Andrew Lancaster
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Andrew Lancaster

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Signed 20 Sep 2014 | 36,203 contributions | 2,709 thank-yous | 2,711 connections

If you see me make errors or omissions, let me know. Please also let me know if you would like to help manage any profiles I am currently managing. I want the information I've posted on Wikitree, including on my own profile, to help researchers to go further, both now and in the future.
Andrew P. Lancaster
Born 1960s.
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Son of [private father (1940s - unknown)] and [private mother (1940s - unknown)]
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My old website

I had a genealogical website, which can be seen in archived form here:

Interests in genealogy

Genetic Genealogy

I was very active in the first decades of Y DNA projects. I admin several projects still, and I wrote an article about my own Haplogroup, trying to cut through all the nonsense. This also led to some published correspondence:

  • Lancaster, Andrew (2009), "Y Haplogroups, Archaeological Cultures and Language Families: a Review of the Multidisciplinary Comparisons using the case of E-M35", Journal of Genetic Genealogy 5 (1)
  • Lancaster, Andrew (2010), "Chadic languages and Y haplogroups", European Journal of Human Genetics 18, 1185; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2010.88

Modern Belgian

I have had spurts working on my wife and children's Belgian genealogy. 16 great great grandparents-in-law. Paternal: Boon, Raeymaekers, Mottie, Vanaudenaerden, Weenen, Gazia, Hendrickx, Beelen; Maternal: Smets, Lemmens, Wolput, Goossens, Bas (Limburg), Adams, Elsen, Van Brussel

English medieval

Articles in Foundations:

  • Lancaster, Andrew (2007), "The de Lancasters of Westmorland: Lesser-Known Branches, and the Origin of the de Lancasters of Howgill", Foundations: Journal of the Foundation of Medieval Genealogy (FMG) 2 (4)
  • Lancaster, Andrew (2019), "The Baronial Baynard Family and its Later Descendants", Foundations: Journal of the Foundation of Medieval Genealogy (FMG) Vol.11.
  • Lancaster, Andrew (2020), "The Anglo-Norman baronies of Aveley and Crich", Foundations: Journal of the Foundation of Medieval Genealogy (FMG) Vol.12.

My Hastings work I decided to turn into a website for now instead of publishing in a standard format. They are now hosted on the Medieval Genealogy website of Chris Phillips.

Some long term medieval interests I have worked on in Wikitree:

Belgian medieval

Peer reviewed: Andrew Lancaster (2022) “Rebooting discussion about the ancestry of the first counts of Loon”, Medieval Low Countries, 8.

Very early medieval

I've done various bits and pieces.

19th century Australia

The colonization of Australia created a tight web of early NSW families who I descend from. I have 43 ancestors who migrated to Australia in the 19th century, between 1804 and 1864. 27 of these migrant ancestors were in 11 family emigrations (not counting Jane Wyer), starting with the Livingstones. 10 others had already come as convicts from 1804 to 1835 (counting Jane Wyer's mother as one). 6 apparently came out alone (3 men, 3 women). Jane Wyer, a special case, came with her convict mother and they were the first in my family tree to arrive on Australian soil.

All my 8 great grandparents were born in Australia in the 19th century. Before them, were the immigrations. Out of the 16 great great grandparents, 6 were not born in Australia, and 10 were born in Australia:

