Andrew Lancaster

Andrew Lancaster

Privacy Level: Private with Public Biography and Family Tree (Yellow)
Andrew P. Lancaster
Born 1960s.
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Son of [private father (1940s - unknown)] and [private mother (1940s - unknown)]
Brother of [private sibling (1970s - unknown)], [private brother (1970s - unknown)] and [private sibling (1980s - unknown)]
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Profile last modified | Created 19 Sep 2014 | Last significant change: 19 Nov 2018
00:24: Maryann (Thompson) Hurt edited a message from Maryann (Thompson) Hurt on the page for Andrew Lancaster. [Thank Maryann for this]
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Categories: European Aristocrats Project | Australian Convicts and First Settlers Project.

I have a genealogical webpage, here: http://users.skynet.be/lancaster

Contents

Ideas about Wikitree

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Andrew_Lancaster_Policy_Proposals_October_2018

Recent work

Modern Belgian

In 2017 I have been working on my wife and children's Belgian genealogy. 16 great great grandparents-in-law. Paternal: Boon, Raeymaekers, Mottie, Vanaudenaerden, Weenen, Gazia, Hendrickx, Beelen; Maternal: Smets, Lemmens, Wolput, Goossens, Bas (Limburg), Adams, Elsen, Van Brussel

English medieval

Some long term medieval interests I have worked on in Wikitree:

Belgian medieval

Very early medieval

19th century Australia

Migration is not a simple event. I have 43 ancestors who migrated to Australia in the 19th century, between 1804 and 1864. 27 of these migrant ancestors were in 11 family emigrations (not counting Jane Wyer), starting with the Livingstones. 11 had already come as convicts (counting Jane Wyer's mother as one). 6 apparently came out alone (3 men, 3 women). Jane Wyer, a special case, came with her convict mother and they were the first in my family tree to arrive on Australian soil.

All my 8 great grandparents were born in Australia in the 19th century. Out of the 16 great great grandparents, 6 were not born in Australia, and 10 were born in Australia:

  • 2 came as a newly married couple (the Rossingtons on my mother's side).
  • 4 (all among my father's 8 great grandparents) were born overseas and immigrated with at least one parent in one of the 11 family groups mentioned above.
  • 3 were born in Australia to couples who already married and started to have children overseas. (Barnett and Nelson on my father's side and Ross on my mother's.)
  • 3 were born in Australia to couples married in Australia but both born overseas. There was 1 convict among the 6 parents, Michael Spence. Apart from the Spences on my father's side, the other two foreign-born couples who got together in Australia were the Willises and the Thompsons.
  • 2 were born in Australia to couples where the mother was born in Australia, and the father was not. (Through these 2 parents, they had 3 convict grandparents.) Both these are on my mother's side: Louisa Bradley and Ruth Stearns, both of whose mothers had convict parents.
  • 2, the "most Australian", were born to 2 Australian-born parents: one on my father's side, Harriet Rebecca Barber, and one on my mother's side, George Livingstone. Their 8 grandparents included 5 convicts, the child of a convict (Jane Wyer) and a Scottish Livingstone couple who came out newly married already in the 1830s, before the bigger waves of free settlers.

Of my 32 great great grandparents, only 6 were born in Australia, each of those with at least one convict parent except in the case of the Livingstone family. But nearly all of them died in Australia, most in the 19th century:

  • Of my father's 16 great grandparents, only two did not die in Australia. One (Elizabeth Mahony) died on the ship coming to Australia, and the other (William Norton) had also apparently planned to follow his wife and family eventually.
  • On my mother's side, the 3 known parents of George and Jane Rossington, who were among the last to make the trip, all died in England. George's father in unknown.

The first 10 immigrants between 1804 and 1835 were convicts:

