kizer was granted administration of this estate, and posted a bond of 1,000 pounds (Kizer and Comer signed the bond in German) (Shenandoah County Will Book A-179). On 28 August 1778, Martin Comer, Matthew Mattocks and Peter Ruffner returned the appraisement to the court, large inventory, his estate being valued at 509 pounds 15 shilling 0 pence. Attached to this appraisement is the statement: 'There is Ten Children, 50 pounds 19 shillings 6 pence Each share.' [17]


Extract from a letter dated 5 February 1988 from Vivian Bales: "Long ago in the Pennsylvania archives I found the Keysers whom I descend from, in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania (which also you descend from). I read the deposition ANDREW made about an Indian who came to their house and asked for food, etc., and about JOSEPH being accused of stealing a sheep. The Keyser - Kiser's were German Deutsche. My grandmother told me this. They clung to their language right down to my grandmother."

Kercheval (1833) relates an incident in which "Major Andrew Keyser also informed the author that an Indian once called at his father's in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, appeared to be much agitated, and asked for something to eat. After refreshing himself he was asked what disturbed him. He replied, 'The Southern Indians have killed my whole nation.'"[18] (per A.M. Pritchard in his Mead Relations "This indicates clearly that Charles Keyser lived in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, before he settled in what is now Page County, Virginia. )

Charles had an old German Bible, which went to his son Charles upon his death. When his son, Charles, Jr. died his sons took the bible with them when they moved to Ohio.[17] Unfortunately, no trace of the Bible has been found.

In Esther Kiser's Sandy Ridge Kiser-Powers Kin, she states: "It is believed that Charles had two brothers who also came to America. Jacob Keyser arrived in Philadelphia on 16 September 1751 aboard the Edinburgh from Rotterdam, Holland. Andreas Keyser arrived in Philadelphia on 29 September 1753 aboard the British ship Brothers."[19]

Sources

  1. Mark Kiser. Birth Record of Carl Sebastian Keyser from a report by Friedrich R. Wollmershäuser, the professional German genealogist hired by Mark Kiser in 2002. Ancestry Image
  2. Emails and Notes of Mark Kiser re: Hiring and findings of Herr Wollmershäuser http://pennsylvaniasettlers.com/getperson.php?personID=I24786&tree=1
  3. 3.0 3.1 Strassburger, R. Beaver., Hinke, W. John. (1934). Pennsylvania German pioneers: a publication of the original lists of arrivals in the port of Philadelphia from 1727 to 1808. Edited by William John Hinke. Pennsylvania German Society. Norristown, Pa.[Katrina p. 408]
  4. Strassburger, Ralph Beaver, LL.D., Pennsylvania German Pioneers, A Publication of the Original Lists of Arrivals In the Port of Philadelphia from 1727 to 1808, edited by William John Hinke, Ph.D., D.D., Pennsylvania German Society, Norristown, PA, 1934. Volume 2 p. 457.
  5. Harry M. Stickler. A Short History of Page County, Virginia page 61
  6. 6.0 6.1 The Virginia Genealogist, Washington, DC: J. F. Dorman, 1957 - 2006, (Online database, AmericanAncestors.org, New England Historic Genealogical Society, 2009.); citing Paul C. Buchanan, "The First Keyser Family of Page County, Virginia," The Virginia Geneaologist, 31:27-34 ([1] : 23 Jun 2022).
  7. Kayser-Counts Family History, "Carl Kayser"; citing Vivian Black, "Charles Keyser Home," Works Progress Administration of Virgina Historical Inventory, #224, 21 Aug 1936 ([2] : 27 Jun 2022).
  8. Lancaster Co., Pa., Deed Book FF, p. 166 ([3] :23 Jun 2022)
  9. 9.0 9.1 cited by Buchanan as: Armistead M. Prichard, Meade Relations (Meade, Lovell, Brown, Keyser, Kelly, Trumbo, Austin, Taber, Prichard) Staunton, Va., 1933), p. 181.
  10. cited by Buchanan as: Prichard, op. cit., pp. 177 et seq.
  11. cited by Buchanan as: Ralph T. Kiser, The Kiser (Keyser) Family in America: 1744-1980, (Ashland, Ala., 1980), pp. 8-9.
  12. cited by Buchanan as: Joyce Logan, Kaiser-Kiser-Keyser (n.p., 1982), mimeographed paper prepared by Kiser Family Historical Committee.
  13. cited by Buchanan as: Lancaster Co., Pa., Marriage Register, pt. 2, 1755-1766, no pagination.
  14. B. Clark Groseclose, Grosecloses and Descendants in America (Brentwood, Calif.: published by the author, 1999), pp. 3-4, 28. The auther noted that he had discovered one Groseclose family in Ohio that traced their ancestry to a more recent immigrant.
  15. Charles S. Keyser, The Keyser family : descendants of Dirck Keyser of Amsterdam, (Philadelphia : Wm. F. Fell & Co, 1889) p. 153 ([4] : 27 Jun 2022).
  16. Kayser-Counts Family History, "Carl Kayser," created September 1, 2018, last Updated June 13, 2022 ([5] : 27 Jun 2022).
  17. 17.0 17.1 Judge E. J. Sutherland. Some Descendants of John Counts of Glade Hollow (Southwest Virginia) 1722-1977
  18. Samuel Kercheval. "History of the Valley of Virginia". Winchester : S.H. Davis. 1833 page 50
  19. http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kycarter/charts/kiser.htm