  • 2 came as a newly married couple (the Rossingtons on my mother's side).
  • 4 (all among my father's 8 great grandparents) were born overseas and immigrated young with at least one parent in one of the 11 family groups mentioned above.
  • 3 were born in Australia, but to couples who already married and started to have children overseas. (Barnett and Nelson on my father's side and Ross on my mother's.)
  • 3 were born in Australia to couples married in Australia but both born overseas. There was 1 convict among the 6 parents, Michael Spence. Apart from the Spences on my father's side, the other two foreign-born couples who got together in Australia were the Willises and the Thompsons.
  • 2 were born in Australia to couples where the mother was born in Australia, and the father was not. Both these are on my mother's side: Louisa Bradley (1 convict grandparent) and Ruth Stearns (2 convict grandparents).
  • Only 1, my "most Australian" great great grandparent, had two Australian-born parents. She is on my father's side, Harriet Rebecca Barber. Her 4 grandparents included 3 convicts, and the child of a convict (Jane Wyer).
  • There is one complicated case. Who was the father of Horace Bradley Livingstone (born Horace Bradley)?
  • His father in most ways was George Melrose Livingstone, whose paternal grandparents were a Scottish Livingstone couple who came out newly married already in the 1830s, before the bigger waves of free settlers. Both his maternal grandparents were convicts. Horace was born only a year before George married Horace's mother, and Horace was quickly given George's surname. The newly married Livins, or Livingstones (a spelling they settled on later) arrived Sydney 18th Dec 1838 on the Portland.
  • His biological father, it can now be concluded with a high degree of certainty, had to be one of the sons of Johann Andreas Baumgarten. Given the time and place, it was probably one of his younger sons born in Australia to his second wife. So I have a great great grandfather whose parents were both born in Germany.

Of my 16 great great grandparents then, 9 or 10 were born in Australia, but all of them died in Australia. Of my father's 8 great grandparents, 4 were born in Australia. On my mother's side, 5 or 6 of her 8 great grandparents appear to have been born in Australia with the uncertain one being the unknown Baumgarten.

When we look at my 32 great great great grandparents the Australian migration wave pattern is even more striking:

  • 2 of my father's 16 great great grandparents were born in Australia, Joseph Barber, whose father was a convict, and his wife Charlotte Avery, whose parents were both convicts. But 14 of the 16 died in Australia. Elizabeth Phillips died on the boat coming out, and William Norton died before he could follow his family.
  • 2 of my mother's 16 great great grandparents were born in Australia, Sarah Plaw, whose parents were both convicts, and Martha Jane Oaks, whose father was a convict. But 11 or 12 of the 16 died in Australia, once again depending upon the exact identity of our Baumgarten ancestor. Concerning the other 4, we don't know all the parents of George and Jane Rossington, but there is no reason to think they ever emigrated.

My first 8 immigrant ancestors between 1804 and 1835 were convicts:

  1. The mother of Jane "Wyer" (various spellings). Transported on the Experiment (departed Spithead 6 Dec 1803 Dec 6, arrived Sydney 24 June 1804). Reasonable doubts exist about whether the biological mother was Elizabeth Ware, whose maiden name was apparently Lightburn, or else Mary West (aka Sarah Tandy) who probably brought her up, or someone else, but she must have been the child of a convict, and official records give the name of the boat Jane was on.
  2. John Barber, Jane Wyer's eventual husband, was transported on the Marquis of Wellington from London 1st Sep 1814 to Sydney 27th Jan 1815 via Madeira and Rio. Went to Australia for involvement in the theft of a horse. Died as one of Goulburn's first horse doctors.
  3. John Abel Avery. Transported on the Asia (2) in 1822. A chimney sweep who stole a silver spoon drying on a window sill.
  4. William Plaw. Transported on the Hercules 11 (1) arriving 7 May 1825. Highway robbery in Surrey, apparently twice in a short period.
  5. George Oakes. Transported on the Speke 3 of 1826, for being a party in a poaching incident that the court decided to treat as attempted murder, as an example to the lower class. Another judge made an example of him in Australia after achieving freedom. (In both cases the judge's speeches were recorded in newspapers, and both explicitly referred to George being an example being set for his class.) A major attempted cattle heist in the Canberra region, which no one was caught red handed for, led to him being sent to Tasmania and Norfolk Island. But he survived.
  6. Charlotte Emma Davis. Transported on the Princess Charlotte in 1827. A Londoner who stole some money from an inn she was working and living in.
  7. Michael Spence. Transported on the Asia, arriving 27 June 1833. A London (and Surrey) bigamist from a better family, who did well in Australia. His later appointment as a JP led to a debate in parliament about the ethics of bringing up convict pasts.
  8. Margaret Jones or Mayben, the wife of William Plaw, from southwest England. Transported on the Mary 111 (5) arriving 6 Sep 1835. She is a bit of a mystery. One gaol record in Australia says she was born in Waterford, Ireland. William posted in newspapers that he would not pay her bills.