  1. Michael Spence. Transported on the Asia, arriving 27 June 1833. A London bigamist, who did well in Australia. His later appointment as a JP led to a debate in parliament about the ethics of bringing up convict pasts.
  2. John Barber. Transported on the Marquis of Wellington from London 1st Sep 1814 to Sydney 27th Jan 1815 via Madeira and Rio. Went to Australia for stealing a horse. Died as one of Goulburn's first horse doctors.
  3. The mother of Jane "Wyer" (various spellings). Transported on the Experiment (departed Spithead 6 Dec 1803 Dec 6, arrived Sydney 24 June 1804). Some doubts exist about whether the biological mother was Elizabeth Ware, whose maiden name was apparently Lightburn, or Mary West aka Sarah Tandy who actually brought her up. See the profile of Jane. I tend to believe it was Elizabeth who was an accessory for a money forging accusation against her husband. (The Bank of England had special powers extending even to life and death.) Remarkably, Elizabeth managed to stow away back to England, explaining why the baby was left with a shipmate who managed to marry in the colony.
  4. John Abel Avery. Transported on the Asia (2) in 1822. A chimney sweep who stole a silver spoon drying on a window sill.
  5. Charlotte Emma Davis. Transported on the Princess Charlotte in 1827. A Londoner who stole some money from an inn she was working and living in.
  6. William Plaw. Transported on the Hercules 11 (1) arriving 7 May 1825. Highway robbery in Surrey and Sussex, apparently twice in a short period.
  7. Margaret Jones, the wife of William Plaw. Transported on the Mary 111 (5) arriving 6 Sep 1835. Also known by other names, and a bit of a mystery from southwest England. William posted in newspapers that he would not pay her bills.
  8. John Painter. Transported on the Speke departed 22 Dec 1820 arrived Sydney 18th May 1821. A Gloucestershire man who absconded numerous times in Australia and even managed to get married under a false identity.
  9. Susan Wainwright. Transported 11th December 1832 from Whitby on the Diana. It arrived in Sydney on 25th May 1833. John Painter's wife. She got caught with stolen money in the Manchester area, but possibly she was Irish.
  10. George Oakes. Transported on the Speke 3 of 1826, for being a party in a poaching incident that the court decided to treat as attempted murder, as an example to the lower class. Another judge made an example of him in Australia after achieving freedom. (In both cases the judge's speeches were recorded in newspapers, both referring to George as an example being set for his class.) A major attempted cattle heist in the Canberra region, which no one was caught red handed for, led to him being sent to Tasmania and Norfolk Island. But he survived.

The free immigrants in my family tree start after the convicts, 1836-1864, with 10 immigrations in the 1850s:

  1. Susan Casey apparently came as part of a special emigration programme for young Irish women on the James Pattison which arrived 11 Feb 1836, sailing from Cork
  2. The newly married Livins, or Livingstones (a spelling they settled on later) arrived Sydney 18th Dec 1838 on the Portland.
  3. The Lancasters came in the Agnes. Liverpool 1 November 1841, Sydney 13 March 1842
  4. The Barnetts came on the Emperor in November 1848.
  5. Emily Maria Hollis probably came to Australia on the Duke of Portland (via Victoria) in 1850, as part of the "distressed needlewomen" programme, intended to move unmarried women from English cities out to Australia.
  6. Matthew Bradley arrived in Victoria, Australia on the "El Dorado" on 19 Nov 1852 at the age of 19, with his brother Thomas Bradley. (Two other brothers, Anthony Hutchinson Bradley, and James Bradley, traveled out the next year on the "Mobile". But their parents had passed away earlier.)
  7. The Mahonys left Liverpool 27 August 1852, aboard the America. They arrived motherless in the new and remote colony of Moreton Bay on 10th January 1853.
  8. The Nelsons came from Gravesend to Sydney on the Java, which arrived 24 April 1853.
  9. William Stearns came to Australia on the Plantagenet of 1854, and changed his name to John once there.
  10. The Knight family arrived in Sydney on 25 February 1855 as assisted immigrants. They had paid one pound to sail on the ship Bengal which had left Southhampton, England on 17 November 1854.
  11. The Willis family 31 Mar 1855 Southampton , 5 Jul 1855 in Sydney, on the Blenheim.
  12. The Nortons came on several boats. Scotia arrived 11 Jul 1849, Garland 15 Mar 1851, Bolton 23 Jun 1853, Mangerton 29 Jul 1855. Jane and her mother were on the Mangerton.
  13. The Robinsons arrived in Sydney on the Conway, 30 Dec 1856, which had departed from Liverpool.
  14. Louisa Lydia Barwell 3 Mar 1859 on the Hornet having left Plymouth in 1858. She apparently traveled alone and had no family waiting. Described as a 21 year old "Nurse".
  15. Henry Thompson claimed many years later to have arrived on a ship named Boston in 1861. This has not been possible to confirm.
  16. The Ross family arrived in Sydney 28 Jan 1864 on the Sirocco (1)
  17. The Rossingtons arrived in Brisbane on the Queen of the South, which apparently arrived 31 Jul 1864. They traveled from Brisbane to Sydney on the ship "Yarra Yarra" arriving in Sydney 7 June 1866.