See also:

  • Find a Grave, database and images (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/52597632/charles-sebastian-keyser : accessed 22 June 2022), memorial page for Charles Sebastian “Carl” Keyser (16 Jan 1726–1778), Find a Grave Memorial ID 52597632, citing Keyser Cemetery Dovel Hollow, Stanley, Page County, Virginia, USA ; Maintained by John W. Coffey (contributor 47365586) .
  • Pennsylvania, Compiled Census and Census Substitutes Index, 1772-1890 Ancestry.com
  • U.S. and Canada, Passenger and Immigration Lists Index, 1500s-1900s Ancestry.com
  • Click here for an early family tree for this Charles Keyser who is shown as Karl Kiser. It was posted on Rootsweb around 1996
  • The Keyser family : descendants of Dirck Keyser of Amsterdam, by Charles Shearer Keyser, William F. Fell & Company, Publishers, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 1889, page 153.

Acknowledgments

  • Thank you to Richard Ludwig for creating WikiTree profile Keyser-214 through the import of Richard Ludwig's Family.ged on Jan 18, 2013.
  • Thank you to Katharine Mounger for creating WikiTree profile Keyser-154 through the import of Mounger and Davis Ancestry.ged on Jun 9, 2015.




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Comments: 89

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I think that there is enough secondary evidence in the various accounts (and the grave marker) to support the inclusion of Elizabeth Groseclose (or Grossgloss) as the second wife of Charles Kayser. Her profile might need some work first, specifically her LNAB as Ridding and first marriage to John Groseclose. I've seen no evidence of her birth in Germany; that seems to be an assumption to account for not being able to find anyone by that name in America.
posted by Mike Lints
Mike, thanks for this comment. There has been much controversy over the inclusion of Elizabeth Grossclose. Take a look at the lengthy discussion and conclusions on G2G here: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/756738/need-information-on-charles-keyser

Long, I'll admit, but essential to understanding the complexities of the ultimate decision to exclude Elizabeth as wife of this Charles Keyser.

posted by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
edited by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
Thanks, Kie. I'm familiar with the discussions that have taken place here since I first stated contributing to the profile almost two years ago, but hadn't seen the G2G thread.

I was in agreement with the decision to exclude Elizabeth as Charles' wife at the time it was made, but it did leave some people very upset, as it seemingly discounts (or ignores, they argue) the evidence in her favor.

On a recent vacation to the Gulf coast, I stopped by the Tennessee State Library in Nashville and finally got a look at the book on the Groseclose family history. It didn't provide the clarity that I had hoped it would regarding John Groseclose (Elizabeth's first husband), but the fact that such a carefully researched work doubted John's existence is itself evidence that John may have died not long after his marriage to Elizabeth (of which there is a record).

As I tried to make clear in my recent edits to the Research Notes, it's at least plausible that Charles Keyser married the widow Elizabeth Groseclose after his first wife Mary Shelley died. Obviously, there's no proof now known, but it seems to be the only set of circumstances that is consistent with all the evidence, including the grave markers and written accounts by people who may have seen proof (such as a family bible) that still existed in the 19th century. I understand why others might not agree, but that seems to me sufficient reason to add Elizabeth as the second wife of Charles Keyser.