For completeness, here are the two convict grandparents of George Melrose Livingstone:

  1. John Painter. Transported on the Speke departed 22 Dec 1820 arrived Sydney 18th May 1821. A Gloucestershire man who absconded numerous times in Australia and even managed to get married under a false identity.
  2. Susan Wainwright. Transported 11th December 1832 from Whitby on the Diana. It arrived in Sydney on 25th May 1833. John Painter's wife. She got caught with stolen money in the Manchester area, but possibly she was Irish.)

Not counting Jane Wyer, the free immigrants in my "biological" family tree start after the convicts, 1836-1864, with 10 immigrations in the 1850s:

  1. Susan Casey apparently came as part of a special emigration programme for young Irish women on the James Pattison which arrived 11 Feb 1836, sailing from Cork. There has been a fictionalized novel written about her.
  2. The Lancasters came in the Agnes. Liverpool 1 November 1841, Sydney 13 March 1842
  3. The Barnetts came on the Emperor in November 1848.
  4. Emily Maria Hollis probably came to Australia on the Duke of Portland (via Victoria) in 1850, as part of the "distressed needlewomen" programme, intended to move unmarried women from English cities out to Australia.
  5. Matthew Bradley arrived in Victoria, Australia on the "El Dorado" on 19 Nov 1852 at the age of 19, with his brother Thomas Bradley. (Two other brothers, Anthony Hutchinson Bradley, and James Bradley, travelled out the next year on the "Mobile". But their parents had passed away earlier.)
  6. The Mahonys left Liverpool 27 August 1852, aboard the America. They arrived motherless in the new and remote colony of Moreton Bay on 10th January 1853.
  7. The Nelsons came from Gravesend to Sydney on the Java, which arrived 24 April 1853.
  8. William Stearns came to Australia on the Plantagenet of 1854, and changed his name to John once there.
  9. The Knight family arrived in Sydney on 25 February 1855 as assisted immigrants. They had paid one pound to sail on the ship Bengal which had left Southampton, England on 17 November 1854.
  10. The Willis family 31 Mar 1855 Southampton , 5 Jul 1855 in Sydney, on the Blenheim.
  11. The Nortons came on several boats. Scotia arrived 11 Jul 1849, Garland 15 Mar 1851, Bolton 23 Jun 1853, Mangerton 29 Jul 1855. Jane and her mother were on the Mangerton.
  12. The Robinsons arrived in Sydney on the Conway, 30 Dec 1856, which had departed from Liverpool.
  13. The Baumgartens arrived in 1858.
  14. Louisa Lydia Barwell 3 Mar 1859 on the Hornet having left Plymouth in 1858. She apparently traveled alone and had no family waiting. Described as a 21 year old "Nurse". Ironically, her mother appears to have been a convict who was allowed to stay in England after her ship underwent a mutiny and she made her way back with her future husband, the ship's steward.
  15. Henry Thompson claimed many years later to have arrived on a ship named Boston in 1861. This has not been possible to confirm.
  16. The Ross family arrived in Sydney 28 Jan 1864 on the Sirocco (1)
  17. The Rossingtons arrived in Brisbane on the Queen of the South, which apparently arrived 31 Jul 1864. They travelled from Brisbane to Sydney on the ship "Yarra Yarra" arriving in Sydney 7 June 1866.

For completeness, here are the two free settler grandparents of George Melrose Livingstone, who both arrived in Sydney 18th Dec 1838 on the Portland.

  1. David Peter Living from the Glammis area north of Dundee.
  2. Lily Melrose from the Edinburgh region, which is where she married David before they sailed out.

People interested in military history, or just how events fit together, will want to know that two of my immigrant ancestors were daughters of soldiers in the Napoleonic wars. One of these ladies was herself born in Egypt while her father Charles Bentley, an Irish solider, was on the campaign being led there by Nelson. The other, John Debenham fought under Wellington in Portugal and Spain, and later married while serving in Ireland, before returning to the English village he was born in. The Baumgartens also appear to have had ancestors involved in the Prussian military.

"Genetically", looking pre-migration at the great great great grandparent generation around 1800, both my parents (and therefore me) have at least about two thirds English ancestry and a big chunk of Irish. (People did move around before 1800, and it is not always clear where people were from.) But where tracing beyond 1600 is possible it becomes clear how interconnected Europe has always been...