People interested in military history, or just how events fit together, will want to know that two of my immigrant ancestors were daughters of soldiers in the Napoleonic wars. One of these ladies was herself born in Egypt while her father Charles Bentley, an Irish solider, was on the campaign being led there by Nelson. The other, John Debenham fought under Wellington in Portugal and Spain, and later married while serving in Ireland, before returning to the English village he was born in.

"Genetically", looking pre-migration at the great great great grandparent generation around 1800, both my parents (and therefore me) have at least about two thirds English ancestry and 20% Irish. (People did move around before 1800, and it is not always clear where people were from.) The rest is Scottish and Welsh and Henry Thompson appears to have been Norwegian (3.1% of my ancestry). But where tracing beyond 1600 is possible it becomes clear how interconnected Europe has always been...

Medieval

On the other hand, I have one "gateway ancestor" to medieval genealogy so far: my great, great, great, great, great, great grand mother Dorothy Flacke. Although the concept of gateway ancestors is more typical in American genealogy, Australians can note that the great grand daughter of Dorothy who emigrated to Australia was Louisa Lydia Barwell (she being my great, great, great grandmother). Several of Louisa's siblings also went to New Zealand. I think that when speaking in our antipodean circles we may call these gateway ancestors?

The lesson learned from this line is that the further back a person is, the higher the chance of finding a connection to anyone, anywhere.

Through Dorothy my most recent royal descent discovered so far is Edward III (21st great grandfather).

Wikitree has helped me see that I am:

Most recent known common ancestor William FitzWilliam.
Most recent known common ancestor Robert Kempe.
(His close family and Dorothy's were related by marriage though. Dorothy's aunt married the admiral's father's first cousin. The Flacks and Nelsons were both clerical families in the villages of northwestern coastal Norfolk.)
Most recent known common ancestor William Geddinge Esq.
Most recent known common ancestor: William Gascoigne.
Most recent known common ancestor: William FitzWilliam.
Most recent known common ancestor: William FitzWilliam.
  • A 17th cousin 3 times removed of George VI, Queen Elizabeth's father.
Most recent known common ancestor: Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland.

I have checked the above examples. But an interesting case showing that work that needs to be done in Wikitree is for example trying to define if I have a relationship to Thomas Cromwell, and Oliver Cromwell. Last I checked, Wikitree says my most recent common ancestor for Thomas is Maud Bernake. (With Oliver I also have a connection through his maternal grandmother Joan Warren it seems, going back to Gascoigne, who is also my common ancestor with "Princess Kate" mentioned above. The FitzWilliams and Gascoignes have a lot of descendants it seems.)

Despite what Wikitree has, I understand there is some level of doubt about Cromwell's ancestry beyond his grandfather. Furthermore it seems Wikitree might have it wrong even compared to the accounts which exist. More likely my most recent common direct ancestor is Ralph - Maud Bernake's father-in-law, not her husband.

Magna Carta

It is a great boon to genealogy that in America, a lot of genealogists are into the idea of being descended from the "surety barons" who were chosen by the rebels as the authorities to enforce the Magna Carta. It is a handy set of men to aim at for a genealogist, because for many families lucky enough to be traceable into the middle ages, this is right at the moment when records start to become a bit easier to follow. Even very famous noble lines get confused before then. However on wikitree the relationship tool will not work this far back, and in any case going this far back you often come across bits needing a lot of re-checking. So I check descents from my "gateway ancestor", Dorothy, who lived closer in time to those people.

One point we can derive from this tool on Wikitree is that most of Dorothy's ancestors were traceable "cousins", at least distantly:

  • In every case Dorothy descends from a Magna Carta Baron, at least one of the connections is through Dorothy's most "noble" recent ancestor, her great, great, great, great grandmother Anne LeStrange, a descendant of King Edward III.
  • Another person in Dorothy's tree but not Anne's, with many direct Magna Carta ancestors is Mary Drury. But then again Anne descended from Mary's great grandfather Nicholas Drury, making them second cousins (though 6 times removed, Mary being several generations earlier than Anne).