posted by Mike Lints
Keyser-618 and Kayser-154 appear to represent the same person because: Father of John Kayser was Charles Kayser, not John. Please merge into Charles.
posted by Dave Rutherford
Keyser-618 and Kayser-154 do not represent the same person because: Dates of birth are a generation apart
This profile is no longer a collaboration which is WikiTree Honor Code Rule #1. This profile has been hijacked by one member Dave Rutherford who retains the only one who can access it or change the bio. Multiple rejections of merges have been ignored. Multiple sources have been ignored minimized and removed from the bio. Profile Managers who don't agree have been removed. Charles Kiser has a tombstone and is buried next to his wife Elizabeth and she has been removed and no one else can do anything about it. It may as well not even be on WikiTree as it is Dave Rutherford's choice to decide what can be on the bio. Even the children connected cannot be changed or modified. I am not even sure how multiple profiles can be "project protected" when they are not even showing to be in a project and I am a profile manager with a profile that cannot be modified. Please don't rely on this profile for your research.
posted by K Hardcastle
K, I must respectfully disagree. Dave's action followed months of collaborative effort by a number of members whose motivation has been a desire to ensure that this family's genealogy is consistent with evidence found in appropriate sources. These are not people who had preconceived notions about the genealogy or were taking sides in a dispute. Rather, they were looking for evidence. The effort continued for an exceptionally long time because of pleas of members like you who are convinced that this man's wife was Elisabeth Grossgloss (various spellings). Unfortunately, no credible evidence was found to support that relationship, but there is decent sourced evidence for Mary. WikiTree policy calls for genealogy to be based in the best sources, and Dave based his decision on the sources.

The profile has plenty of content related to the identification of Elisabeth as his wife, so if new evidence emerges, there will be a basis for reconsidering....

posted by Ellen Smith
edited by Ellen Smith
K, I am sad that you are dissatisfied with the work on this profile, and I truly hope that the dispute can be settled to the satisfaction of all involved. Jane
posted by Jane (Snell) Copes
Regarding the identity of Elizabeth Groseclose (or Grossgloss):

There is a book by B. Clark Groseclose, "Grosecloses and Descendants in America," (Brentwood, Calif. : The Author, 1999) that may have useful information, especially about John Groseclose, who married Elizabeth Riddling in Lancaster Co. in 1755. It seems that Peter Groseclose (Groseclose-16, although a more complete profile is at https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LHJB-CRR) who immigrated to America in 1750 and also married about 1755 is the progenitor of the family in this country, which may mean that John died without any male heirs, perhaps not long after his marriage.

I would check the book myself, but the nearest library copy is over 500 miles away. The WorldCat listing of copy locations is at: https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/41629769

Is there anyone with a copy near them who can take a look at this?

posted by Mike Lints
I am trying to clean up this profile. There is a huge amount of redundant family tree info. I plan to reduce these to just one decent tree.

Notice in the all capitals section I italicized the sources in an effort to keep track of them and to convert them to inline sources later.

I feel the lengthy details cut and pasted for the article about the house are unnecessary. A link to the article would be sufficient.

Also the long cut and paste regarding the Massanutten Settlement is distracting and can also be handled with a source link and brief description.

Overall, I am trying to extract the sources and at least make this profile information readable.

This is going to take awhile, but is necessary. Advice and suggestions are appreciated

posted by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
As part of this effort, I hope you succeed in identifying the various "sources" cited here. It feels very unsatisfactory when a key source is a bare Ancestry.com URL that points to an Ancestry-member-uploaded image that does not identify its source (thinking here of https://www.ancestry.com/mediaui-viewer/tree/43404184/person/12683626042/media/88bcca5a-442e-4994-b4dc-a3fe46a78ace, which is the source cited for the baptism in Germany in 1726 (I say "1726" rather than 1726/7 because I believe that Germany was using the Gregorian calendar, so dates do not need the qualifiers required for English dates). From the context provided by https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/43404184/person/12683626042/gallery I infer that the page image that includes the baptism record is a page from the report by Friedrich R. Wollmershäuser, the professional genealogist hired by family members in 2002.
posted by Ellen Smith
edited by Ellen Smith
I will make sure to clarify this. I was the one who located the Ancestry file. I wish it could be located elsewhere, but I will add the additional source info as you suggested.
posted by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
edited by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
I imagine that some of the descendants who have contributed to these profiles have access to the Wollmershäuser report and could provide or confirm details about it. I hope they will step up and do so!
posted by Ellen Smith
Yes, I hope so, too. However, with or without more information about the German birth record, I think that the profile should acknowledge and discuss the fairly extensive evidence that supports a birth date of 1702. I'd be happy to take that on if there are no objections.
posted by Mike Lints
Please do, Mike! I have found almost all the the current profile text to be cut and pasted directly from websites and from FamilySearch. It needs summarizing. It is tempting to start from scratch since there is so much conflicting information.
posted by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
Based on the evidence, it seems very likely that the Carl Kayser who arrived at Philadelphia in 1749 is the same Charles Kyser who was married to the former Mary Shelly in Pennsylvania in 1761, and the same Charles Kyser who bought land in Virginia in 1765; and that the three profiles under discussion (Keyser-99, Kayser-154 and Keyser-337) should all be merged. However, that's merely my opinion, and not the point of this comment.