A path back to the middle ages

On the other hand, I have one "gateway ancestor" to medieval genealogy so far: my great, great, great, great, great, great grand mother Dorothy Flacke. Although the concept of gateway ancestors is more typical in American genealogy, Australians can note that the great grand daughter of Dorothy who emigrated to Australia was Louisa Lydia Barwell (she being my great, great, great grandmother). Several of Louisa's siblings also went to New Zealand. I think that when speaking in our antipodean circles we may call these gateway ancestors?

The lesson learned from this line is that the further back a person is, the higher the chance of finding a connection to anyone, anywhere.

Through Dorothy my most recent royal descent discovered so far is Edward III (21st great grandfather).

Wikitree has helped me see that I am a direct descendant of the following notable people in the 17th century:

  • John Wrench, 1688 Mayor and 1669 Sheriff of Norwich (d. 1697) was Dorothy's great grandfather. She may well have been aware of this connection.
  • Francis Shuldham Esq. (d.1655), lord of the manor of Kettlestone, and son of William Shuldham, lord of the manor of Shuldham. He was Dorothy's great great great grandfather.
  • Bishop John Towers (d.1649). My most recent direct ancestor with his own Wikipedia article. He was Dorothy's great great great grandfather.
  • Roger Bozoun (d.1623), lord of the manor of Whissonsett, and his wife, who had very impressive ancestry, Anne Lestrange.

Because there are reasonable records for landholders, Dorothy's traceable family tree then continues to get bigger for several centuries. Here are some notable people from the 16th centuury:

  • Nicholas Layer (d.1598), a 1591 sheriff of Norwich, and son of William Layer, a mayor of Norwich.
  • John More (d.1588), MP for Ipswich, Cloth merchant, puritan.
  • The family of Anne Lestrange:
  • Anne's father Hamon Lestrange (d.1580), lord of the manor of Hunstanton, and his father Sir Nicholas Lestrange (d.1579), who was MP for Norfolk (1547), King's Lynn (1555), and Castle Rising (several times), and a sheriff of Norfolk and Suffolk. Nicholas, lord of quite a few manors, also has a Wikipedia article. Ralph Neville the 1st Earl of Westmorland, and husband of a grand daughter of King Edward III, was one of his great great great grandfathers.
  • Anne's mother Elizabeth, and Elizabeth's father Sir Hugh Hastings (d. 1541). According to later legal decisions Hugh should have been Baron Hastings, and this inheritance should have passed to Anne's brother. The Astley descendants of the Lestrange and Hastings families reclaimed the title in the 19th century and there is still a Lord Hastings in this line, who is my thirteenth cousin.

I am 7th cousins 11 times removed of Isaac Newton; 9th cousins 13 times removed of John Locke; and 7th cousins 10 times removed of the 3rd Earl of Shaftesbury.

Coming back to royalty, I am a 17th cousin once removed of the Duchess of Cambridge (Kate). Most recent known common ancestors are the couple, Sir Hugh Hastings and Anne Gascoigne.

Interestingly, with his largely German ancestry, I have to go fairly far to find common ancestry with George VI, Queen Elizabeth II's father. I think the most recent are Ralph de Neville, the 1st Earl of Westmorland, and his wife Joan de Beaufort, half-sister of King Henry IV, and ancestor of the Tudors.

With my Norfolk ancestry it is no surprise that I am a 7th cousin 6 times removed of Horatio Nelson. The most recent common ancestor I've found is Robert Kempe. Horatio's and Dorothy's families surely knew each other. Dorothy's aunt married the admiral's father's first cousin. The Flacks and Nelsons were both clerical families in the villages of northwestern coastal Norfolk.

Any line I post here has been checked by me, and such checking is important. An interesting case showing that work that needs to be done in Wikitree is for example trying to define if I have a relationship to Thomas Cromwell, and Oliver Cromwell. Last I checked, Wikitree says my most recent common ancestor for Thomas is Maud Bernake. (With Oliver I also have a connection through his maternal grandmother Joan Warren it seems, going back to Gascoigne, who is also a common ancestor with "Princess Kate" as mentioned above.) My understanding is that there is some level of doubt about Thomas Cromwell's ancestry beyond his grandfather.