More such key ancestors deserve mention although their paper trails to Dorothy are less certain, for example:

Below are links to show the relationships according to wikitree (in late 2015) between my "gateway ancestor" (own definition), Dorothy Flacke, and the Magna Carta surety Barons with descendants, as listed at the Magna Carta Project.

  1. William d'Albini. William is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy, 14th great grandfather of Anne, not a direct ancestor of Mary Drury, and 7th great grandfather of Thomas Hervey.
  2. Hugh Bigod. Hugh is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy, 13th great grandfather of Anne, 7th great grandfather of Mary, but not a direct ancestor of Thomas.
  3. Roger Bigod, Hugh's father so Roger is the 17th great grandfather of Dorothy, and 14th great grandfather of Anne.
  4. Henry de Bohun. Henry I is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy, and 13th great grandfather of Anne. (Dorothy also has at least one line not through Anne.)
  5. Gilbert de Clare. Gilbert is the 15th great grandfather of Dorothy, and 12th great grandfather of Anne. (Dorothy also has a proposed, but I think unprovable, connection independently of Anne, through a Clifford family in Kent.)
  6. Richard de Clare. Gilbert's father so Richard is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy and 13th great grandfather of Anne.
  7. John (Clavering) FitzRobert. John is the 19th great grandfather of Dorothy, and Wikitree's chosen line is through Anne.
  8. Robert FitzWalter. Robert is the 17th great grandfather of Dorothy, and Wikitree's chosen line is through Anne.
  9. William de Huntingfield. William is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy, and Wikitree's chosen line is through Anne.
  10. John de Lacy. John is the 15th great grandfather of Dorothy, and 12th great grandfather of Anne. (Dorothy again also has a proposed, but I think unprovable, connection independently of Anne, through a Clifford family in Kent.)
  11. William de Lanvalay. William is the 19th great grandfather of Dorothy, and Wikitree's chosen line is through Anne.
  12. William Malet. No direct descent yet. William and Dorothy are second cousins 15 times removed. William is a grandson of Dorothy's (and Anne's, through at least one more line) 16th great grandfather, Hugh de Mortimer. I will try to add more of William's descendants to Wikitree, but it seems many stayed in south Wales and southwestern England, far away from Dorothy, while some also ended up in France. (The Magna Carta generation were the same generation who needed to start thinking very seriously about whether they were French or English, because of the loss of Normandy. Some families ended up splitting different ways in order to keep possessions in both kingdoms.)
  13. William de Mowbray. William is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy, and the 12th great grandfather of Anne, and Wikitree's chosen line is through Anne.
  14. Saher de Quincy. Saher IV is the 15th great grandfather of Dorothy and the 14th great grandfather of Anne. (Dorothy has at least one line not through Anne.)
  15. Robert de Ros. Robert II is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy and the 11th great grandfather of Anne. (Dorothy has at least one line not through Anne.)
  16. Geoffrey de Say. Geoffrey is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy, and Wikitree's chosen line is through Anne.
  17. Robert de Vere. Robert I is the 15th great grandfather of Dorothy Flacke, 11th great grandfather of Anne LeStrange, and 6th great grandfather of Mary Drury through a different path.


I might as well do the same for the list of "Illustrious Men" who were at Runnymede representing the side of King John...

  1. Phillipe d’Aubigny. Wikitree says no issue, but Dorothy is Phillipe's 16th great grand niece. (Dorothy descends from his sister Gunnora.)
  2. William d'Aubigny. William IV is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  3. Alan Basset. Alan is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  4. Thomas Basset. Thomas is the 19th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  5. Hubert de Burgh. Hubert is the 19th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  6. Warin Fitzgerald. Warin is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  7. Matthew FitzHerbert. Matthew is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  8. Piers FitzHerbert. Piers is the 17th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  9. John FitzHugh. Apparently 14th great grandfather of Dorothy, depending on how surely we can identify the father of Margaret Hervey.
  10. Alan of Galloway. Alan is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  11. John Marshal. John is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  12. William Marshal (a famous knight!). William is the 18th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  13. Hugh de Neville. Hugh is the 19th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  14. William Longespée (King John's illegitimate half brother). William is the 15th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  15. Robert de Roppesley. He had no children according to Wikitree, although I have seen it claimed otherwise (and indeed that his name should be Robert de Rokkeley). I presume he was the de Roppesley that was knocked down by William Marshall in his 70s in Lincoln, Roppesley having switched sides.
  16. William de Warenne. William is the 16th great grandfather of Dorothy.