Instead, I question the German origins presented in this profile. My understanding of German naming conventions of the time is that for a person named Carl Sebastian Kayser, "Carl" would have been the saint's name, rarely if ever used; and "Sebastian" the call name by which he would generally be known, including on legal documents. Someone known as Carl Kayser would have instead been named Johann Carl or Friederich Carl or the like at birth. Am I mistaken?

posted by Mike Lints
Absolutely, Mike. I keep looking at this profile and I wondered the same. Could his name actually have been Sebastian Karl?American researchers often make the mistake of placing English naming conventions on German immigrants.

A quick Google search led me to this snippet... here: https://germanculture.com.ua/german_names/german_names_boys_c.htm

"CHARLES is a beautiful male first name with Old German roots. It has a positive meaning: "free man". It came from Karl, familiar to Old English "churl", which means "man, serf". It is a saint's name. Charles and its variants are favoured by the royal persons of many countries."

So, there we have it; Charles/Karl/Carl is a saint's name!!! Who knew??? St. Charles Borromeo is the Catholic saint..

But... Sebastian is also a saint's name, so Sebastian could have been the saint's name and Karl/Charles the call name.

A baptismal record would be nice. I will take a look using Sebastian Charles/Karl.

posted by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
My understanding from reading the profile is that the name Sebastian only appears in connection with Carl or Charles on the birth record unearthed by the German genealogist. Without further information, it seems unlikely that this record belongs to Carl (since the name order is wrong). If that is so, then there's no reason for the name Sebastian to be included in this profile.

I hope that the reasons why this birth record was thought to belong to Carl can be uncovered.

posted by Mike Lints
It does seem unusual for the time. The only explanation could be that the family was originally French or perhaps Swiss and migrated to Germany due to war or religious persecution, particularly if they were Mennonite. I did notice that one of the birth record sponsors is a teacher and a brother is standing in for the sponsor, Sebastian, who is a scribe/clerk.
posted by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
edited by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
Occasionally one sees German people who appear to have used the first of the two names on their baptismal name. I don't think anyone was required to use the second name as the called name. A German professional genealogist might know more about this.
posted by Ellen Smith
Keyser-99 and Kayser-154 do not represent the same person because: Keyser-99 and Keyser-337 could merge but not Kayser-154.
posted by K Hardcastle
Please read Mark Kiser's excellent analysis of the research on Charles Keyser in the PDF attached to this profile. He concludes that Charles did, indeed marry Mary Shelly, he was NOT born in 1702, and Elizabeth Grossgloss is, perhaps, a huge error. The research in Germany concludes Charles was born in 1726.
posted by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
Keyser-99 and Keyser-337 appear to represent the same person because: Even though no one can agree on the spouse these are the same man. I don't agree with merge of Kayser-154
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by K Hardcastle
I agree that Kayser-154 shouldn't be merged with the others.
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Sheila Stahl
I think we must all agree that all three of these profiles are meant to represent the same man who moved to Virginia and died there intestate in 1778. Under WikiTree's rules (one profile per person) this means that these profiles must be merged.

I appreciate that there are differences of opinion on this man's birth date and the identity of his wife and these need to be addressed fully in a Research Notes section on the merged profile which will be placed there to explain the disagreement.

The marriage of Charles and Mary Shelley is well attested. They are mentioned in her father's probate papers and an article on the Shelly's in THE MENNONITE FAMILY HISTORY, VOLUME 4, NUMBER 2, DATED APRIL 1985, ARTICLE TITLED: THE CONSPIRACY ON SHELLY'S ISLAND, BY E. ELAYNE ALEXANDER, PAGES 64-68 also reports that she and Charles moved to Virginia.

There is no equivalent evidence for Elizabeth.

The oft-cited reference to the widow Elizabeth in the WPA record is very clearly for Charles' daughter in law. It mentions her son Joseph and his wife Caty. The Joseph who married Catherine (Caty) was the son of Charles Jr. and his wife Elizabeth Baker.

The placement of the inscriptions in the graveyard are not conclusive. Nowhere is she named as Charles' wife. And the problem with the tombstones is that the bodies were re-interred in 1876 almost a hundred years after the original burial. The stones are not original and just reflect the family's thinking a century later. They are in no way a primary source of anything.

posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Dave Rutherford
No we don't have to agree. There are references to books about Elizabeth Grossgloss as well. Neither books are more "proof" than the other one. As previously state there is no evidence that the man buried in Page county Virginia is also Carl Sebastian Kayser. I have done research on other lines from Germany and there were church records showing groups of families births. They would also note when and where the families came to America. I think it's quite a leap in this instance especially with the spouse controversy.
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by K Hardcastle
As someone who is only following this discussion, it is not valid to say that a gravestone that is 150 years old is less than a book put together in 1985. It seems there is no primary source for the marriages themselves. There is a time proximate secondary source of at least one of the marriages in a probate record. There is a next closest time proximate secondary source which is a grave marker that is 150 years old. There is a time distant secondary or tertiary source which is the 1985 record.