There are also post-medieval ancestors from outside Britain and Ireland in Dorothy's ancestry.

  • Cesare Adelmare, doctor to Queen Mary, was from Treviso in Italy and also has a Wikipedia article.
  • John Bozoune of Wissingsett, Esq. married Elizabeth Rouncerey or Rouncey of France, apparently from Brittany. John may have served in a French campaign of 1513.
  • Catharina Panizzone came from northern Italy in the late Middle Ages and was also from a prominent medical family.
  • Katherine Roet, who was concubine and later wife to John of Gaunt, came to England from Hainaut in what is now Belgium.
  • Katherine apparently came to England with John's own mother, Phillipa, wife of Edward III, was also from Hainaut. Through her come many connections to the nobility of the Low Countries.

Magna Carta

It is a great boon to genealogy that in America, a lot of genealogists are into the idea of being descended from the "surety barons" who were chosen by the rebel barons as the authorities to enforce the Magna Carta. It is a handy set of men to aim at for a genealogist, because for many families lucky enough to be traceable into the middle ages, this is right at the moment when records start to become a bit easier to follow. Even very famous noble lines get confused before then.

One conclusion we can derive from using Wikitree's relationship finder tool is that most of Dorothy's ancestors were traceable "cousins", at least distantly. For example:

  • In every case Dorothy descends from a Magna Carta Baron, at least one of the connections is through Dorothy's most "noble" recent ancestor, her great, great, great, great grandmother Anne LeStrange, a descendant of King Edward III.
  • Another person in Dorothy's tree but not Anne's, with many direct Magna Carta ancestors is Thomas Kempe.

Below are links to show the relationships according to wikitree (in late 2015) between my "gateway ancestor" (own definition), Dorothy Flacke, and the Magna Carta surety Barons with descendants, as listed at the Magna Carta Project.

  1. William d'Albini. William is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy, 15th great grandfather of Thomas, and 12th great grandfather of Anne.
  2. Hugh Bigod. Hugh is the 15th great grandfather of both Dorothy, 12th great grandfather of Thomas, and 11th great grandfather of Anne.
  3. Roger Bigod, Hugh's father so Roger is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy, 11th great grandfather of Thomas, and 12th great grandfather of Anne.
  4. Henry de Bohun. Henry I is the 17th great grandfather of Dorothy, and 12th great grandfather of both Thomas and Anne.
  5. Gilbert de Clare. Gilbert is the 15th great grandfather of Dorothy, 10th great grandfather of Thomas, and 11th great grandfather of Anne.
  6. Richard de Clare. Gilbert's father so Richard is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy, 11th great grandfather of Thomas, and 12th great grandfather of Anne.
  7. John (Clavering) FitzRobert. John is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy, 11th great grandfather of Anne. There is also a probable line through Thomas.
  8. Robert FitzWalter. Robert is the 15th great grandfather of Dorothy, and 10th great grandfather of both Thomas and Anne.
  9. William de Huntingfield. William is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy, and 13th great grandfather of both Anne and (probably also) Thomas.
  10. John de Lacy. John is the 15th great grandfather of Dorothy, 10th great grandfather of Thomas, and 11th great grandfather of Anne.
  11. William de Lanvalay. William is the 19th great grandfather of Dorothy, and 13th great grandfather of Anne. No confirmed line for Thomas.
  12. William Malet. No direct descent yet. I will try to add more of William's descendants to Wikitree, but it seems many stayed in south Wales and southwestern England, far away from Dorothy, while some also ended up in France. (The Magna Carta generation were the same generation who needed to start thinking very seriously about whether they were French or English, because of the loss of Normandy. Some families ended up splitting different ways in order to keep possessions in both kingdoms.)
  13. William de Mowbray. William is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy, 11th great grandfather of Thomas, and the 12th great grandfather of Anne.
  14. Saher de Quincy. Saher IV is the 15th great grandfather of Dorothy, 10th great grandfather of Thomas, and the 11th great grandfather of Anne.
  15. Robert de Ros. Robert II is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy and the 10th great grandfather of Anne. There is also a probable line for Thomas.
  16. Geoffrey de Say. Geoffrey is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy, and the 12th great grandfather of Anne. There is also a probable line for Thomas.
  17. Robert de Vere. Robert I is the 15th great grandfather of Dorothy Flacke, 10th great grandfather of Thomas Kempe, and 11th great grandfather of Anne LeStrange.