These are not all checked in detail by me, and it is hopeful the results can change as wikitree improves. Some links will probably need to be broken because unproven. However the above says something about the ancestry of Dorothy.

Hastings

Some centuries earlier there is the list of 21 confirmed companions of William the Conqueror (21st great grandfather of Dorothy) in 1066 at Hastings (as found for example on Wikipedia):

  1. Robert de Beaumont, later first Earl of Leicester. 21st great grandfather of Dorothy.
  2. Eustace (II), Count of Boulogne. 23rd great grandfather of Dorothy.
  3. William, afterwards third Count of Evreux. Grandson of Walter, but he had no children.
  4. Geoffrey of Mortagne, afterwards Count of Perche. 19th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  5. William Fitz Osbern, afterwards first Earl of Hereford. 19th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  6. Aimeri, Vicomte of Thouars. 21st great grandfather of Dorothy.
  7. Hugh de Montfort, seigneur of Montfort-sur-Risle. 21st great grandfather of Dorothy.
  8. Walter Giffard, seigneur of Longueville. 18th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  9. Ralph de Toeni, seigneur of Conches. 21st great grandfather of Dorothy.
  10. Hugh de Grandmesnil, seigneur de Grandmesnil. 19th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  11. William de Warenne, afterwards first Earl of Surrey. 19th great grandfather of Dorothy.
  12. William Malet, seigneur of Graville. 21st great grandfather of Dorothy.
  13. Eudes (or Odo), Bishop of Bayeux, afterwards Earl of Kent. (Half brother of William the Conqueror.) No known descendants it seems.
  14. Turstin Fitz Rolf. No known descendants it seems.
  15. Engenulf de Laigle, seigneur of Laigle. 23rd great grandfather of Dorothy.
  16. Geoffrey de Mowbray, Bishop of Coutances. No known descendants it seems.
  17. Robert, Count of Mortain, afterwards first Earl of Cornwall (brother of Bishop Odo, half brother of William the Conqueror). 21st great grandfather of Dorothy.
  18. Wadard, believed to be a follower of the Bishop of Bayeux. There do seem to be lines surviving to today, but no connection so far.
  19. Vital, believed to be a follower of the Bishop of Bayeux.
  20. Goubert d'Auffay, seigneur of Auffay. I have not identified this person.
  21. Humphrey of Tilleul-en-Auge. I have not identified this person.

Lancasters

Lastly, as a Lancaster I am interested in the first family who definitely called themselves Lancasters as a family name, the Barons of Kendal. Even if I can not connect to them through my own Lancasters, here are some via my mother's ancestry:

  • This one looks good but it is hard to confirm the exact father of Lora Fauconberge, who may come from another branch of that family.
  • In this one there is slight doubt about the connection to the Herveys of Ickworth.
  • In this one it is difficult to be sure about the Dacres and their exact connection to the Astleys, although the link itself seems clear.
  • In this one and this one and this one the connections are only to the first Lancaster, and not the other Lancaster barons after him, because it is through his daughter.

Some people will also always ask me about the "House of Lancaster" in the War of the Roses. This was not a "Lancaster family" but a branch of the "Plantagenet" royal family. In theory they might have given Lancaster as a surname to illegitimate children, but they are not known to have originated major Lancaster families in Britain.

However, as it happens my one known descent from Edward III is via John of Gaunt (Ghent), Duke of Lancaster (and born in Gent, Belgium), the founder of that dynasty. This is once again via my mother, and has nothing to do with my surname. Are there any descents from the Lancastrian kings themselves, Henry IV, V and IV? Only via some illegitimate grandchildren of Henry IV. The most well-known ones descend from Henry Grey, Lord of Powys in Wales, who married Antigone, daughter of Humphrey the Duke of Gloucester. There may be more lines in France, descended from Antigone's second marriage or from her cousin Mary, daughter of John Duke of Bedford. Mary had a brother "Richard Bastard of Bedford" who married in England.