Importantly, having one wife at death does not necessarily mean having one wife throughout life.

Similarly, two or more individuals having the same name as someone else during similar migration periods 300 years ago with closely proximate birth and death dates does not mean the individuals are the same.

It seems there is agreement on Keyser-99 and Keyser-337. From a level of evidence perspective, I agree with @Hardcastle and @Stahl that Kayser-154 should not be merged.

posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Kent Bream
Thank-you Kent. That is my sentiment exactly but was not able to put into words. It was also said without disrespect of everyone's side. I am not sure why this discussion has turned into only 1 side having to prove something. The facts from both sides are already placed on the profiles and enough to warrant keeping both wives. This should be about a merge and not removing the "correct" wife. I also do not agree with Mark Kiser's analysis as proof for merge of Kayser-154. It seems the 1697 marriage date of the Germany couple is the only reason everyone wants the birth date to be 1726 instead of what the tombstone states.
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by K Hardcastle
Please read the PDF file on the profile of Keyser-154. Mark Kiser updated the Kiser/Keyser research in 2003 and makes a well thought out and researched case for Kayser-154, born in 1726, not 1702, spouse of Mary Shelly, son of the butcher, Andreas, servant of the innkeeper and butcher Eicholtz. After reading this 2003 update, I agree that Kayser-154 should merge into Keyser-99. The spouse dispute can be documented in the text.

German church records do not always include birth records arranged by family. The references to families emigrating to America are rare, mentioned only if the family had to pay a tax and receive permission to leave the state or to be released from servitude.

Unfortunately, tombstones are only as good as the person who makes them and the person who submits the information. Dates are misread and family lore twisted like a game of telephone... it certainly happened in my family!

posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
Did you read my comment before once again assuming it is I that has not read the facts you feel are correct? I simply don't agree with Mark Kiser and just because you do does not make it the only correct conclusion.
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by K Hardcastle
Actually, no, I did not see your previous comment. I did not say my conclusion is correct, only that, based on everything I have seen, on all three profiles, I agree with the merge of Kayser-154 as long as the disputed spouse issue is included in the Research notes.
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
No you replied to my comment which stated I read Mark Kiser's research already and then told me to read the research again. You already replied to another comment of mine on the other profile and told me to read it before. Telling someone to read something is not just stating your opinion it's saying that person needs to have better facts which is disrepectful. This is why noone wants these profiles to merge because that side acts superior and it leads one to feel that once the profiles are merged there will just be more of the same to remove the spouse and connect to the parents which I don't agree with.
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by K Hardcastle
Oh dear, I apologize. I did not intend to offend you. I truly did not mean to reply twice, particularly after your post about disagreeing with the Kiser document.
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
Tombstones, pdfs, and probate records are only as good as the person who makes them and the person who submits the information. To privilege modern pdfs over century old tombstones is a matter lacking historicity.

In saying this I claim no expertise over the Kaysers. I do claim an understanding of evaluating the level of evidence presented.

A modern pdf is particularly at risk of being misread and twisted like a game of telephone. The game of telephone has more misreadings and misreportings with each passing of the information. In this case the older gravestone has a lower chance of being misinterpreted or misreported because it has gone through fewer passes of information or generations of reinterpretation.

None of this is to discredit the hard work of each person in this discussion and the authors from 1985/2003. We do not, however, have positive or affirmative evidence against the other wife or a distinct Kayser-154. We do have a lack of evidence within Keyser-99 regarding Kayer-154.

We should not confuse this lack of evidence in one person's history as evidence against another person's existence.

posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Kent Bream
I think that I believe the genealogist for the Keyser family reunion, that there are two separate Charles Keysers. I would approve a merge of Keyser-99 and Keyser-337 but not Kayser-154. I believe this last person to be different from the other two, not the same man. If you decide to merge all three, I believe you will be doing a disservice to Wikitree and all of us who are descendants.
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Sheila Stahl
I do not agree that all three represent the same man. I would approve a merge of Keyser-99 and Keyser-337 but not Kayser-154, whom I believe is an entirely different man. If you decide in the face of this opposition, to go ahead and merge all three, you will be doing a disservice to Wikitree and also to those of us who are descendants.
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Sheila Stahl
Unfortunately, few of the sources on this profile are accessible. The First Settlers of the Shenandoah Valley is a pdf file which should probably be upload as an image since no one can access it from the profile. The First Settlers list provides nothing more than names, with no primary sources. Where are the marriage records and other sources that document Elizabeth Grossgloss as the spouse of Charles?
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Kie (Entrikin) Zelms
Keyser-337 and Kayser-154 do not represent the same person because: Keyser-99 and Keyser-337 are the same but not Kayser-154. I do not agree Charles is the same as Carl Sebastion Kayser.
posted by K Hardcastle
After careful research of available sources and extensive review of the same which has taken place over the past several years, the Palatine Migration Project leadership has come to the conclusion that Keyser-99, Keyser-337 and Kayser-154 all represent the same man and should be merged.

No evidence has been found to support the 1702 birth date other than a tombstone erected a century after his death.

There is also no evidence for a wife named Elisabeth Grosscloss. The only source cited for her is an entry for "a partial settlement of Charles Keyser estate, Elizabeth Keyser widow and relict" which comes immediately after the entry for "September 12, 1796, appraisement of Charles Keyser, Junior's estate." It appears that "Elizabeth widow and relict" is Elizabeth Baker widow of Charles Keyser Jr

Unless someone is aware of some other issue that creates an impediment to these merges, the project intends to complete these merges in one week's time.

posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Dave Rutherford
Strangely I have seen no evidence for a Miss Shelly other than a reference in a book. A tombstone with the name Elizabeth appears next to Charles. If that Elizabeth is wife of Charles Jr then there is really no evidence that could relate back to Germany if his birth date cannot even be confirmed to be supported by the tombstone. I don't see how these profiles can be merged not even having confidence in the man's birth date.
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by K Hardcastle
There is a cemetery list for the Keyser Cemetery done some years ago by Mark Kiser. It says 18 known family members buried here. Information on 12 provided by the Ritenours who surveyed this cemetery on 20 Mar 1983 after cutting away blackberry briars for three hours. Elizabeth Grossgloss is named by Mark Kiser, born in Wurttemberg Germany and died in Shenadoah (now Page) County, VA. The official genealogist for the 300th anniversary of the Keyser Family Reunion in 1988 said that the 1889 history is incorrect based on data that he has found in Pennsylvania. He believed there were two distinct lines. I don't think that we can completely disregard Elizabeth Grossgloss and would object to her being removed.
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Sheila Stahl
Why did you eliminate the information from the First Settlers of Shenandoah Valley which names Elizabeth Grossgloss as Charles' wife?
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Sheila Stahl
Keyser-337 and Kayser-154 appear to represent the same person because: After careful research of available sources and extensive review of the same which has taken place over the past several years, the Palatine Migration Project leadership has come to the conclusion that Keyser-99, Keyser-337 and Kayser-154 all represent the same man and should be merged.

No evidence has been found to support the 1702 birth date other than a tombstone erected a century after his death.

There is also no evidence for a wife named Elisabeth Grosscloss. The only source cited for her is an entry for "a partial settlement of Charles Keyser estate, Elizabeth Keyser widow and relict" which comes immediately after the entry for "September 12, 1796, appraisement of Charles Keyser, Junior's estate." It appears that "Elizabeth widow and relict" is Elizabeth Baker widow of Charles Keyser Jr

Unless someone is aware of some other issue that creates an impediment to these merges, the project intends to complete these merges in one week's time.

posted by Dave Rutherford
The conclusion that the last entry dated 1796 referring to Charles Jr's wife being the Elizabeth buried next to Charles Sr is inconsistent with the research done for the WPA and its purpose in conveying history of the Charles Keyser Sr's Home. The home was conveyed to Charles Sr. because the deed is dated 1765 and Charles Jr was born 1752 obviously the home was not originally for the son.

Also it is not disputed that Charles Sr died in 1778 and Charles Jr died in 1796 since there were estate records. So it seems the tombstones are meant to reflect Charles Kiser Sr and his wife since they were placed there at the same time. Not sure that they stones being place there years later is indisputable proof of the dates being incorrect. Lots of stones are replaced years later and noone questions them.

http://kayser-counts.org/charleskeyserhomewpareport.pdf

posted by K Hardcastle
Keyser-99 and Kayser-154 appear to represent the same person because: After careful research of available sources and extensive review of the same which has taken place over the past several years, the Palatine Migration Project leadership has come to the conclusion that Keyser-99, Keyser-337 and Kayser-154 all represent the same man and should be merged.

No evidence has been found to support the 1702 birth date other than a tombstone erected a century after his death.