I might as well do the same for the list of "Illustrious Men" who were at Runnymede representing the side of King John...

  1. Phillipe d’Aubigny. Wikitree says no issue, but Dorothy is Phillipe's 16th great grand niece. (Dorothy descends from his sister Gunnora.)
  2. William d'Aubigny. William IV is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  3. Alan Basset. Alan is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  4. Thomas Basset. Thomas is the 19th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  5. Hubert de Burgh. Hubert is the 19th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  6. Warin Fitzgerald. Warin is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  7. Matthew FitzHerbert. Matthew is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  8. Piers FitzHerbert. Piers is the 17th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  9. John FitzHugh. Apparently 14th great grandfather of Dorothy, depending on how surely we can identify the father of Margaret Hervey.
  10. Alan of Galloway. Alan is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  11. John Marshal. John is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  12. William Marshal (a famous knight!). William is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  13. Hugh de Neville. Hugh is the 19th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  14. William Longespée (King John's illegitimate half brother). William is the 15th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  15. Robert de Roppesley. He had no children according to Wikitree, although I have seen it claimed otherwise (and indeed that his name should be Robert de Rokkeley). I presume he was the de Roppesley that was knocked down by William Marshall in his 70s in Lincoln, Roppesley having switched sides.
  16. William de Warenne. William is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy.

These are not all checked in detail by me, and it is hopeful the results can change as wikitree improves. Some links will probably need to be broken because unproven. However the above says something about the ancestry of Dorothy.


Some centuries earlier there is the list of 21 confirmed companions of William the Conqueror (19th great grandfather of Dorothy) in 1066 at Hastings (as found for example on Wikipedia). See the Category: Companions of William The Conqueror.

  1. Robert de Beaumont, later first Earl of Leicester. 18th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  2. Eustace (II), Count of Boulogne. 22nd great grandfather of Dorothy.
  3. William, afterwards Count of Evreux. who had no children. I descend instead from his nephew and heir Amaury.
  4. Geoffrey of Mortagne, afterwards Count of Perche. 21st great grandfather of Dorothy.
  5. William Fitz Osbern, afterwards first Earl of Hereford. 19th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  6. Aimeri, Vicomte of Thouars. 21st great grandfather of Dorothy.
  7. Hugh de Montfort, seigneur of Montfort-sur-Risle. 21st great grandfather of Dorothy.
  8. Walter Giffard, seigneur of Longueville. 18th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  9. Ralph de Toeni, seigneur of Conches. 21st great grandfather of Dorothy.
  10. Hugh de Grandmesnil, seigneur de Grandmesnil. 19th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  11. William de Warenne, afterwards first Earl of Surrey. 19th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  12. William Malet, seigneur of Graville. 21st great grandfather of Dorothy.
  13. Eudes (or Odo), Bishop of Bayeux, afterwards Earl of Kent. (Half brother of William the Conqueror.) No known descendants it seems.
  14. Turstin Fitz Rolf. No known descendants it seems.
  15. Engenulf de Laigle, seigneur of Laigle. 23rd great grandfather of Dorothy.
  16. Geoffrey de Mowbray, Bishop of Coutances. No known descendants it seems.
  17. Robert, Count of Mortain, afterwards first Earl of Cornwall (brother of Bishop Odo, half brother of William the Conqueror). 21st great grandfather of Dorothy.
  18. Wadard, believed to be a follower of the Bishop of Bayeux. There do seem to be lines surviving to today, but no connection so far.
  19. Vital, believed to be a follower of the Bishop of Bayeux.
  20. Goubert d'Auffay, seigneur of Auffay. I have not identified this person.
  21. Humphrey of Tilleul-en-Auge. I have not identified this person.