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Andrew is a Wiki Genealogy Volunteer following these tags:
ADELMARE
ADIMARI
AMYAS
BELGIUM
I work on Belgian profiles
BOZOUN
BURLINGHAM
CAESAR
surname in England
CESARINI
ELSTONE
EUROARISTO
FLOWERDEW
HASTINGS
LANCASTER
LESTRANGE
PRE-1500
used on G2G
ROSSINGTON
STRANGE
TOWERS
The Towers surname
WODEHOUSE
WRENCH
the Wrench surname from Norfolk


DNA Tested
Andrew Lancaster's DNA has been tested for genealogical purposes. It may be possible to confirm family relationships by comparing test results with Andrew or other carriers of his ancestors' Y-chromosome or mitochondrial DNA. Y-chromosome DNA test-takers in his direct paternal line on WikiTree: Mitochondrial DNA test-takers in the direct maternal line:
  • Andrew Lancaster: Family Tree DNA mtDNA Test Full Sequence, haplogroup T2a1a2, FTDNA kit #22762
It is likely that these autosomal DNA test-takers will share DNA with Andrew:

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On 18 Nov 2018 at 23:49 GMT Maryann (Thompson) Hurt wrote:

Hi Andrew

I deleted your recent addition to Brionne-22's bio, "He was also remembered in later monastic account as having a wife named Albreda."

The bio already states "Watson in The Complete Peerage says Baldwin's wife was Emma or Auberée"

and

"According to the Chronicle of Tintern[2] and the chronicle of Forde Abbey, which was written at a later period, Baldwin's wife was Albreda, so Baldwin may have been married twice, or her name was recorded incorrectly."

Wouldn't you agree that your statement, "He was also remembered in later monastic account as having a wife named Albreda." for which you provided no source, is covered by the sourced statement "According to the Chronicle of Tintern[2] and the chronicle of Forde Abbey, which was written at a later period, Baldwin's wife was Albreda, so Baldwin may have been married twice, or her name was recorded incorrectly"?

Maryann

On 6 Nov 2018 at 08:32 GMT Darlene (Athey) Athey-Hill wrote:

I was able to complete the Geoffrey de Venoix merge. It was hung up in the system.

On 2 Nov 2018 at 19:54 GMT Charles Patterson wrote:

Lancaster-3152 and Lancaster-1279 do not represent the same person because: not the same person

On 1 Nov 2018 at 19:32 GMT Richard Ragland Esq. wrote:

As you say. heir today, gone tomorrow.

Cordially, Dick Ragland

On 29 Oct 2018 at 22:01 GMT Lin (Barwell) Starke wrote:

As always, a huge amount of material sourced by you. well done Andrew. I enjoy reading through your hard work. Lin

On 29 Oct 2018 at 13:37 GMT Liz (Noland) Shifflett wrote:

Hi Andrew! Thank you for your WikiTree contributions. Rather than posting to my profile, might I suggest that Magna Carta Projct policy discussions are better in the Magna Carta Project Google Group, which is open to Affiliates and badged members (see our G2G join post, which is linked from the project page. Discussions about a source in general would be better in G2G. Discussions about a particular profiles, if it is managed by the Magna Carta Project, can be either on the profile itself (which sends a copy via e-mail to the Google Group) or a G2G discussion linked to the profile.

Thanks again, Liz

On 28 Oct 2018 at 18:38 GMT Isabelle Rassinot wrote:

And this confirms how way off base "Pêche" (lat. Persica) is.

On 28 Oct 2018 at 18:29 GMT Isabelle Rassinot wrote:

Medlands has them all under Pecche.

Unless someone can justify the usage of Pêche (which is again extremely odd for a medieval name, Pesche would make a lot more sense, if it were a French name) there is no reason why the burden of proof should be on your side. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3P-S.htm#_Toc389068627

On 28 Oct 2018 at 16:23 GMT Isabelle Rassinot wrote:

Hi Andrew,

though it is claimed that peach trees were brought to France in the Gallo-Roman period... I doubt they were called "pêche" until much more recently. The name might also come from "pêche" as in fishing (this is the accepted origin of the family name Peché or Pechey in France). I have seen some of these "Pêche" profiles and thought they looked artificial. I had never heard of the family until then and they don't seem to be known in France. You will have to look harder I'm afraid. Sorry!

Isabelle

On 28 Oct 2018 at 06:37 GMT Gillian Thomas wrote:

Thanks Andrew for your comment on Wallingford-1. Seems reasonable to me, but I'll follow up in the England google group.

more comments


Queen Victoria Andrew is 34 degrees from Rosa Parks, 19 degrees from Anne Tichborne and 20 degrees from Victoria of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland on our single family tree. Login to find your connection.

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