There is also no evidence for a wife named Elisabeth Grosscloss. The only source cited for her is an entry for "a partial settlement of Charles Keyser estate, Elizabeth Keyser widow and relict" which comes immediately after the entry for "September 12, 1796, appraisement of Charles Keyser, Junior's estate." It appears that "Elizabeth widow and relict" is Elizabeth Baker widow of Charles Keyser Jr

Unless someone is aware of some other issue that creates an impediment to these merges, the project intends to complete these merges in one week's time.

posted by Dave Rutherford
Hint 585: FindAGrave - Multiple profiles link to same grave ID So much different information. Made it an unmerged match for more research. I think one of the FAG links need to be removed.
Keyser-337 and Kayser-154 are not ready to be merged because: Different birth dates, places and different spouses. All these irregularities need to be resolved before these two profiles can be merged. Resources need to be added to prove which one is correct and then submit it again for a suggested merge
posted by Carol (Baker) Murray
Kayser-154 and Keyser-99 are not ready to be merged because: to my thinking there is too much conflicting details, for someone outside the Family Circle to honestly make a judgement
posted on Keyser-99 (merged) by Bryan Simmonds
Keyser-337 and Kayser-154 appear to represent the same person because: relative.
posted by Richard Ludwig
Keyser-337 and Kayser-154 do not represent the same person because: Different birth dates, spouses, counties. Is one the father of the other?
Did you look at my comment and the G2G discussion cited there?
posted by Ellen Smith
My last statement in the G2G said:

After a very light read through the history here and in the profiles -- including the various research notes added since this discussion started, I think I can see a path to resolving the long-standing merge conflict here.

It appears to me that this man is the Carl Sebastian Kayser, son of Andreas Kayser and his wife Anna Catharina Raffnacher, who was baptized or registered in Möckmühl in 1726. (Not 1727 -- Germany was using New Style dates at that time.) He immigrated in 1749 and married Mary Shelly (not Elisabeth Grosscloss -- apparently there is no evidence for her).

If others do not object, I think this gives us a basis for merging profiles Keyser-99 and Keyser-337 into Kayser-154 and discarding the 1702 birthdate and the claim that this man's parents were Johannes Keyser and Barbara Funk. A major effort would still be needed to revise the final profile (remove invalid information, duplication/repetition, etc., put the information in logical order, and provide a "Disputed Origins" or "Research Notes" to document what is being discarded and why), as well as to deal with the lore and claims (such as the Rev. War connection to Braddock) that do not directly affect a merge decision.

posted by Ellen Smith
Keyser-337 and Kayser-154 appear to represent the same person because: See https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/756738/need-information-on-charles-keyser
posted by Ellen Smith
edited by Ellen Smith
Kayser-604 and Keyser-99 appear to represent the same person because: Just reading Jack Keyser's "CARL KEYSER and his family of KEYSER PIONEERS" which provides several compelling sources leads me to believe Kayser-604 and Keyser-99 are the same guy.
posted on Keyser-99 (merged) by Randy Cullers
Kayser-154 and Kayser-604 appear to represent the same person because: Everything matches, other than son Andrew. He will need to be checked out.
posted on Kayser-604 (merged) by Katharine (Mounger) Jones
Kayser-604 is marked as rejected match, without comment, but seems to be a duplicate of this profile.
posted by Barry Smith
Will do. In the morning!

I'm through Esther, married to George Austin. For years I thought his name was "Astin" and was really glad to have had a breakthrough. They moved to Ohio. Their descendant, Col. I.N. Gilruth, was an officer in the Union army but married a Mississippi girl. Their daughter was my grandmother. All the migrations are Interesting.

Kay

Please add Andrew Keyser as a son. He is listed in the list of children in the Bio section of the Profile. Here is what I cut from it: 4.) ANDREW KEYSER, BORN DECEMBER 16, 1758, DIED NOVEMBER 23, 1833, MARRIED TO FIRST WIFE ON NOVEMBER 24, 1784 WHOM WAS SARAH RHINEHART, MARRIED A SECOND TIME ON OCTOBER 8, 1820 TO ELIZABETH STRICKLER, HE DIED IN SHENANDOAH CO., VIRGINIA.

I descend from Andrew and his wife Sarah Rhinehart, and I need to fill in this line.

posted by Nancy (Toney) Upshaw
Problem with the tombstone and Find A Grave is that the body was re-interred in 1876 almost a hundred years after the original burial. The stones are not original and just reflect the family's thinking a century later. They are in no way a primary source of anything.