Medieval Lancasters

1. Firstly, as a Lancaster I am interested in the first family who definitely called themselves Lancasters as a family name, the Barons of Kendal (William I-> William II-> Helewise). I can trace lines to them through the above-mentioned Louisa Barwell, who is however on my mother's side. William I has a good trail. Hawise has several possible paths, but all include some doubtful links (parents of Dacre-114, mother of Fitz Lewes-1, father of Fauconberg-5, mother of Camoys-28, etc.)

2. I've worked a lot with Lancaster genealogists around the world, not only with paper trails, but also Y DNA. I believe the biggest concentration of Lancasters in medieval times was in Cumbria in the NW corner of England, around the Lake District. Many of these descended from illegitimate children of the barons of Kendal. My Lancasters are a smaller group with a distinct Y DNA signature found around the Lancashire/Yorskhire border. However they also seem to have some sort of Cumbrian connection, given that this DNA signature is shared with most families with surnames Satterthwaite, Satterfield, Satterwhite, which are all derived from the name of the hamlet of Satterthwaite.

3. Royalty? Lancaster genealogists surely all sometimes wonder about the "House of Lancaster" in the War of the Roses. This was not a "Lancaster family" but a branch of the "Plantagenet" royal family. In theory they might have given Lancaster as a surname to illegitimate children, but they are not known to have originated major Lancaster families in Britain (as opposed to Spain and Portugal). In any case:

  • As it happens my one known descent from Edward III is via John of Gaunt (Ghent), Duke of Lancaster (and born in Gent, Belgium), the founder of that dynasty. This is once again via my mother, and has nothing to do with my surname.
  • Are there any descents at all today from the 3 Lancastrian kings themselves, Henry IV, V and IV? This is tracked in one section of the Edward III descents project. There are some illegitimate grandchildren of Henry IV who have descendants. The most well-known ones descend from Henry Grey, Lord of Powys in Wales, who married Antigone, daughter of Humphrey the Duke of Gloucester. There may be more lines in France, descended from Antigone's second marriage or from her cousin Mary, daughter of John Duke of Bedford. Mary had a brother "Richard Bastard of Bedford" who married in England.

Thinking about Wikitree

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DNA Connections
It may be possible to confirm family relationships. Paternal line Y-chromosome DNA test-takers: Maternal line mitochondrial DNA test-takers:
  • Andrew Lancaster: Family Tree DNA mtDNA Test Full Sequence, haplogroup T2a1a2, FTDNA kit #22762
It is likely that these autosomal DNA test-takers will share some percentage of DNA with Andrew: Have you taken a test? If so, login to add it. If not, see our friends at Ancestry DNA.
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Hi Andrew, thank you for all of your great work and research on WikiTree! The leader of the Cornwall team, Sarah Grimaldi, suggested that I reach out to Medieval Project team (which lists you as a project coordinator) in regard to John Carew of Anthony House. I was wondering if you could review and help me connect Joan Carew ( to her father, John Carew ( My research notes (mostly based on Brad Verity's research) are in the comment that I posted on his profile. According to his son's History of Parliament biography, John Carew's wife was Thomasine Holland, but her profile has not been created yet. Many thanks in advance!
posted by Andrew Z
edited by Andrew Z
Andrew, thank you for your really helpful comment on my personal profile and I have replied on same. I have also added another comment on Robert Mauduit.

I have added in this comment a piece regarding I know this may be contentious as I have been somewhat criticised for using this site in the past but I really believe it is far more accurate than Lewis for sources, should I move the comment to G2G for perusal, I would welcome your thoughts.

posted by Malc Rowlands
edited by Malc Rowlands
Hello Andrew,I am pretty new at this and want to thank you for the information on the Lancasters of Colne.I just came across your research and I know I will be able to go further in my tree.My 2nd great grandmother was Elizabeth Lancaster Crawshaw of Colne.
posted by Rosemary Crawshaw
Hi Andrew

Just to let you know I really appreciated your comments on the G2G question about “Year of Accuracy”. I especially liked the idea of buddies for newbies - a lot of the a accuracy and sourcing issues could be nipped in the bud if newbies weren’t allowed to go back beyond perhaps 1840 without some sign off. Fiona

posted by Fiona McMichael
Andrew, have you come across anything about Sir Richard Musgrave and Causa de Heron? (I think I might be onto something re: a long-standing family brickwall, but I need more info and I think you're one of the goto experts on the Musgraves).
posted by [Living Ogle]
Hi Andrew!

Some time ago, you have expressed your interest in Project Belgium. The project has recently been promoted from a free-space project to a more official project (actually a sub-project of Europe)! You can find the (revamped) project page here.

That means among other things that you can now receive a project badge (of the Europe Project) indicating your involvement, that we can more easily create stickers, that we will be able to discuss and "officially" establish guidelines and standards relating to Belgian profiles, and that we will have a project account for important Belgian profiles.

If you're still interested, could you (re)confirm your interest to become a member of Project Belgium by answering this g2g post? I will then make sure you receive the (Europe) badge!

Best regards,


posted by Filip Beunis
Hi Andrew, yes, it can get confusing and she did marry a Plantagenet after she had been married to Henry I of France.

I don't think married names were used back then, I agree with you. She had a very interesting history long before Edward Crouchback.

posted by Carolyn Gibson

Here is a line you may like:

I've suggested an ascent from this guy (above Maud Huntingdon et al) to Charlemagne, on the public comments.

posted by Isaac Taylor
Hi Andrew I'm away for a work conference until next weekend, and not much time to respond to anything, but in regards to the Courtenay issue please have a look at the G2G from a while ago, which is on one of the Renaud profiles. It didn't get much traction, but someone did respond with a section from Douglas Richardson who has the English Renaud Courtenay as of uncertain parentage presumably implying that he is not the same as the French Renaud Courtenay. I also linked to a discussion on Gen Medieval, though I would have to find that again as I must have linked to the Rootsweb version. If I remember correctly it was from quite a few years ago. Anything further is going to have to wait until I am back. Thanks John
posted by John Atkinson
Re: - the parents are marked uncertain. Wikitree gives us that option when things are uncertain. Also, this is a Protected Profile with the uncertainty noted in the biography space.

If you do try to disconnect (PP status will probably not allow this), please check with the European Aristocratics project managers first (listed under profile managers) and place the 3 profiles concerned in the biography space (with links to Wikitree profiles) of each profile effected by the disconnection.

Sorry for the lost work. I generally check my watchlist when I wake up, 5-7 AM Eastern US time, to see what changes have been made to profiles I manage or watch. Sometimes I catch changes that should not have been made. Other times I decide it is time to let that profile go.

When there is an edit conflict, the solution is simple: while it is on the screen, copy all of the profile or the part you have worked on. Then bring up the profile afresh, and paste your material at the bottom, and save it, perhaps with a note at the top that you're working on the profile. Then you re-edit the profile. A bit more work, but you haven't lost anything.

posted by Jack Day
Hi! You deleted the message that gave a different death year for Isabel... Was it a different Isabel? Should I ignore your original post?
You said "Sanders says she died 1252. (English Baronies, p.102)" in a comment on Clare-18
posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Hi Andrew,

I would like to start a "Belgium" sub-project under the "Europe" project. (see

Since you're one of the members of the "Belgian roots" page, I wanted to ask whether you have any objections to that? Would you mind, if there would be such a project, that I use some of the information on that page to get things going?

Of course, I hope you'll be one of the first members, if the project is set up!

Best regards, Filip

posted by Filip Beunis
thanks for the merge suggestions for St Liz/Saint Liz & her husband.

Your comment on St_Liz-10 says it should not take priority. I'm guessing you mean in terms of information, not that the LNAB should remain Saint Liz (as I understand them, EuroAristo guidelines call for St Liz ... right?).

Anyway, I've approved the merge but have not completed it. Could you complete it? Or confirm that St Liz is the correct LNAB & I'll complete it, retaining Saint_Liz-2 information.

posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Andrew, making more than one thousand contributions in September added so much to the breadth and depth of our Shared Tree. The Appreciation Team thanks YOU!

Pippin Sheppard

WikiTree’s Appreciation Team

posted by Pip Sheppard
Here's another pretty good dead-end, for a man of your talents:

There's a Beatrice de Warenne alive in that era, but she's married to a de Burgh not a de Poyning. Perhaps there's another?

posted by Isaac Taylor

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