See the G2G discussion on this, particularly Ellen Smith's answer with comments. https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/756738/need-information-on-charles-keyser?show=758804#c758804

posted on Keyser-99 (merged) by Dave Rutherford
I copied then zoomed in on the tombstone photo from findagrave. What I am seeing on the grave marker is a 0 & 2 for birth year, definitely not a 2 & 6.
posted on Keyser-99 (merged) by Ronald Reed
Findagrave has him born in 1726, but what little you can see of the birth year on the tombstone looks more like it ends in zero than one.
posted on Keyser-99 (merged) by [Living Winter]
Kelly, I can see your point. Skip has said that this Charles Keyser is NOT the son of Johannes Keyser (my profile) and has added a different Charles Keyser as his son: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Keyser-1048

Although Skip states: "Just for the record, the entry in the Keyser book was a mistake. There was no child of Johannes and Barbara Funk Keyser who married a Mary Shelly..." he added the part of the bio that states he was, and the source back into this profile, after it had been removed.

This is causing additional confusion here and in the G2G message that is ongoing.

posted on Keyser-99 (merged) by Janne (Shoults) Gorman
If he was born in Germany, his proper first name wasn't the anglicized name "Charles".
posted by Ellen Smith
Keyser-337 and Keyser-99 do not represent the same person because: Please see comments on G2. Also this was rejected and then immediately re suggested. Any future merge requests will be denied without further discussion or a moderator should be assisting on this profile.
posted on Keyser-99 (merged) by K Hardcastle
Keyser-99 and Keyser-337 appear to represent the same person because: Same person, see G2G discussion entitled Need Information on Charles Keyser
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by [Living Magyar]
I will not approve a merge until the issue of this being two different people is resolved.
posted on Keyser-99 (merged) by Sheila Stahl
Although the children's name varied in spelling to Kiser, Charles' name is consistently seen in records as Keyser.
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by K Hardcastle
Keyser-337 and Keyser-99 do not represent the same person because: The fact that both the profiles have been changed to have the same dates does not account for the difference in dates for what it clearly 2 different men. An old bio showing that they are not sure which is the spouse does not make the profiles not 2 different people. What is disputed is more than just who is the spouse. The findagrave shows date of birth as 1702 not 1726. The stone has Charles Keyser not Carl. What is also disputed is that Carl Sebastian Kyser is the same person as Charles Keyser buried in Page county, VA. I have posted more sources as well. This match was this already rejected once this week already. The match is still being rejected. Please don't change the bio just to corroborate a merge.
posted on Keyser-99 (merged) by K Hardcastle
Keyser-337 and Keyser-99 appear to represent the same person because: Ready for merge.
posted on Keyser-99 (merged) by Brenda (Milne) Rutherford
Without having specific knowledge of this family, it seems likely to me that Raffnacher, Ruffnacher, and Schumacher are all variants of the same name, recorded differently by different clerks -- or possibly merely transcribed differently by people who interpreted the same handwriting differently. All three names ought to be recorded in her profile, both in the biography section and in the profile data.
posted by Ellen Smith
The Biography states Karl's mother was Anna Catharina Raffnacher (see Ruffnacher-1) but his profile shows her as Anna Catharina Schumacher. Which one is correct?
posted by [Living Magyar]
Keyser-337 and Kayser-154 do not represent the same person because: The profiles should be investigated. the twenty-year difference could

indicate different generations I would PPP them, make a statement about the things that are an issue and if anyone finds some information please share on G2G or put on side bar

posted by [Living Snyder]
Re: Keyser-99 Keyser-337 and Kayser-154

Problems that need discussion before merging these profiles:

1/ What is correct LNAB - Kayser or Keyser?

2/ What is to be done about the disagreement about his wife/wives?

3/ What is the correct information on his birth?

posted by Dave Rutherford
Keyser-337 and Keyser-99 are not ready to be merged because: The wives are different. I think that the Keyser genealogy is wrong and that his wife was Elizabeth Grossgloss.
posted on Keyser-99 (merged) by Sheila Stahl
Do you have any idea why the findagrave has dates of (1726-1778) but The Keyser Family lists by several sources 1702-1774?
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by K Hardcastle
Keyser-666 and Keyser-337 appear to represent the same person because: Although I am not 100% sure that this Charles Keyser is the father of this same Joseph Kiser, the information in the profile is the same person as found in The Keyser Family
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by K Hardcastle
Kayser-154 and Keyser-214 appear to represent the same person because: Same family, variations in name spellings.
Keyser-99 and Keyser-337 are not ready to be merged because: I didn't know that there was any solid information about Charles Keyser's parents. If you have some, I'll approve the merge.
posted on Keyser-337 (merged) by Sheila Stahl

Rejected matches › Carl KayserJohn Keyser (1702-1777)